Hell Question

[J.Davis]

What if morality is more a focus upon a perfect person, Christ Jesus, than a perfect system or moral code?

Thanks Bart!

Hi B.W!

Yes, that is my feeling…But I did not include a lot of technical stuff in my post on purpose. Concerning God’s part as the moral focus for good. I thought it was enough to say that it was God’s Law. I meant for that (along with other supporting scriptures and statements) to give the impression that His Law was his nature (who he is) and that he was the focus of the moral laws (what was right).

Sure is nice to see a direct and to the point statement, cool Bart! (While looking at B.W), I really appreciate it Bart!! (While looking at B.W), Thank-you BART!!!(While looking at B.W). Seems that B.W had the same idea first, he could of had all that thanks but Noooooo…lol

As I stated earlier, I deal with matters of the heart and when I convey a message, most often, I try my best to post something that will keep the interest of as many as possible. Not everyone is so much into precise detail. Some will understand the technical things but when trying to help people with their discussion concerning God, I try my best to reach them in the best way I know how. I have been through extreme emotional trails. I think I must have felt huge doses of just about everything a person can feel. I understand much of the heart. You tend to speak more to mans minds and I love it, you and Bart are two of the main people that drew me to this site, both completely brilliant.

I had that Newton like moral law example when I had my original post. But not everyone knows about the laws of physics so I left it out. I just felt it was better if I used examples that a good number of people could relate to. Most (even if never cheated on) will understand that cheating on someone causes the person that was cheated on great pain. And they will most likely accept that it is fair if they receive the pain they caused. And so they understand how the pain of cheating and accepting responsibility for the pain they caused could relate to causing God pain, getting the pain back and feeling that it's fair.

The things I excluded were excluded on purpose. I wanted to give the message in an easy to understand way that spoke more to the heart than the mind. And I wanted to deliver it in a way that many would understand.

As I said, I take my post very, very seriously. Many people constantly look for a way to dismiss God. I want them to have a way out if they want. So it is important to me that we don’t confuse people that seek to confuse themselves by providing them with the idea that things are confusing if they don’t need to be. I Love your post and your style but I have to take responsibility for what I post. I have to go with what I feel...J.D style…it’s the best there is.

But I think it’s awesome if you and others add your stuff, like with your first post here, that was perfect and really help reinforce the point, awesome. I have considered many things concerning this topic but I just wanted to help humblesmurph.

Thanks B.W! I will continue to think on these things and share my thoughts.

[B. W.]

... I will continue to think on these things and share my thoughts.

Thank you for posting your thoughts too! Feel free to to post more when you can. This is how we learn from each other and grow in the faith!

God Bless!
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[secretfire6]

maybe I can help clear things up.

upon your physical death or death of the body, you are described as "asleep" in Sheol (OT) or Hades (NT). Sheol and Hades mean the grave, hallowed place of the dead and it lies under the earth. Both righteous and unrighteous go here. (hades is not hell)
Second comming of Christ and first Resurrection: first, the beast and false prophet are hurled STILL ALIVE into the lake of fire and sulphur REV 19:20. The rest of the unrighteous are killed and go to Hades. Then the righteous are resurrected and rule as kings for 1,000 years with Christ, the rest of the dead did not come to life until after the 1,000 years REV 20:4,5
Second resurrection and the judgement throne: Satan is thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur with the beast and false prophet to be tormented day and night forever REV 20:10 Then all people are resurrected and judged by deeds. Death and hades go into the lake of fire and whoever was not found written in the book of life go in as well REV 20:11-15

I've heard that the bible uses both the words torment and destruction in regards to those thrown into hell. I doubt there will be physical pain like we know it since we probably wont have bodies by then and the other things tossed in the lake of fire, such as death and hades, aren't even living things. As for literal fire...could be. Something destructive, uncomfortable and all consuming.

[B. W.]

Hi secretfire6,

Noticed on another thread you mentioned that you read the New World Transaltion of the bible, is that correct? If so, do you mind if I ask where you got it?
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[secretfire6]

Hi secretfire6,

Noticed on another thread you mentioned that you read the New World Transaltion of the bible, is that correct? If so, do you mind if I ask where you got it?
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Hey BW

My brother and I were born into the Jahovas witnesses church. Our family left the church when I was about 9 years old, but we still had alot of our old books and bibles. while I was visiting my folks one day I found them and took one of the bibles and another book home. I acctually like their bible, but don't agree with their church or as it is, the watchtower society that runs the church. They are notorius for being......a little off.

[Canuckster1127]

Be careful of the NWT. It's not a reliable translation. The Watchtower society refuses to release the names and credentials of the translaters and further, while it's pretty similar in most passages to better certified ones, there are specific passages where the "translation" is altered to fit JW doctrine. John 1:1 is an example.

[B. W.]

Hi secretfire6,

Noticed on another thread you mentioned that you read the New World Transaltion of the bible, is that correct? If so, do you mind if I ask where you got it?
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Hey BW

My brother and I were born into the Jahovas witnesses church. Our family left the church when I was about 9 years old, but we still had alot of our old books and bibles. while I was visiting my folks one day I found them and took one of the bibles and another book home. I acctually like their bible, but don't agree with their church or as it is, the watchtower society that runs the church. They are notorius for being......a little off.

Yeah the JW stuff is more than a little off suggest you look at the KJV, NKJV, ESV or NASB versions those are the ones I use the most. Must be hard to visit your family, anyways, if your Brithday is coming up or past - Happy Brithday! and enjoy Christmas and the 4 of July too!
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[secretfire6]

Be careful of the NWT. It's not a reliable translation. The Watchtower society refuses to release the names and credentials of the translaters and further, while it's pretty similar in most passages to better certified ones, there are specific passages where the "translation" is altered to fit JW doctrine. John 1:1 is an example.

Yeah I know, I just mentally weed out the JW implants as I read it, like the name Jahova everywhere. The good thing is that they tell you in the back what they changed and why. Again, I think its a very accruate translation, but like all Churches and their Bibles it's badly interpreted in spots. The example of John 1:1 is a good one where thats what the original language is truly trying to say, but when I read it in NWT I don't get any polytheistic vibe from it, I just see it as another way of identifying Christ as devine and existing along side the father even from the beginning. If you didn't already know that John refers to Christ as "the word" then either of the common translations of the verse could lead to confusion (God who is the word was with himself? or God was with another God that was the word?). I honestly don't really remember what the witnesses thought it meant.
One example of it's good features is in 1 Corinthians where most Bibles translate Paul's words as "THOUGH I speak in the tounges of Angels and men..." The NWT corrects it as " IF I speak in the tounges of Angels and men..." tying it to the rest of the context in which that paragraph is spoken.
It's not a perfect Bible, but it corrects alot of things that are screwed up in other versions, yet screws up some things that are correct in other versions. I read all my Bibles carefully (I have 3) and yeah, I don't listen to much of anything the Watchtower Society says lol. thanks for having my back though, I appreciate it

[secretfire6]

Hi secretfire6,

Noticed on another thread you mentioned that you read the New World Transaltion of the bible, is that correct? If so, do you mind if I ask where you got it?
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Hey BW

My brother and I were born into the Jahovas witnesses church. Our family left the church when I was about 9 years old, but we still had alot of our old books and bibles. while I was visiting my folks one day I found them and took one of the bibles and another book home. I acctually like their bible, but don't agree with their church or as it is, the watchtower society that runs the church. They are notorius for being......a little off.

Yeah the JW stuff is more than a little off suggest you look at the KJV, NKJV, ESV or NASB versions those are the ones I use the most. Must be hard to visit your family, anyways, if your Brithday is coming up or past - Happy Brithday! and enjoy Christmas and the 4 of July too!-

hehe ok I'm cool with those and will look up ESV, but ewwwwwww not NASB!!! haha thats number 2 in my list of worst Bibles ever so far. Back when I did a big study on tongues, The only verses used to support the Charismatic use of it were 90% from NASB. Upon taking the verses home and online to compare them with other Bibles and read other commentary, I found the NASB to be heavily and purposely biased for the charismatics. For example, Romans 8:26 in NASB says the the holy spirit intercedes for us when we don't know what to pray with "groanings too deep for words". That left the door open for them to say "it means too deep for human words, so the spirit takes over your voice and speaks God's heavenly language to jesus on your behalf". Every other Bible I read says that those groanings "cannot be uttered" or are "unuttered, unutterable, unspoken". That closes the door for any language or any sound comming from your mouth. Anyway thats a whole other subject
My family is all normal and today none of us are associated with the kingdom hall anymore. My parents got into it after they were married. I think a friend invited them. We fudged a bit though cuz the rest of the family was normal, so we had muted birthdays and christmas. We've all been celebrating the holidays ever since we left and one of my favorites is Halloween, because I get to make stuff! thanks for the love and for watching out for me.

[B. W.]

hehe ok I'm cool with those and will look up ESV, but ewwwwwww not NASB!!! haha thats number 2 in my list of worst Bibles ever so far. Back when I did a big study on tongues, The only verses used to support the Charismatic use of it were 90% from NASB. Upon taking the verses home and online to compare them with other Bibles and read other commentary, I found the NASB to be heavily and purposely biased for the charismatics. For example, Romans 8:26 in NASB says the the holy spirit intercedes for us when we don't know what to pray with "groanings too deep for words". That left the door open for them to say "it means too deep for human words, so the spirit takes over your voice and speaks God's heavenly language to jesus on your behalf". Every other Bible I read says that those groanings "cannot be uttered" or are "unuttered, unutterable, unspoken". That closes the door for any language or any sound comming from your mouth. Anyway thats a whole other subject

My family is all normal and today none of us are associated with the kingdom hall anymore. My parents got into it after they were married. I think a friend invited them. We fudged a bit though cuz the rest of the family was normal, so we had muted birthdays and christmas. We've all been celebrating the holidays ever since we left and one of my favorites is Halloween, because I get to make stuff! thanks for the love and for watching out for me.

Hi Secertfire6,

Glad to hear you and your family left the JW’s!

AS for the NASB - it is a fine translation but has its limits. However, we, should never limit the Holy Spirit’s work and prayers in our lives. As the old hillbilly proverb goes, “Don’t throw out the baby with the bath water!”

As for more information on Hell and soul sleep – have you checked out John Ankerbergs site at http://www.jashow.org/bio.htm ? Or CRAM website? The soul sleep doctrine if very JW’ish – check out these websites for more details on the JW doctrine. Might help answer one of your questions. If you have anymore on this topic of hell and soul sleep – let us know.

Stay Blest!
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[secretfire6]

hey BW

I looked at the first site, but I couldn't find any free info to read. everything i clicked on was for his books or dvd's for sale..unless I wasnt looking in the right place, but I though I clicked everywhere that had to do with the witnesses. I don't know why the Bible describes the dead as "asleep" or whether it's talking about the soul or the body and whther its literally asleep or not..i just don't know. Does it say "asleep" in every version and translation?

[B. W.]

hey BW

I looked at the first site, but I couldn't find any free info to read. everything i clicked on was for his books or dvd's for sale..unless I wasnt looking in the right place, but I though I clicked everywhere that had to do with the witnesses. I don't know why the Bible describes the dead as "asleep" or whether it's talking about the soul or the body and whther its literally asleep or not..i just don't know. Does it say "asleep" in every version and translation?

Sory about tthat - must of copied the wrong link - meant to post tis link http://carm.org/jehovahs-witnesses and another these Utube Videos from Ankerberg

http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/categ ... 34Ad3AMkM4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ktR8XHtcrs

Sorry about that... These may help in you to find answers...

As for the use of sleep in the bible when referring to a state of physical death, it is used as both a metaphor and analogy of a person’s body after death looking like the body is asleep and at rest. This has nothing to do with one’s spiritual being after death being likewise asleep. Both OT and NT support a person’s judgment after death, residing in another location alive and cognizant either in Sheol’s Hell or Sheol’s Paradise in the OT or in the NT Sheol’s Hell or in heaven with the Lord. The use of sleep is used as a metaphor or analogy picture of mortal death – that’s all. The mortal body returns to dust in the grave but the spirit returns to God who gave it to be judged (Heb 9:27).
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[secretfire6]

sorry for the late response. life has been crazy and i lost my interent for about 3 days this past week.

VERY nice site. I knew alot of those things already but a few were new and very suprising. I did not know they denied that Christ rose from the dead or that he was part of the trinity. Thats the entire spine of christianity. In many ways the JW's are like judaism...that don't believe Yahoshua was the messiah. It's almost funny how I can read the NWT even with their tweaks in it and still not believe the things that they do.

I've allways wondered if thats what it meant by "asleep". the death of the body and finality of the old life. That verse in Revelation about the saints under the alter of God asking when their blood would be avenged is proof that the spirit exists and is concious after physical death. It also proves that the spirits are aware of the passing of time since they ask "How much longer?" It brings up a new question. Will our spirits and resurrected, glorious bodies still be time bound??? Are the angels time bound? Is God the only entity that exists outside of time? HMMMMMM

[drakengold]

I had always thought that whoever ends up in hell, aren't there by mistake, that they deserve it. So, it makes sense hell isn't a torture chamber. Because why should people deserve everlasting suffering not for being evil, but just for not being a Christian. Some people claim early Christians invented hell to convert people, to scare people into converting. Paul never taught how to avoid hell, and being saved had nothing to do about avoiding hell, just about being freed from power of sin. I heard there once was a preacher who preached there wasn't a hell, but all the people in his church abandoned him. It seems Christians like to hear about non-Christians suffering in hell. Old Testament only teaches hell as being the grave. I've always doubted my salvation, and feared hell, but if my name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life, then I'm suppose to be predestined to not go to hell. Since that Book was written before I was born, and if I'm saved it is despite of all my sins. I can't outsin His grace. But if I do go to hell, I'm certain it isn't a torture chamber, because I assume God is a fair God, and much worse sinners go to heaven. And we are told to love our enemies, why should God torture His enemies for eternity in hell?

[neo-x]

by drakengold » Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:52 am

I had always thought that whoever ends up in hell, aren't there by mistake, that they deserve it. So, it makes sense hell isn't a torture chamber. Because why should people deserve everlasting suffering not for being evil, but just for not being a Christian. Some people claim early Christians invented hell to convert people, to scare people into converting. Paul never taught how to avoid hell, and being saved had nothing to do about avoiding hell, just about being freed from power of sin. I heard there once was a preacher who preached there wasn't a hell, but all the people in his church abandoned him. It seems Christians like to hear about non-Christians suffering in hell. Old Testament only teaches hell as being the grave. I've always doubted my salvation, and feared hell, but if my name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life, then I'm suppose to be predestined to not go to hell. Since that Book was written before I was born, and if I'm saved it is despite of all my sins. I can't outsin His grace. But if I do go to hell, I'm certain it isn't a torture chamber, because I assume God is a fair God, and much worse sinners go to heaven. And we are told to love our enemies, why should God torture His enemies for eternity in hell?

It seems Christians like to hear about non-Christians suffering in hell.

May be...you cant be sure of that, because a lot of Christians aren't happy to hear that either.

I've always doubted my salvation, and feared hell, but if my name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life, then I'm suppose to be predestined to not go to hell.

There is no such thing is a predestination, God wants everyone to be saved and that would make a supposedly long list and the book would have everyone's name in it. IMO the lamb's book is updated in real time. for example if my name is in it and i lose my mind and kill someone in rage and refuse to repent, well my name will not be there anymore, it will be rubbed off. And if i never knew God and my name wasn't in his book then by accepting Jesus my names gets in that book.

Since that Book was written before I was born, and if I'm saved it is despite of all my sins.

can you please quote a verse so it will be easy to know where you are coming from?

I can't outsin His grace.

Not sure what you mean by that. I understand that our sins and for that matter our good works can't earn us grace, if this is what you meant.

But if I do go to hell, I'm certain it isn't a torture chamber, because I assume God is a fair God, and much worse sinners go to heaven. And we are told to love our enemies, why should God torture His enemies for eternity in hell?

Hmm... well Jesus quoted multiple times in the gospels about hell, terms like "torment, weeping, gnashing of teeth". i'm sure it is to some extent torture, but then i don't think it s physical torture. no. may be, but since the human body will be transformed. I do not know what kind of torment would be in hell. but it will be, that I am sure of.

and much worse sinners go to heaven.

who are you referring to? all sin when repented is erased by God, no sinner is going to enter the kingdom of God without repentance and a new birth in spirit.

And we are told to love our enemies, why should God torture His enemies for eternity in hell?

Your logic is flawed here, my friend, sinners are not God's enemies. no, they can choose to oppose God but to God they are disobeying creation. not enemies. they will be judged as will be every Christian. each man shall get the reward of his works. I think you are more occupied by the torture in hell than the grace and love that is shown to the sinner. Bible, to my knowledge is the only book that promises salvation to a sinner. Do you know that Islam's Quran, doesn't even have the word "salvation" in it, good things are promised to good people only. it is the bible that opens up for a sinner, to show God's eternal love. And to conclude, God's purpose is not torture, it is simple. what you sow, you reap, and this is for those who fail to see the grace of God in which what the sinner sowed, Jesus reaped on the cross. because even if people can be good without knowing God, doesn't mean they are free from sin and it is this blind trust in the goodness of one that ultimately results in a life without faith and God. And because the "Price/wages of sin is death" all are condemned, unless they repent.