Some genesis flood questions

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FearlessLlearsy
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Re: Some genesis flood questions

Post by FearlessLlearsy »

I'm sorry to say, but dear Rich's article does not provide help for me answering my question. He briefly mentions Canaan with no geological evidence whatsoever? y:-?

Please highlight part of his article to prove me wrong. y/:)

Also, its FRUSTRATING of the fact that he does not expose all the definitions of Hebrew words. He lists the ones only who favors his argument:
In reality, the Hebrew word ma‛al, translated "higher" really means "upward." So, in essence, the text is saying that the flood was 15 cubits (20 feet) deep, in total, not 15 cubits above the mountains. In addition, the Hebrew word har really refers most often to hills rather than mountains.
Now, i dont even know the qualifications of Rich Deem that he speaks with so much authority on the matter of Hebrew language interpretation, but i invite you as well to see what a Hebrew Scholar has to say about the narrative of Noah's story.

John Nevin Andrews Professor of Old Testament Interpretation Old Testament Department
Perhaps the most important kind of biblical evidence for a universal Flood is the specific all-inclusive terminology found within the Genesis account itself. The late Gerhard Hasel has provided a careful treatment of this terminology in three penetrating studies in previous issues of Origins (Hasel 1974, 1975, 1978), and therefore I need not go into detail in this article. Eight different terms or phrases in Genesis 6-9, most echoing their counterparts in the world-wide creation account of Genesis 1-2, indicate universality.
First, the term haÉares "the earth," occurring 46 times in the Flood narrative (Genesis 6:12, 13, 17, etc.), always without any accompanying genitive of limitation, clearly parallels the usage of the same term in the account of world-wide, universal creation in Genesis 1:1, 2, 10. (While the term at times elsewhere may be used without a genitive and still in context be limited in scope to a certain "land," the explicit link to creation in the Flood account (see especially Genesis 6:6, 7) clearly gives a universal context for its usage in Genesis 6-9.)
Some have argued that if Moses had wished to indicate the entire world, he would have used the Hebrew term tebel, which means the world as a whole, or dry land in the sense of continents. This word is never used in the Flood narrative. But it should be pointed out that tebel is never used in the entire Pentateuch, including the creation account. In fact, the term appears no where in the narrative portions of the Hebrew Bible, but only in poetic texts (39 times) usually as a poetic synonym in parallel with haÉares "the earth." Thus this argument from silence does not adequately consider the contextual and poetic use of terminology, and carries little weight.
A second expression, "upon the face of all the earth" Ìal-penê kol-haÉares (Genesis 7:3; 8:9), clearly alludes to the first occurrence of the same phrase in the universal context of creation (Genesis 1:29; cf. Genesis 1:2 for a related universal expression), and thus here also implies a universality of the same dimension, i.e., the entire surface of the global mass. While the shortened term "all the earth" (kol-haÉares) by itself may have a limited meaning elsewhere when indicated by the immediate context (see Exodus 10:5, 15; Numbers 22:5, 11; 1 Kings 4:34; 10:24; 2 Chronicles 36:23; Genesis 41:57), the immediate context of the Flood story is the universal sinfulness of humankind whom God had made and created (Genesis 6:6,7) to have dominion over "all the earth" (Genesis 1:26), and the succeeding context is the universal dispersal of man after the Tower of Babel "upon the face of all the earth" (Genesis 11:4, 8, 9). In each of the four occurrences of the phrase "upon the face of all the earth" in Genesis outside the Flood story (Genesis 1:29; 11:4, 8, 9), it clearly has the universal sense of the entire land surface of the globe, and there is nothing in the Flood narrative to indicate any less universality. (It should be also noted that the one place in Genesis where in context a similar phrase "upon all the face of the earth" is not universal [the famine mentioned in Genesis 41:56], the Hebrew has a change in word order from elsewhere in Genesis [Ìal-kol penê haÉares]).
Third, the phrase "face of the ground" penê haÉadamah (five times in the Flood narrative, 7:4, 22, 23; 8:8, 13), occurs in parallel with universal terms we have just noted, "the earth" (7:23) and "face of all the earth" (8:9); and this phrase "face of the ground" likewise harks back to its first usage in the universal context of creation (Genesis 2:6).
Fourth, the term kol-basar "all flesh" occurs 12 times in Genesis 6-9 (Genesis 6:12, 13, 17, 19; 7:16, 21; 8:17; 9:11, 15, 16, 17). The word kol "all" (which can occasionally express less than totality if the context demands), before an indeterminate noun with no article or possessive suffix, as here in Genesis 6-9, indicates totality. God's announcement to destroy "all flesh" (Genesis 6:13, 17) and the narrator's comment that "all flesh" died (Genesis 7:21-22), except the inhabitants of the ark, indicates universal destruction. The one occurrence of kol plus the determinate noun ha basar "all the flesh" (in Genesis 7:15) likewise indicates totality as well as unity.
Fifth, the expression "every living thing" (kol-hahay) of all flesh (Genesis 6:19), is another expression of totality; in 7:4, 23, the similar term kol-hayeqûm means literally, "all existence." This term is given further universal dimensions by the addition of the clause harking back to creation — "all existence that I have made" (7:4) — and by the exclusive statement "Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark remained alive" (7:23). As Hasel puts it:

There is hardly any stronger way in Hebrew to emphasize total destruction of 'all existence' of human and animal life on earth than the way it has been expressed. The writer of the Genesis Flood story employed terminology, formulae, and syntactical structures of the type that could not be more emphatic and explicit in expressing his concept of a universal, world-wide flood (Hasel 1975, p 86).

Sixth, the phrase "under the whole heaven" (tahat kol-haššamayim, Genesis 7:19), is used six times in the OT outside of the Flood narrative, and always with a universal meaning (see Deuteronomy 2:25; 4:19; Job 28:24; 37:3; 41:11; Daniel 9:12). For example, the phrase is used to describe God's omniscience: "For He looks to the ends of the earth and sees under the whole heavens" (Job 28:24). Again, it depicts God's sovereignty: "Whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine" (Job 41:11 KJV). (Note that the usage in Deuteronomy 2:25, describing "the nations under the whole heaven," is further qualified and limited by the phrase "who shall hear the report of you," and thus is potentially universal and not an exception to the universal sense.)
The universal phrase "under the whole heaven" or "under all the heavens" also universalizes the phrase "under heaven" (Genesis 6:17) in this same Flood context. The word "heaven" alone can have a local meaning [e.g., 1 Kings 18:45], but here the context is clearly universal. Ecclesiastes, which contains numerous allusions to creation, likewise utilizes the term "under heaven" with a universal intention (Ecclesiastes 1:13; 2:3; 3:1; cf. the parallel universal expression "under the sun" in Ecclesiastes 1:3, 9; 2:11, 17; etc.).
In the Flood account this phrase "under the whole heaven" is part of two forceful verses describing the extent of the Flood: "and the waters prevailed so mightily upon the earth that all the high mountains under the whole heaven were covered. The waters prevailed fifteen cubits upward, and the mountains were covered" (7:19, 20). Critical scholar John Skinner notes that 7:19, 20 "not only asserts its [the flood's] universality, but so to speak proves it, by giving the exact height of the waters above the highest mountains" (Skinner 1930/1956, p 165).
The biblical language here simply cannot be explained in terms of a local sky, and certainly cannot refer to the local mountains being covered by snow, as some proponents of a local flood suggest. H.C. Leupold points out that the writer of vs. 19 is not content with a single use of kol ("all") in "all the high mountains," but "since 'all' is known to be used in a relative sense, the writer removes all possible ambiguity by adding the phrase 'under all the heavens.' A double 'all' (kol) cannot allow for so relative a sense. It almost constitutes a Hebrew superlative. So we believe that the text disposes of the question of the universality of the Flood" (Leupold 1942, p 301-302).
On an end note,Thank you for using part of your time to discuss with me :esmile:
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neo-x
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Re: Some genesis flood questions

Post by neo-x »

I actually think the flood could be global, otherwise no sense of saving the animals. If the polar ice caps melt, that would result in water rising all over the globe so a possibility is open. Plus, there have been ice ages before so a universal flood is possible. I read rich's article, one thing i would like to say is that I agree, earth doesn't necessarily have to be planet earth but land, but was that land local, it can not be concluded from translation alone,

the word "har" even if translated 10 times out of 19 as hills doesn't really mean that in this very instance it means hills as well. as for psalm 104, it is more poetic than literal. I'll give you an example consider psalm 72:5
They shall fear You[a]
As long as the sun and moon endure,
Throughout all generations.
Now, we know that sun will eventually fade out but the comparison given here means the statement will only be held true as long as the sun and moon endures. and since it will fade out, it wont endure, there is no "forever" by this means.

It really boils down to the idea that whether you accept old earth or young earth, both would have different scenarios.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


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Re: Some genesis flood questions

Post by RickD »

Please highlight part of his article to prove me wrong.
I'm not sure what you're looking for. The article talks about where the inhabited world theoretically would have been.
Also, its FRUSTRATING of the fact that he does not expose all the definitions of Hebrew words. He lists the ones only who favors his argument:
If you need definitions of Hebrew words, strongs concordance may help.
Now, i dont even know the qualifications of Rich Deem that he speaks with so much authority on the matter of Hebrew language interpretation, but i invite you as well to see what a Hebrew Scholar has to say about the narrative of Noah's story.
I've heard both yec and oec Hebrew scholars. If you research and come to a decision that yec best fits the evidence, and the bible, then so be it. Just try to be honest and open in your research.

Walter kaiser is one Old testament expert who believes in old earth. Maybe you could do some research on him.
There are plenty of threads on this website pertaining to this topic. I'm sure you could find some answers if you have the time to search.
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Re: Some genesis flood questions

Post by RickD »

Here's an article with some old testament scholars that believe in an old earth.:http://creative2567.blogspot.com/2011/0 ... earth.html
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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