SALVATION ISSUE

[zacchaeus]

Let me top Paul and go straight to JESUS...

"They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8:13)

...in time of temptation, to what? to SIN! Sin when full grown equals death, well we already know because of sin it self we must die a physical death, but what about spiritual death??? Jesus said they believe for a while, and well if they believe they are saved right (John 3:16), believeth, continual present (participle) spiritual state, fall away... fall away from what? SALVATION!!! Or Faith, which is how we obtain SALVATION!!!

The Persic version renders it, "in the time of hearing they have faith"; and such sort of hearers there are, who, whilst they are hearing, assent to what they hear, but when they are gone, either forget it, or, falling into bad company, are prevailed upon to doubt of it, and disbelieve it. The Arabic version renders it, "they believe for a small time"; their faith do not continue long, nor their profession of it, both are soon dropped:

and in the time of temptation fall away: "or go back", as the Vulgate Latin version, they draw back unto perdition; or "forsake that", as the Arabic version reads, the word, they have heard, and received, their faith in it, and profession of it: "and soon become apostates", as the Persic version renders it. By "the time of temptation".

actually lets look at...
(Luke 8:11-15)

"The seed is the word of God." How could the devil ever take the word out of our hearts if we are secure. The only way is to believe (no doubt is present and continuous, no way past tense) and be saved (again present tense and sounds a lot like if we choose to believe and choose to be saved). Faith in Christ the sum and substance of the word salvation is connected; and Satan being an enemy to the salvation of souls, does all he can to hinder their faith in him. Tries as if to imply if he succeeds then we would belong to him and not that of our Father. If its impossible for him to succeed it be hard for anyone to go to hell. "which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away". Again those that for a while believe (continuously), in time of temptation to what? (SIN) Fall away. How can you believe for a while and then "Fall away", if one you never were saved in which you could not fall, or how can you fall at all period if its not possible to fall? You say were brought into perfection yet we see we bring no fruit to perfection. So as soon as they hear the word they go about their business, or they do not bring forth perfect and full fruit to the ripening: or, they begin, but they do not bring to an end. If they don't finish that means they lost it somewhere in between from where they started. "having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience". Notice it says "keep it". Continue presently. From this we may learn that the perseverance of the saints, as it is termed, necessarily implies that they continue to bring forth fruit to the glory of God. Those who are not fruitful are not in a state of perseverance. So Who - keep it - Not like the highway side: And bring forth fruit - Not like the thorny ground: With perseverance - Not like the stony.

I think that is a beautiful picture of our Heavenly Father. He gives us free choice to decide if we want to stay with Him or not, but when we decide to come back He is willing to embrace us. Yes we are adopted into God's family when we are saved, but that does not mean we can't give up our birthright and go back to a lost status.

While the necessity of a holy walk is insisted upon, as the effect and evidence of the knowledge of God in Christ Jesus, the opposite error of self-righteous pride is guarded against with equal care. All who walk near to God, in holiness and righteousness, are sensible that their best days and duties are mixed with sin. God has given testimony to the sinfulness of the world, by providing a sufficient, effectual Sacrifice for sin, needed in all ages; and the sinfulness of believers themselves is shown, by requiring them "continually to confess their sins", and to apply by faith to the blood of that Sacrifice. Let us plead guilty before God, be humble, and willing to know the worst of our case. Let us honestly "confess all our sins" in their full extent, relying wholly on his mercy and truth through the righteousness of Christ, for a free and full forgiveness, and our deliverance from the power and practice of sin.

Also note: some of my posts are (3rd person) from my facebook thread and notes and conversations I've had with other people pertaining to SALVATION

I asked if a Christian of 30 yrs in ministry (saved) all of a sudden makes a conscience decision to denounces God, curse Him, take His name in vain, do drugs, get drunk, blaspheme, cheat on His wife, live an adulterous life, maybe even become a satanist, and never repents, would he go to hell or Heaven if he died during or some time after before he "chooses" to repent?

The two answers I received from both of you pertaining to the question was 1) God is all knowing and chooses the time of death; if the Christian died he would go to Heaven (OSAS). 2) Well, if he was doing these things then he was never saved in the first place and would go to hell.

How can he be saved and unsaved at the exact same time. This is impossible in all aspects. I would have to say he chose to loose his salvation, not that he was never saved, because he chose to sin. Sin = death and must be punished.

John 5:24. He that heareth (root verb, consider what is or has been said) my word and (a primary particle, stipulation) believeth (verb as in action, be committed unto, continuance and contingent upon the promise) on Him that sent me hath (present tense) eternal life and shall not (future tense) come into condemnation (condemnation is Hell) but is passed (present perfect tense meaning you can never go back, as long as you "believe") from death unto life.

Let me leave you with one last thought, I pray you meditate on. Its in the beginning of scriptures none the less.

(Gen. 2:16-17)

Adam was righteous and resided in the garden of Eden, a paradise garden only for the righteous. He was expelled from it after he sinned and died, as warned. Adam died spiritually the same day he sinned, yet lived physically many years afterwords to be 930 years old (Gen. 5:5). As God’s first statement about sin was issued to a righteous man concerning his own spiritual death through sin, the devil’s first lie was devised to make Eve dismiss this eternal truth, which led to her disobedience and spiritual death. Please note that Eve never sinned until she was deceived into thinking that sin would not bring about her own spiritual death. Furthermore, the doctrine of eternal security is identical to the devil’s first lie, that is, the righteous will not die spiritually through sin: (Gen. 3:4). You can see the same consequence of disobedience for the righteous in Ezekiel. Clearly, a righteous person can die spiritually because of his sin, which again is the antithesis of the teaching of eternal security. New Testament warnings to the righteous about them dying through sin are repeated, especially by Paul and James.

[Canuckster1127]

It must be a great comfort to God to know when the time comes for Him to assume the Judgement seat that so many will have been there in advance, keeping it warm for Him .....

[zacchaeus]

It must be a great comfort to God to know when the time comes for Him to assume the Judgement seat that so many will have been there in advance, keeping it warm for Him .....

What great sarcasm, you are so hilarious. I wonder which judgement seat your talking about, lest you think there is only one judgement...

(1 Cor 2:15) "But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man."

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

(1 Cor 2:10-16) God has revealed true wisdom to us by his Spirit. Here is a proof of the Divine authority of the Holy Scriptures, 2Pe 1:21. In proof of the Divinity of the Holy Ghost, observe, that he knows all things, and he searches all things, even the deep things of God. No one can know the things of God, but his Holy Spirit, who is one with the Father and the Son, and who makes known Divine mysteries to his church. This is most clear testimony, both to the real Godhead and the distinct person of the Holy Spirit. The apostles were not guided by worldly principles. They had the revelation of these things from the Spirit of God, and the saving impression of them from the same Spirit. These things they declared in plain, simple language, taught by the Holy Spirit, totally different from the affected oratory or enticing words of man's wisdom. The natural man, the wise man of the world, receives not the things of the Spirit of God. The pride of carnal reasoning is really as much opposed to spirituality, as the basest sensuality. The sanctified mind discerns the real beauties of holiness, but the power of discerning and judging about common and natural things is not lost. But the carnal man is a stranger to the principles, and pleasures, and actings of the Divine life. The spiritual man only, is the person to whom God gives the knowledge of his will. How little have any known of the mind of God by natural power! And the apostles were enabled by his Spirit to make known his mind. In the Holy Scriptures, the mind of Christ, and the mind of God in Christ, are fully made known to us. It is the great privilege of Christians, that they have the mind of Christ revealed to them by his Spirit. They experience his sanctifying power in their hearts, and bring forth good fruits in their lives.

We are given power to judge but it better be a righteous judgement (John 7:24), Jesus said, "you will know someone by their fruit, period!!!" but judge righteous judgment; give your sense and judgment of things, according to the truth and evidence of them; and do not find fault with that, which you yourselves allow of, and which Moses and his law, and your own practices, justify. Everyone's so eager to "justify" their sin, but the "FACT" according to scripture which cannot be disputed, must be punished, and always has a consequence. (Gal 6:8). (Rom 6:23) I sin too, but do I die physically and instantly even though that is the wage? NO!!! But if I continue and without repentance, which literally means to turn away from and never do again; which if you do again then you truly never were remorseful and didn't really repent, but if you continue God will turn you over to the own lust of heart into a reprobate mind! (Romans 1:24 & 28). The free gift promised is eternal life contingent upon believing, and we don't even receive the gift until we enter into it, when corruption puts on incorruption!!! (1 Corinth 15:42)

Bottom line, though today's bible surfer in lazy in knowledge and ignorant, we must study our own selves approved "rightly dividing the word of TRUTH"!!! (2 Tim 2:15)
Why people want to argue with the truth and go against scripture, I have no idea. I call it (3c's) content, complacent, and comfortable. When your really SOLD out completely you will offer your entire body a living sacrifice... (Rom 12:1-2)

Most of this boils down to personal convictions, and we cannot condemn anyone we do not have that power; that belongs to the Father only. We can past righteous judgment... and the fruit one bears. We also have a job employed by the LORD and a Christian service duty to witness and share the truth rightly divided. We cannot fault another for where they are in their walk nor what the Holy Spirit is doing in their life and/or what He has or hasn't revealed to them. All I'm accountable for is showing truth backed up with scripture, once that knowledge is revealed its up to the individual what they do with that knowledge for they are accountable for themselves.

[MarcusOfLycia]

Marcus, if God will never forsake us, does that mean if I am a Christian, received salvation and after that I can do all ungodly stuff, would God still never forsake me, would he still accept me to heaven, what if I do not want to repent? Or I mildly repent. Can I go to heaven with ungodly life or by dying in sin. And please do not say that I never trusted God really in the first place. sorry, this is not something you could ever know for anyone, so do not assume this as the base of your reason. You will not have definitive conclusion.

Will God pursue us if we turn from him, to the ends of the earth, yes may be, there is a very good chance that he will, but not always. As Zacchaeus in the above post gave examples and scriptures regarding people who lost their salvation as well as Paul putting so much emphasis on being strong and not losing your prize.

Again, what exactly are we capable of that will turn God's love away from us? What can we do to undo what Christ has done once we accept it? Should we live in fear, knowing that at any moment if we say or do the wrong thing and suddenly die without repenting that we would have no share in heaven?

There's a lot of confusion I think between Salvation and rewards for serving God, which is evidenced by your point about Paul saying not to loose sight of the prize. Do you really think Paul was worried about losing his Salvation? Based on all the reading of the Scripture I've ever done, it seems far more likely that Paul simply wanted to serve God out of love. The prize was to hear 'well done, my good and faithful servant'. Salvation was never in question! Rewards and Salvation are not the same thing. Salvation is NEVER earned and any doctrine that would claim otherwise is from hell. Salvation is a gift, because none of us deserve it and nothing we can do would ever be capable of earning it.

How can someone earn something when all they have to pay for it was given by the person they owe for it?

You are darn right that I don't know if someone has been saved or not, but God surely knows, and it needn't concern me (nor was it relevant to my point). What does concern me is when you suggest that someone can 'loose' their Salvation by 'walking away' from it. This isn't something you can walk away from. Nothing you can do will make the Holy Spirit suddenly leave you. If you could leave, how could we ever know we're in the right with God? Exactly how far do we have to pull on the chain before God suddenly says 'oh well, guess they're destined to hell for eternity because they didn't stick close enough to me'. It is God who initiates our relationships with Him and it is God who maintains them... all we can do is either trust and obey (and not suffer consequences) or ignore and disobey (and suffer discipline).

I don't know what 'mildly repent' means. How can you put a quantifier on something like repentance. Do you mean faking it? I should certainly hope to God you can go to life with an ungodly life if your trust was in God. I hope to God He wasn't lying when He said all our righteousness are filthy rags and it is by grace and faith we are saved. What if you never repent? Well, then you never accepted the gift to begin with. If you repent and then later on go back into sin, you're again saying that a certain quantity of disobedience suddenly removes everything Christ did and places you again on the path to hell. Do you really think the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the blood of Christ does that? Or do you think its more like we willingly give up our control and then God becomes responsible. If He's responsible, then why are you suggesting that we have any control over it?

I'm sorry if anyone thinks I'm aggressive in this, but I won't apologize for being passionate. I truly consider the idea that someone can walk away from God to be a doctrine from hell, and I think the whole concept is used far too often to justify behavior instead of adhere to Scripture.


"Marcus, if God will never forsake us, does that mean if I am a Christian, received salvation and after that I can do all ungodly stuff, would God still never forsake me, would he still accept me to heaven, what if I do not want to repent?"

Who made you want to repent in the first place?

[MarcusOfLycia]

The sanctified mind discerns the real beauties of holiness, but the power of discerning and judging about common and natural things is not lost. But the carnal man is a stranger to the principles, and pleasures, and actings of the Divine life. The spiritual man only, is the person to whom God gives the knowledge of his will. How little have any known of the mind of God by natural power! And the apostles were enabled by his Spirit to make known his mind. In the Holy Scriptures, the mind of Christ, and the mind of God in Christ, are fully made known to us. It is the great privilege of Christians, that they have the mind of Christ revealed to them by his Spirit. They experience his sanctifying power in their hearts, and bring forth good fruits in their lives.

And you're suggesting in some of your posts that people who know the mind of Christ can suddenly not want to have any part of that any more? Really?

You are, however I think, right in saying that little have known the mind of God by natural power. The actual count would be 0. No one has known the mind of God 'naturally'; God always has to be the initiator.

Can you give me a count on the number of sins (or severity) someone would have to do in order to have the Holy Spirit leave them? What exactly is the margin of error? If loosing one's Salvation is truly a possibility, I would think God would give us plenty of information on how to prevent ourselves from doing it. So, what do you think the limits are? (Note that if you haven't figured it out already, I don't buy the notion for an instant).

[zacchaeus]

Just Read Scripture The Living WORD, if you do that, well then you can never fail!!! The Word speaks for itself. Again, its not up to me what I think or what you think, or even if you agree what I think. As long as we follow, obey, and are obedient to the word of GOD and don't go against it then we are okay....

It is quite funny how (Galatians 5:19-21) is a warning to a Saved Christian Believer, obvious not to a non-believer since how a non-believer 1)knows not what sin is or that he commits sin 2)doesn't know he is lost and needs a savior 3)probably doesn't read scripture since how he doesn't believe so going to or getting into Heaven matters not to him since how to him it doesn't exist!!! So please tell me that why if you, (a Saved Christian Believer), does these things "Will NOT Inherit The Kingdom Of Heaven"!!!

...and again its not 1 or 2 or 3 sins that make you loose your salvation, nor does anyone "make" you do anything, but as a free moral agent, you make a conscious decision to willfully surrender your salvation through disobedience. It is a current continual spiritual state of mind, be it currently believing and are obedient, or currently unbelieving and are disobedient. The choice is yours. Please show me as to I have given numerous scriptural reference, where it says that once upon a time as an event taking place that I'm forever saved no matter what I choose to do or not do, causing me to forfeit my free moral agency of choice. Your not going to just wake up and your salvation be gone, its a long drawn out continual process of disobedience.

The problem is if your (osas) or not both agree that whatever your current state of mind and/or position determines your spiritual status be it saved or not saved. Why does one that is (osas) if he strays away in which you would say was never really saved in the first place, have to rededicate his life? Why would he be rededicating his life, wouldn't he just be dedicating his life for the first time, if in fact he was never saved in the first place? You could know someone now, and judge from their fruit and draw the conclusion their saved at that present state; 10yrs from now come across them again and they could be worshiping satan and/or in witchcraft or something to that extent and you would most certainly conclude at this present state they are not saved. Does that mean that they never really were saved at one point and time and then lost their salvation? Especially if they would have died 10yrs previous cause I'm most certain they would have gone to heaven, but then now If they were to die I'm most certain they would go to hell according to scripture? Or since they once believed as an "event" in time taken place it just doesn't even matter because they are saved forever no matter what? Give me a break!!!

[zacchaeus]

God has given us plenty of information on how to prevent it, its called OBEDIENCE; the celestial key!!! Not to mention He has given the entire scripture... He said Himself that if we continue in SIN, I don't know a specified number, you would have to take that up with God and be like hay you didn't tell me the specific number of sin so I just kept going pressing my luck... Its as if your trying to find fault with God why He didn't give us a number. Time and numbers are only relevant to us in this time so that we can fathom things in our terrestrial bodies. The point is, don't sin, and be obedient, and God forbid don't use (OSAS) as a license to sin, just because we all do fall short of the glory. If your that obedient you can live a sinless life... If you need me to elaborate on that for you I will, but not right now. Go back reread my posts. God read the scriptures, all of them, read before and after as well, break out the strongs, read commentary, use ref bibles, use numerous diff translation bibles, do your own research. If anything please be obedient to studying "yourself" approved, rightly dividing the word, and workout you "own salvation"...

[neo-x]

by Canuckster1127 on Mon May 02, 2011 9:23 am

It must be a great comfort to God to know when the time comes for Him to assume the Judgement seat that so many will have been there in advance, keeping it warm for Him .....

but then this would apply to all history, even the reformation (since it did judge the catholic doctrine to be in error)....

I did get your point however.

[neo-x]

Neo, no offence taken here, brother. Putting your own conditions on salvation won't do. Is salvation a free gift or not? When you are in Christ, you are given the ministry of reconciliation 2 Corinthians 5:18-19 You see, once you are in Christ, while you will stumble and fall, you will always be pulled back to the right path. Salvation is a once for all event; sanctification is a process. When I fall, the Lord pulls me back. This ongoing sanctification is a part of every saved man's walk 1 Corinthians 1:30

I see your point Danny, I still think it does not answer my questions or some more put up by Zacchaeus as well as Fearless, but if by sanctification or walk of faith, a person always wants to come back to the Lord, as long as this is a given than we are in some accord, brother. I will of course try to keep all the points into my consideration for my own learning.

[DannyM]

Cherry-picking bits of Jesus' ministry where he admonishes individuals whose belief 'has no root' will not cut it. This has no bearing on Paul's gospel to the gentiles. We have trusted in Christ, repented and are made righteous. You do nothing here but undermine the forensic nature and power of God's justification. --- Neo, speaking of the reformers, this is the kind of judgmental nonsense they sought to put an end to.

[neo-x]

@Danny

Cherry-picking bits of Jesus' ministry where he admonishes individuals whose belief 'has no root' will not cut it. This has no bearing on Paul's gospel to the gentiles. We have trusted in Christ, repented and are made righteous. You do nothing here but undermine the forensic nature and power of God's justification. --- Neo, speaking of the reformers, this is the kind of judgmental nonsense they sought to put an end to.

In that sense any one who ever tried to support his argument would one way or the other, cherry pick bits. also

Jesus' ministry where he admonishes individuals whose belief 'has no root' will not cut it.

would imply predestination. In that it would mean that only those who were good already in heart could get salvation, since you can not define who "has no roots", as I told you before, you cannot test this claim. How could you know if someone has roots or not. Only because they never came back - can not mean that they had no original roots. The parable of the sower holds true here but this means that the seed was intended only for the good land and if that be so, then any one who is outside of it will never be able to get salvation and the Gospel is not for the entire world. So you see this logic creates a problem.

This has no bearing on Paul's gospel to the gentiles.

I'm sorry but the Gospel is for the Jew and Gentile alike, you are separating it and that is why we cannot agree.

You do nothing here but undermine the forensic nature and power of God's justification

There is no one who is doing that here, I do not see it. This is an argument backed by scripture on both sides, the best outcome is that we understand we do not share a mutual understanding. You do nothing here but undermine the forensic nature and power of God's justification who is being judgmental here

Neo, speaking of the reformers, this is the kind of judgmental nonsense they sought to put an end to

I agree, but the claim they refuted is not mutual to the stance here presented. The claim here is not that salvation is not free, it is that we can loose it, walk away from it if we do not walk a godly walk, there is no way to know what is the limit of ungodliness and so a Christian should always be vigilant in his walk with God. I must say by what you are quote, you are leaning towards Calvinism. I do not agree with it

Danny, if you think that what you are saying is right and what others are saying is to "undermine the forensic nature and power of God's justification" then please, can you answer my question from my previous post

Yes a believer can sin his way out of salvation.Some people God just didn't forgive, And some of those examples I even quoted in my previous posts including Annais and saphira, they were Christians and they were believers, they lied (which is not something exclusive to non-Christians ). Well, they lied to the Lord, don't Christians today do that? do you think the penalty should have been death? because by what you are saying clearly implies that they had salvation and they should have been pardoned, at best they could have been given a chance to repent. Doesn't their salvation has any bearing on the way they were punished? Why didn't salvation saved them?

the salvation didn't do any good to them. did it?

Can you please explain what happened? And please do not say that they never had true faith in the first place, you do not know that.

[neo-x]

And honestly, I don't think we are getting anywhere on this, I quoted previously that for me the argument rests on my POV. So we do not agree, better leave it at that, cuz we all understand and interpret scripture in our own way and there is no way going around it.

[FearlessLlearsy]

Good point Neo, we have had more than 60 responses

However, what truly matters is that WE are saved, and if each of us can answer that question with a YES,

then ill be looking forward to seeing yall in heaven

[neo-x]

by FearlessLlearsy » Mon May 02, 2011 6:18 pm

Good point Neo, we have had more than 60 responses

However, what truly matters is that WE are saved, and if eahc of us can answer that question with a YES,

then ill be looking forward to seeing yall in heaven

Indeed

[DannyM]

Neo,

It's not me saying their 'belief' had no root; it was Jesus! See the quote from Luke at the top of the page. Also, it's not the faith-alone crowd who are judging anybody on what they have to 'do' to 'earn' and/or 'keep' their salvation. I am of course making a judgment call in that you are flying in the face of Paul's teaching about what brings our salvation; this is rather inescapable. It is a far cry from presuming to tell men what to 'do' in order to 'earn' or 'keep' their salvation.

I'll answer your request in a wee while, brother.