SALVATION ISSUE

[zacchaeus]

Your right, He will keep us strong as long as we abide in Him! He is able to keep us from stumbling or falling as long as we are with Him!

If you cannot have an effective fellowship without salvation because our salvation allows us to fellowship with Him then point made. If you cannot have one without the other and vise verse, then when sin hurts or hinders your fellowship it hurts and hinders your salvation. Forsake his ways, and "return" to what? Did he leave his secure position, that he had and lost, or as you would argue must have never had to begin with?

If you don't abide in Him or are not with/in Him you cannot reap the benefits nor promises He makes and gives to the "believing", "believer"!!! One who continues, stays, remains in a continual stance. AS LONG AS YOU CONTINUE TO BELIEVE, WHICH WHOSOEVER CONTINUES TO BELIEVE IS SAVED... PERIOD!!! Scripture says the sinner He does not hear (Jn. 9:31). Believing as in remaining to believe in Him has absolutely everything to do with salvation.

Oh boy this is going to take everything in me, and this is going to take a while. I'm glad I've got about two hours that I can go hard and really dig in... Here goes. Yes as you pointed out we obviously hold a different view towards sin altogether. I can see that we will "choose" not to agree on a lot of things. I.e. Different degrees of sins, those that condemn the soul and those that do not; and that if we are that obedient yes we have the power and promises to defeat/overcome sin and be blameless.

Lets look at (1 John 1:5-10; 1 John 2:1)
"This then is the message which we have heard of Him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in Him is no darkness AT ALL. 6- If we say that we have FELLOWSHIP with Him, and walk in darkness, we LIE, and do not the truth: 7- (Promise) But if we walk in the LIGHT, as He is in the LIGHT, we have FELLOWSHIP one with another, and the BLOOD of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us FROM ALL SIN. 8- If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9- (repent of sins to make peace with GOD Lk. 13:1-5) (Promise) If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10- If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. (1 John 2:1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that YE SIN NOT. And if any man SIN, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"

We do not sin "if" we walk in the Light, but if one does "fall" into sin he still has "hope" and can confess sin and be cleansed again. (Gal. 4:19)

Maintain fellowship by living free from sin (Rom. 6:1-23; 8:1-13; Tit. 2:11-14; Heb. 12:14)

Eternal life is synonymous with Jesus Christ. This life, like Christ, is eternal whether anyone ever receives it or not. Even if one receives it and then loses it, the life is still eternal. Individual possession of it either temporarily or otherwise does not make it eternal or not eternal. So the argument that if one should lose it, it would cease to be eternal is the wrong concept. So we are with eternal life either way. Conditions must be met to get and keep it. Christ cannot and will not remain in the life where sin and rebellion dwell. (Jn. 15:4-8; Gal. 1:6-8; 2:6-7; Rom. 6:14-23; 8:1-13; 2 Cor. 13:5).

Please understand my point on prayer again wasn't that we didn't need prayer, but that we need prayer to repent and ask forgiveness, as in that is the medium used. If God doesn't hear sinners (Jn. 9:31) and one who doesn't have salvation doesn't or wouldn't pray anyways, at least not in the way the sinner would like to think he does when he says, "oh yeah I'm not really saved but me and God talk". Really? Okay. You "pray" to God when initially coming to Him for salvation... letting Him know you believe in Him, His son, The Holy Spirit; How Jesus died on the cross for your sins; you are a sinner and need a savior; etc. They go together hand and hand and if you needed not one then you would not need both. You said we need prayer "IF" eternal security is a reality. LOL. Are you even 100% absolutely sure of your own belief on this subject. Please don't lie. If you want to say your still studying the subject, that is acceptable.

You said "No sir. Only according to your interpretations of the scripture" that I'm wrong. Okay and who says that you are right other than "Only according to your interpretations of scripture". Again this all goes back to letting each man be fully persuaded and convince in his own mind. (Rom. 14:5)

[jlay]

You said "No sir. Only according to your interpretations of the scripture" that I'm wrong. Okay and who says that you are right other than "Only according to your interpretations of scripture". Again this all goes back to letting each man be fully persuaded and convince in his own mind. (Rom. 14:5)

I say, no sir, again. You can't take Rom 14:5 and liberally apply that to any conflicting ideas Christians may have. There is a context here, and I assure you it has nothing to do with the assurance of salvation. If so, there would be no truth. Particularly when it comes to soteriology. Again, this is further evidence that you proof text the scriptures to defend a position. I certainly hope you wouldn't use this verse to attempt to say that we can both be right at the same time when it comes to eternal security. That violates the law of non-contradiction.

Forsake his ways, and "return" to what?

Abiding fellowship. The believer is blessed with all spiritual blessings in the heavenly places. Eph 1:3
Now, whether they access them or not is a different story. Are you accessing all your spiritual blessings, and walking perfect and upright, without blemish, in word, thought and deed, at all times?


Anyhow. Wish I had more time, but going to Atlanta for seminar.
Be back Saturday.

[zacchaeus]

You said, "I certainly hope you wouldn't use this verse to attempt to say that we can both be right at the same time when it comes to eternal security." No, not to if we are right or wrong pertaining to the doctrine of eternal/conditional security, but I can to say that we can both be right at the same time when it comes to if we are both currently saved". I.e. I'm sure you believe you are saved; I'd agree, and I believe I'm saved as well; I'd think you'd agree. What we believe in terms of (OSAS) or if one can willingly choose to surrender his salvation would be irrelevant, if we both know for a fact that we are saved.

Your answer to what he returned to was "abiding fellowship"! You also stated, "Our salvation allows us fellowship with God. So, no you can not have effective fellowship without salvation. " I would be willing to bet you cannot have salvation without effective fellowship either and that they both coincide. Please put these two together and then connect the dots between your own statements.

I actually reside in Atlanta, Georgia... I suppose that's where your going. Any how, best of luck at seminar my friend, I look forward to continuing our conversation.

[J.Davis]

......

[FearlessLlearsy]

DANG!! I went off for a couple of days, and found out that there are 108 replies!!!! God bless Y'all!

[neo-x]

DANG!! I went off for a couple of days, and found out that there are 108 replies!!!! God bless Y'all!

Don't worry, this still isn't getting anywhere, it is stuck right where I left and you probably went off for a while

[zacchaeus]

@ Jlay, I know your preoccupied right this moment, however I do have some additional thoughts...

John 15:1
So the branches are "believers". The vine produces fruit and we the branches are to bear fruit. Very true statement, correct? We are suppose to, commanded to, and whether we do or not is a different story. The fact is though that if we don't, then it is a sin, and we all know that sin brings forth death. Period! Its indisputable, it is scripture. He said there is nothing you can do to be saved and have salvation "except to repent and believe", but why? Because the Kingdom is at hand!!! (Mark 1:15; Matthew 3:2; 4:17; Acts 2:38; 20:21) We’ve been called to “repent”. He pointed out that you have to be obedient in continuing to believe and that “you have to repent” which is the condition.

Suppose you stop believing, does that mean you never believed, NO! Suppose you don't repent and you continue in "sin" you will die spiritually. Sin alienates or separates us from God (Isaiah 1:15; 50:1; 59:1-2; Lamentations 1:8; Ezekiel 39:23). Sin has consequences, lest your pardoned through repentance, and even then what you sow of the flesh you will reap of the flesh. Jerusalem sinned so bad that they became unclean; how on earth did they become unclean unless they “were” clean first. Scripture points out that you can "choose" to walk away from your salvation, not that you just mysteriously "loose" it when waking up one morning.

Maybe you have never been empty cause you have chosen never to walk away from God in unrepentant sin, and obviously you love the LORD and continue to walk with Him repenting when applicable. "And no one is saved by works" whether your (OSAS) or if you can choose to walk away from your salvation. Faith alone will not save you because faith without works is DEAD!!! We don't work to get saved, we work because we are saved, if you do no work and bear no fruit your branch as in your life will be cut and cast into fire. The scripture is about fruit but most neglect the fact that its also talking about salvation. I'm not asking for you to agree with me, just to agree with scripture. Most people often confuse conditional security, grace, blessings with that of merited blessings or works. The bible contains many examples of people who received God's blessings by His grace, yet they had to meet "conditions". Those who met them received, had they failed they would not receive, nevertheless, meeting the conditions did not earn the blessings, so it was still a matter of God's grace.

Fall of Jericho (Josh 6:1-20), Verse 2 God said He had given Jericho to Israel. Salvation is a gift, so some say we can do nothing to receive it (Eph. 2:8-9) but Jericho was also a gift, did they not have to do something to receive it? Well, in order to receive it they had to march around the city once each day for six days and seven times on the seventh day, blow horns, and shout. When they did the (work) and met the conditions of the free gift the walls FELL. Look at the cure of Naaman (2 Kings 5:9-14) Gideon's defeat of the Midianites (Judges 7:1-22) compared to our salvation (Eph. 2:8-9) saved from Midian/ saved from sin, both a gift from God, both by grace, not earned by human hands/works, man cannot glory/boast, both have conditions (obedience) is required. Look at Noah's salvation from the flood Gen. 6. Lets look at the universalism... if God's grace is unconditional, then "all people will be saved", since His grace extends to all, but it contradicts passages showing many will be lost (Matt. 7:13, 14, 21-23, 25:31-46; 2 Thess. 1:6-9, etc... the list goes on.) So, what is the relationship between grace, law, and works. Since God's word is truth (John 17:17) and truth never contradicts itself, we know there are no contradictions in the Bible. However, many people are confused about grace because some passages only appear to themselves to be contradictory. Lets consider some examples. We are saved by grace through faith, not of works (as in the law of mosses) Eph 2:8-9, but we are justified by works, not by faith only James 2:24. If salvation is of grace, it is not of works (again the law which we all know can save no man) Rom. 11:6, but He who fears God and (works) righteousness is accepted before HIM Acts 10:35. By the way what is acts... as in acts we do, acting, verb, action, work, etc. Now it comes all together, we are not under law, but under grace Rom 6:14, yet Paul said he was "under the law to Christ" 1 Cor. 9:21. We don't have 10 commands to be saved by or to be obedient, but we now have over 2,000 something commands we are to be obedient to.

One reason people are confused about such matters is they study only part of what the Bible says and do not put it all together. Another reason is that people ignore passages that seem to teach different from what they have believed and been taught. So they may study certain passages that teach about grace but then ignore other passages. The result, which satan has been so excellent at in doing, is confusion and separation amongst the body of Christ into divisions, faiths, and worse of all denominations. We show our love for Jesus and God by our obedience. Love or non-love for Jesus is reflected in our obedience to Jesus' teachings we have been so entrusted to. Those that actually inherit the Kingdom of God (love or obey) God. The Holy Spirit is given to those who Obey (acts 5:32). We are either slaves to sin or to obedience depending on whom we obey. The gospel is to be obeyed for “salvation's sake“. (2 Th. 1:8-9) Obedience to God's commands is a proof of salvation (1 John 2:3-5; 2:13; 3:6, 22, 24; 4:7, 13; 5:2-3; John 14:15; 15:10; Rev. 12:17; 14:12)

1 John 3:6 “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.”

“He that sins chooses a vicious course of life; for this would be inconsistent with his indwelling in Christ, and enjoying communion with Him and the taken of any part in the things to come except to be eternally separated from He who knows no sin…”-zacchaeus

[jlay]

John 15:1
So the branches are "believers". The vine produces fruit and we the branches are to bear fruit. Very true statement, correct? We are suppose to, commanded to, and whether we do or not is a different story. The fact is though that if we don't, then it is a sin, and we all know that sin brings forth death. Period! Its indisputable, it is scripture. He said there is nothing you can do to be saved and have salvation "except to repent and believe", but why? Because the Kingdom is at hand!!! (Mark 1:15; Matthew 3:2; 4:17; Acts 2:38; 20:21) We’ve been called to “repent”. He pointed out that you have to be obedient in continuing to believe and that “you have to repent” which is the condition.

Yes, sin brings forth death. Everyone dies, even saved people. Unless you'd like to prove otherwise. Yet even though we die, we live.

Regarding repent. It seems you refuse to read the article I linked. My guess is we have a much different idea on what is meant when it is said, 'repent.' Not too mention what is meant by, "Kingdom."
Belief and repentence are two different sides to the same coin. The Jews could not accept a Messiah unless they changed their minds (repented) about the role of the Law in terms of salvation. They would not see the Kingdom of God restored in the earth, unless Israel repented and accepted the Messiah.
An example among us gentiles is that we can not be saved unless we see the need of a savior. Why would it matter if we believed if a man raised from the dead, unless we could personally connect that to our own spiritual condition? We might be able to 'believe' a man named Jesus raised from the dead. We may also be able to believe in aliens, unicorns, and ESP. But that is a far cry from a sinner trusting in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

There is simply nothing in this section I quote that actually covers what we are talking about, and that is a genuine believer losing their salvation because of sin.

Suppose you stop believing, does that mean you never believed, NO! Suppose you don't repent and you continue in "sin" you will die spiritually. Sin alienates or separates us from God

Sorry Zac, but it seems you are just trying to move the goal posts here. This is apostasy. If you want to start a thread on apostasy that is fine by me. But it is not the same. We are talking about someone who genuinely believes yet sins, verses someone who is actually denying that they ever had faith in Christ.

Faith alone will not save you because faith without works is DEAD!!!

Again you are forcing your definitions onto the text.
Faith will save you, as is confirmed multiple times in the texts. The Bible tells me so. You have to take that when it is said that, 'faith without works is dead,' to actually mean that a genuinely saved person has had their salvation revoked. And if we follow that same hermanuetic, then Hebrews tells us that it is impossible for them to ever be genuinely saved again. And you have to take the entire context of James and ignore it to arrive at that conclusion. You are simply proof texting to defend this position. And then when you can't you simply slide into arguing apostasy instead.

yet they had to meet "conditions".

Everyone has to meet a condition. It is genuine faith towards Christ. I've never said that salvation is unconditional. The fact that you even attempt to accuse me of universalism is only evidence of how little you understand about dispensational theology, and the position I am representing.

One reason people are confused about such matters is they study only part of what the Bible says and do not put it all together.

Amen. However, Paul said it is not as much a matter of how we put it together, but how we DIVIDE the Word. 2 Tim 2:15

We don't have 10 commands to be saved by or to be obedient, but we now have over 2,000 something commands we are to be obedient to.

And you think you are following all of them in word, thought and deed to your own salvation?

I'm sure you believe you are saved; I'd agree, and I believe I'm saved as well;

I don't see how you can think you are saved. Or, how you can think that I am saved or, anyone else is for that matter. Your interpretation of salvation is so ambiguous, and easily snatched away, that I don't see how you can come close to claiming that you are saved, when you give your own analogy about me seeing you in five years. So, you can't know you are saved. You might think you are saved now, at this moment. But, by your own example, later on you could sin yourself out of salvation. And so, you couldn't possibly be consistent with your position and claim security. It is logically absurd. However, I can know that you are saved, because you have trusted in the work of Christ. But, that you are simply confused or misguided about the nature of the genuine salvation you already possess by Faith in Christ.

[zacchaeus]

Fine, jlay, "If our salvation is eternally secure, why does the Bible warn so strongly against apostasy for?" Please tell me exactly what you personally believe! I will look at your link in due time, but I'm not going to discuss repentance... it seems self explanatory at least scripturaly. Please tell me your following definitions: faith, salvation, fruit, apostasy, genuine believer, faith without works; if there is a such thing since how the absence would make it dead which is the very thing you confirmed is needed for salvation.

Please explain you dispensational theology stance and you position held, considering I've never claim to understand it. None of my post have even been directly directed to no one in particular. Why would there be a condition to get something that is free yet no condition in which for keeping it because its free. If its truly indeed as free as you say it is then in the same respect regarding one who believes you cannot loose it because it is free, then you should already have it since its free and cannot meet a condition to receive it; its fee.

I understand the dividing, but you have ceased to try to even attempt to prove your view points to me, especially not with scripture or the rightly dividing of it. You through one scripture out for absolute truth, seems like proof-texting to me, just to support your view point, instead of giving me multiple scripture, in which I have given you. I understand the fact that if I don't agree with you even if I use scripture than to you I am wrong. That is find, that is your opinion...

Just because I pointed out a "fact" whether I'm following them all or not doesn't change the status of it still being a "fact". I don't even know all of the commands, but I'm only accountable for what I do know.

Your last paragraph is such nonsense and I'm not quite sure what to make of it. I'll simply not respond to it I suppose... although your legalism will come back with a smart comment like, quote: zac said, "I'll simply not respond" jlay "yet by saying that you did respond." Talk about one who takes things completely out of context.

Christians can sin and they often do sin but to believe that a Christian can live any way he or she likes, and still be saved, is dangerous. Yes even for you. Although I'm still not sure what you believe you seem to be on the defense of justifying Christians that do sin... God knows our true intention. We might be able to fool a police officer that we sinned accidentally, but God knows the real truth. I believe that if we deliberately go against the direction given by Jesus (who, you will remember, said to obey the laws of the land) then we must suffer the consequences – and that might mean the loss of eternal life. At least our Judge, while tough, is fair and understanding! I assume you only know of a physical death, your pretty adamant about that. I will assume since I don't know yet until you explain in your next post what it is you believe, that you don't believe in a spiritual death. If God didn’t want us to be able to choose He would not have given us the gift of freewill. It is this gift which places us above the animals. It is this gift which allows us to choose to either worship God or not worship God. It is this gift, and only this gift, which allows us to truly love Him. It is this gift which proves that ‘once saved, always saved’ must be wrong.

"If we are saved in spite of ourselves then there is no freewill. If there is no freewill then the Bible is wrong!
I don’t believe that the Bible is wrong..." -Graham Pockett (I agree)

Before you write to say that we are all sinners and will therefore continue to sin throughout our lives you should know that I agree with you for the most part (but it is the attitude we have towards our sinning – what is really in our hearts – that is more important), but if there is one obedient enough he can be without sin, blameless, and live a sinless life... God has given us the power to do so... people acting on and truly believing; well, that's another story.

Before you write to tell me how wrong I am (doctrinally) as you have tried to say; you should know that I agree with you (only Jesus had a perfect doctrine, the rest of us must rely on God not to judge us on our imperfect doctrine... or we are all screwed.

[FearlessLlearsy]

Summary of thousands of words of responses:

Salvation is offered to all of us. But it is not enough to PROCLAIM your faith in Jesus Christ, you also have to Live it.

[zacchaeus]

I think that is to be understood, however what has not been understood is if one "living it" can in return choose to surrender it? If so how, is it through disobedience and sin? Can they after surrendering it come back into fellowship? Apostasy would be complete turning from/renouncing of one's faith, how can he turn/renounce something he never had? I see evidence in scripture that refutes (OSAS) and that one can surrender their own salvation, however one thing after reading all theses responses and scriptures I'm unsure of is whether or not they can actually really come back unto repentance? Off the top of my head I would automatically respond yes of course, God is always forgiving and wants you to be saved and in fellowship with HIM... Also, in the same regards to my defense that if your (OSAS) you would forfeit your free-will, then if you surrender your salvation and cannot come back then you would also be forfeiting your free-will. But... if you knew the consequences of sin and that you could surrender your salvation only to never come back into fellowship/salvation again can you knowingly choose to surrender your free-will or forfeit your free-will because of free-will??? If so, maybe you can forfeit free-will in either case... I suppose it all boils down to a heart-condition, whats in it, and if you have that much obedience/disobedience!!!

[jlay]

"If our salvation is eternally secure, why does the Bible warn so strongly against apostasy for?"

Obviously, I can not answer this question, because it is begging the question. Obviously you do believe that the bible warns against apostasy. I do believe the bible has many warnings and instructions for the believer. It also has many instructions and warnings for the Jew. I believe they are to be divided and applied accordingly.

Salvation is offered to all of us. But it is not enough to PROCLAIM your faith in Jesus Christ, you also have to Live it.

Fearless. This is a false dilema. And it most certainly not scriptural. This assumes that the issue is between proclamation, and living it out. One or the other. As far as I can tell, no one here is saying that proclaiming is equal to saving faith. People can and do proclaim things they don't actually believe. I gave an example earlier. Saving faith isn't simply an intellectual ascent regarding some facts about Jesus. It is trusting those facts as truth regarding our own spiritual condition.
Regarding living it. I would challenge you to find me anyone who is living it perfectly in word, thought and deed, 24-7. You and I both know that you can't. Some are doing better than others, but all fall short in some way. Some appear to be 'living' it, but are only putting up a religious facade. Some are trying to 'live it' by working under there own power, which as we know is nothing but filthy rags.

I will look at your link in due time, but I'm not going to discuss repentance... it seems self explanatory at least scripturaly.

Zac,
But brother. What if you are wrong?

I understand the dividing, but you have ceased to try to even attempt to prove your view points to me, especially not with scripture or the rightly dividing of it.

Well, this is an essential tenet of dispensational theology. And nothing personal, but I don't think you understand it as I am referring to. Most people are hung up on the eschatology of dispensationalism, but that is hardly the heart of it. As Paul instructed Timothy to rightly divide, we need to understand that although all scritpure is useful, it isn't all applicable to the gentile believer. So, a very common error is trying to replace these divisions and attempting to apply all of it to one's life. What results is frustration and contradiction.

Dispensationalism is about understanding how God is operating in the earth and what program is in operation at what time. I asked the question earier, Why is there an apostle Paul. In Hebrews Jesus is described as High Priest and apostle. (Heb 3:1)Yet, Paul is called by Jesus to be the apostle to the gentiles? The bible is not a book. It is an amazing collection of 66 books given by inspiration of God. It is essential for a believer to know how to divide and apply these books. By the way you quote the scripture it is apparent that when we use the word divide, we are not using it in the same way. If I said to you, "to be a true believer you need to be circumcised, would you agree?" No. But the bible clearly gives instruction requiring circumcision. Are you rejecting the bible? No. This is an obvious example, becaue we know the NT scriptures that speak to the fact that circumcision in the flesh is no longer of any value. We have just rightly divided the scriptures.

But what if, per chance, you didn't have those few verses that covered the issue of circumcision? Remember the early church didn't. So, this is exactly why Judiasers were trying to get the Jewish believers to continue, and even attempting to force the OT law on the gentile believers. There had to be a division made as to what applied and what did not. Well the four gospels are not any different. Jesus' earthly misistry was stictly to the nation of Israel. He preached about the Kingdom. That being the earthly Kingdom program through Israel, God's chosen people. So, if you don't make the division, you might think that you are part of that program. And thus try to apply Kingdom parables and teachings to yourself and others regarding your personal salvation, or any number of issues. And that is essentially the underlying issue regarding our disagreements.

Regarding my last paragraph. I am glad you see it as nonsense. Because bro, if you are consistent in what you say, there is simply no way that you can claim that anyone is saved, much less yourself. I can be completely consistent and say that anyone who comes to genuine faith in Christ is saved, sealed and assured. You can't even say that. Because salvation as you see it, could be lost at some point. Some unknown line could be crossed when the genuinie convert says one too many lies, and his salvation is revoked. (Or whatever sin you want to put in there.)

[FearlessLlearsy]

Well, obviously my post did not advance the case....

Well, thanks Jlay for clarifying some things in my post,

then, what is the conclusion?

[zacchaeus]

Lets suppose I am wrong, no harm done cause according to you I'm eternally secure forever, but what if you wrong; that would suck!!! If I am wrong and your implication is that I'm not saved for the certain personal believe I hold according to scripture and its meaning then I have in fact "lost" my salvation and/or been moved from my secure position. Certain things you say make it seem as if you are consistently inconsistent even when you think you are consistent. Please don't get me wrong, its not an unknown line, the individual believer would know if he/she is personally saved or not saved, be it if they were and then lost, or if they never were to begin with. There is no difference in Jew and Gentile (circumcised or uncircumcised)... and as far as the circumcision bit, well that too would apply to the individual believer. It would go to personal convictions. I'm sure and most likely guarantee my convictions are differ then yours and vise verse. If one felt they needed to in order to be obedient under ordinances of God to either get initially saved or remain saved then we cannot fault what the Holy Spirit has revealed to some and not to others. I feel I should tone my dialect down and all the mumbo jumbo of my responses since they keep getting taken out of context. I'm beginning to not even understand you with simple logic much less my self when we seem to be circling in a never ending "debate". Fewer words with understanding are far better than a lot of words saying absolutely nothing, or exactly the same things that we've already said. Some things you've touched on I myself a studier of the word, have never heard, and well, you can't fault me for that even though it seems you have tried and would like to. At this point I'm not quite sure what to say to you... I mean, are you considering my position or have you already study the subject "once" and are now set in your ways. God forbid He try to show you or me for that matter, let me make a point not to single you out, but me as well; something through each other, but because we have studied so many years there is no way we could be wrong. If so then all those years are wasted on believing and teaching others the wrong thing. How are any of us going to be 100% correct? Is it you, me, someone else? Any of us all knowing? Don't think so... so I'm at a lost for words. Maybe I should post the very debated apostle Judas (original 12) study my pastor has put out. I don't want to cause I know where it would go, but it def speaks and shows truth and cannot be disputed. I will pray on it. Night!!!