The Christian Walk - a personal testimony

[RickD]

Just two so we can get off the ground here. I'm seriously looking for genuine criticisms and not merely objections based on what you both personally find distasteful.

I'm not sure how you're going to distinguish between genuine criticisms and personal objections. But here goes.

From the web page as previously stated by Jlay:
"Mike moves powerfully in signs, wonders and miracles..."
red flag #1

From the website. clicked on "money"

In a world of uncertainty where financial institutions seems to be collapsing around us.

We need to take a biblical view on what God said about his Kingdom and his financial economic system.

In every Kingdom there is a King and Jesus is the King of the Kingdom of Heaven. His financial system is truly amazing and it will never collapse or go into liquidation.

As a believer we are in the World but NOT of it.

God is not a respecter of persons, but IS a respecter of principals.

So as a believer, how do we operate in His financial system which He has for our lives.

FAITH is how the believer needs to operate. Continual active FAITH.

How is yours?

A believer can have a faith (i.e. that Jesus is the Son of God) without moving IN FAITH.

Get the picture, ponder this and let it sink deep down in your heart.

Active FAITH, overcoming FAITH, not just saving FAITH (that FAITH God gave you in the first place)

 The Lord wants you to Prosper now.

Psalm 118 v 25 ' Save now, I pray O Lord
  O Lord, I pray send now prosperity '

. Lets Believe THE WORD. Stay in ThE WORD.

Is this really what the bible means?
Red flag #2

I'm aware that this church - and my own church, for that matter - is not shy in asking God for wealth, financial security, etc. I personally don't do this. I couldn't. But are they bad people when God says to ask anything in his name? John 16:23-24

Danny, your own criticism of the way this church asks for money should throw up a red flag. The reason why they "aren't shy" about asking God for wealth, is because they are a word-faith, name-it-and-claim-it, prosperity gospel church. If the church group is truly of God, and their organization God's will, they won't need to plead for money. God will provide them with all they need.
Red flag #3

3.If you grab hold of the Word and have faith in God or the faith of God you CAN get what the Word says.

Their god is a genie in a lamp. Just rub the lamp, and say the magic words, and god will do your bidding. Or, maybe a better analogy is their god is a vending machine. Give them your money, make a selection, and voila, all kinds of goodies appear.
Red flag #4

In the statement of faith in one of their links:

I believe in divine healing. Healing is for the physical ills of the human body and is wrought by the power of God through the prayer of faith, and by the laying on of hands. It is provided for in the atonement of Christ, and is the privilege of every member of the Church today (Mark 16:18; James 5:15; 1 Peter 2:24; Matt. 8:17; Isa. 53:4,5)

Is the privilege of every member of the Church today? Tell that to my Dad, Bart's Dad, and every other person who died in Christ. They died because they lacked faith? Phooey!!! That's another word-faith line used to manipulate the undiscerned.
Red flag #5

[DannyM]

Specific criticisms

-The flyer (which I linked) that exhaults the person, and baits people in with the promise of signs.
-Your report of how tongues are being used.

I disagree that mentioning the person necessarily means they are seeking to elevate him. Again, it is a bit difficult not to mention him! So I declare your judgement too harsh. In my view, of course.

I've mentioned the issue with tongues. I've explained why I decided to stop protesting.

[DannyM]

B.W.,

Thank you so much! I appreciate you rejoicing with me.

God bless, B.W.

[DannyM]

Rick,

I just posted a lengthy reply and seem to have lost it 'in the system'!

Please bear with me.

[RickD]

Here's a good article IMO, that explains slain in the spirit, and if it's biblical. It's a little long, but makes some great points. Especially about discernment, and the occult.
http://www.biblical-pentecostals.org/slain.htm

[Canuckster1127]

The presence of counterfeits is not by itself an argument against the existence of a genuine original.

[jlay]

OK Bart, I think everyone here would agree with that. In fact I said as much earlier but not in the same words.

Have you taken the time to read Rick's resonse to specific criticims, and have you viewed the flyer or any of the videos linked. And if so, what do you think?

[Canuckster1127]

I have.

I've learned and grown throughout my Christian walk in the context of many different churches and traditions. Some have included churches similar in many regards to what is being examined here now. I wouldn't choose to be a part of them today because I've come to understand some things differently than I did then and I'm happy to discuss those issues with any who care (and I don't assume many do) about what I think on something like that.

I'm very careful however to avoid presuming when someone tells me that they've met God in a more deep and personal way, that it's my responsibility to examine every element to where I discourage them from continuing to move forward in that deepening relationship. There are seasons all of us go through in growing that are not what we would choose to be engaged in as more mature (from our perspective anyway) believers.

I have concerns about many elements of the Charismatic/Pentecostal movement and they come from deep personal experience that is greater than many due to my attendance at Oral Roberts University, considered by many to be the Charismatic Crossroads. I was present at and observed many elements of the Toronto Blessing (I grew up near Toronto).

So what is of more importance to me in looking to this discussion is where Danny is in his faith and personal walk. I've known Danny through the context of this board and observed a great deal of soul searching and growth in his life as well as some pain and questioning. Frankly, I'm genuinely excited for him that he's found something that is moving in his life toward making God more real and more personal for him. I suspect you and others on this thread are as well. Maybe I'm just broader in my perspective, but I think there's a time and a place for all things and it's certainly appropriate to answer questions and have discussions as long as Danny feels edified by them. It's a subtle line to cross, to move from giving cautions to then giving direction as to whether there can be any good in a particular context that is different than our own.

I think Jesus had it right when he told his disciples not to rebuke others who were bringing the message of God to others even if it wasn't in the exact same way that Jesus' disciples were doing it. I also suspect Gamaliel had it right when he cautioned those within Judaism of persecuting the apostles lest they find themselves fighting against God.

I'm certainly not perfect in that regard. I have some pretty strong opinions and I'm not afraid to express them. I think though that there's a difference between doing that in principle and then doing it when someone is personally involved and invested and coming to learn more about the reality of God in their lives.

As far as I'm concerned, I think Danny is aware of some of the concerns that are expressed here. I think we should support him as friends and rejoice in the report that he feels closer to God than he has before and allow him some time and grace to work through this before we seek to guide him in other directions that we're not close enough to walk with him in.

That's my opinion and I'm giving it simply because you asked.

I rejoice with Danny in what's happening for him and I trust God and Danny that things will come into context for him over time and don't feel overly obligated to analyze things beyond that now unless Danny wants my opinion on it.

[jlay]

Very good feedback Bart.

I'm very careful however to avoid presuming when someone tells me that they've met God in a more deep and personal way, that it's my responsibility to examine every element to where I discourage them from continuing to move forward in that deepening relationship.

Certainly a person can 'meet' God or grow deep despite the circumstance. I know that is even true for myself. In fact people can be and are saved despite methods that I would consider unsound. (I know salvation isn't the issue here) I don't think we should be quick to throw water on someone when they have an 'experience.' And as I said before, I do not want to even come close to condemning an actual move of God. I'm confident we can all pray for Danny in this situation. And I'm sure he will take our concerns to heart.

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come. And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all. (Eph 1:17-23)

[RickD]

The presence of counterfeits is not by itself an argument against the existence of a genuine original.

(And let me say that the direction of the fall neither validates nor negates the current craze. One woman concluded after a discussion on the issue that falling forward made the difference between the true and the false experience. That's not true either. She has fallen into the current trap of assuming that since there is an imitation there must be a real. You can counterfeit a $5 bill, but you can't counterfeit a $3 bill. You have to create one. And while we're on the topic, let me mention that it does not matter how long a person "stays down." Again, undiscerning Christians have tried to create a standard for judging the valid and invalid experiences.)

[DannyM]

"Mike moves powerfully in signs, wonders and miracles..."
red flag #1

Not a red flag. Just your opinion.

From the website. clicked on "money"

In a world of uncertainty where financial institutions seems to be collapsing around us.
We need to take a biblical view on what God said about his Kingdom and his financial economic system.
In every Kingdom there is a King and Jesus is the King of the Kingdom of Heaven. His financial system is truly amazing and it will never collapse or go into liquidation.
As a believer we are in the World but NOT of it.
God is not a respecter of persons, but IS a respecter of principals.
So as a believer, how do we operate in His financial system which He has for our lives.
FAITH is how the believer needs to operate. Continual active FAITH.
How is yours?
A believer can have a faith (i.e. that Jesus is the Son of God) without moving IN FAITH.
Get the picture, ponder this and let it sink deep down in your heart.
Active FAITH, overcoming FAITH, not just saving FAITH (that FAITH God gave you in the first place)
 The Lord wants you to Prosper now.
Psalm 118 v 25 ' Save now, I pray O Lord
  O Lord, I pray send now prosperity '

. Lets Believe THE WORD. Stay in ThE WORD.

Is this really what the bible means?Red flag #2

Yes, it is biblical to them. Can you biblically prove otherwise?

"

I'm aware that this church - and my own church, for that matter - is not shy in asking God for wealth, financial security, etc. I personally don't do this. I couldn't. But are they bad people when God says to ask anything in his name? John 16:23-24

Danny, your own criticism of the way this church asks for money should throw up a red flag. The reason why they "aren't shy" about asking God for wealth, is because they are a word-faith, name-it-and-claim-it, prosperity gospel church. If the church group is truly of God, and their organization God's will, they won't need to plead for money. God will provide them with all they need.
Red flag #3

Splendid. That's your view, Rick.

3.If you grab hold of the Word and have faith in God or the faith of God you CAN get what the Word says.

Their god is a genie in a lamp. Just rub the lamp, and say the magic words, and god will do your bidding. Or, maybe a better analogy is their god is a vending machine. Give them your money, make a selection, and voila, all kinds of goodies appear.
Red flag #4

Nope, I don't see that from the above. It's entirely biblical. You're embelishing the meaning of what is being said. I'm not seeing genies and lamps here. And franklly I'm baffled how you are reading this!

In the statement of faith in one of their links:

I believe in divine healing. Healing is for the physical ills of the human body and is wrought by the power of God through the prayer of faith, and by the laying on of hands. It is provided for in the atonement of Christ, and is the privilege of every member of the Church today (Mark 16:18; James 5:15; 1 Peter 2:24; Matt. 8:17; Isa. 53:4,5)

Is the privilege of every member of the Church today? Tell that to my Dad, Bart's Dad, and every other person who died in Christ. They died because they lacked faith? Phooey!!! That's another word-faith line used to manipulate the undiscerned.
Red flag #5

[/quote]

Emotional outburst. That is not what is implied. Your point is fallacious, Rick.

So, still no biblical refutation.

Carry on, folks.

[DannyM]

Jlay wrote this earlier on in the thread:

I've been to these assemblies, and events, where charasmatic experiences are going on. And I have very little doubt that much is simply self-induced euphoria. I also believe that some of it is genuine. I had a friend healed at the Brownsville revival that went on to give up his career and serve faithfully in the Brazilian mission field. But, also in rare instances I have wondered if some of this was demonic. I once witnessed a man babbling, stammering, and then going into convulsive fits. It would have complied more with how the bible describes demonic possession versus being filled with the Spirit. The problem I see made by Danny and BW is contrasting the 'stiff upper lip' approach to the charasmatic. More on this later.

Jlay has a friend who was healed. So, healings happen, yes?

Hey, Jlay, your red flags regarding this outfit are not my red flags. I know what I saw at this revival meeting. I know what over-exuberance is and what the holy ghost is. Football matches? Try a Glasgow Rangers vs Glasgow Celtic match and experience real atmosphere-induced adrenaline. So, lest you presume to have the inside track on my encounter with the holy ghost, let's establish that I know how to distinguish between an adrenaline rush and the holy ghost.

I've repeatedly asked you both to provide biblical refutation rather than your own subjective personal distaste. You have both failed to do this and have now reached the point where you are merely repeating ramblings about red flags. Please, brothers, let's get a little more 'concrete' from here on in...

[DannyM]

Here's a good article IMO, that explains slain in the spirit, and if it's biblical. It's a little long, but makes some great points. Especially about discernment, and the occult.
http://www.biblical-pentecostals.org/slain.htm

Rick, I've never mentioned anyone being "slain in the spirit". I have no idea why this article is linked here. Are you just adding your own label to what you have seen from a flyer?

[DannyM]

I believe in divine healing. Healing is for the physical ills of the human body and is wrought by the power of God through the prayer of faith, and by the laying on of hands. It is provided for in the atonement of Christ, and is the privilege of every member of the Church today (Mark 16:18; James 5:15; 1 Peter 2:24; Matt. 8:17; Isa. 53:4,5)

Is the privilege of every member of the Church today? Tell that to my Dad, Bart's Dad, and every other person who died in Christ. They died because they lacked faith? Phooey!!! That's another word-faith line used to manipulate the undiscerned.
Red flag #5

My Gran died. She was a God-fearing Christian. She was riddled with cancer. But am I offended that some outfit believes that God answers prayers and heals people? Of course I am not. There is strong evidence to suggest that God in fact does heal some and not others. This may be unpalatable for some, but that won't negate anything. None of this makes God a bad God, since it's not too difficult to understand that he might well save and preserve some and not others for this life. It means not that he loves these others any less. After all, all Christians are destined to be with the Father in his glory sooner or later.

[DannyM]

Bart,

Trust you to come along and balance the whole discussion right out! I appreciate your insight very much.

I used to go around saying charismatics are not to be trusted, etc. I used to think all tongues were people showing off and/or babbling needlessly. I'm glad you spotted that I am aware of biblical error with regards to my own church. It was also apparent at the revival: no interpetation of tongues. I've been taking stock for the past few weeks maybe months. Here are some questions I've asked myself:

Does a disregard for Paul's call for interpretors mean the whole church is satan-led?

Is it possible that the holy spirit can still be present if there are no interpretations? Or would the holy spirit turn around and go the other way in disgust?

My local estate agent is a charismatic chap. Does this automatically mean that he hasn't got a good property to tell me about?

My fruit & veg market-stool man is a charismatic old-boy from London. Does this mean he hasn't got some good fruit to tell me about?

Here's the kick: Am I to disregard my personal encounter with God because my church sometimes errs from the word? Am I to simply forget the peace that God brought to me in my own front room and at a meeting because the revival pastor's website claims he moves powerfully in the spirit? Or because he has charisma?

Is it unbiblical to claim a man moves powerfully in the spirit? Is it idolotary? I don't believe it is on the face of it.

Blessings, Bart