People who never had the opport'y...

[Anonymous]

I'm so glad I found this place. Hopefully you guys can help me with a question I have.

One of the central questions I have for Christians in general:

Presuppose: Christ died for our sins.

Presuppose: One must be saved (accept Christ) in order to advance to Heaven.


Dilemma: Those that were born after Christ died, but did not hear of Christ because they did not live in the Middle East (or in Western Countries in the modern era). What happens to these people? They never had the opportunity to accept Christ, so is it fair to put them in hell? For example, Aborigines were not discovered until the settlement of Australia. Since the Aborigines did not have knowledge of the Bible until that time, doesn't it stand to reason that they also would not advance to heaven since they never had the opportunity to become saved?

[bizzt]

I'm so glad I found this place. Hopefully you guys can help me with a question I have.

One of the central questions I have for Christians in general:

Presuppose: Christ died for our sins.

Presuppose: One must be saved (accept Christ) in order to advance to Heaven.


Dilemma: Those that were born after Christ died, but did not hear of Christ because they did not live in the Middle East (or in Western Countries in the modern era). What happens to these people? They never had the opportunity to accept Christ, so is it fair to put them in hell? For example, Aborigines were not discovered until the settlement of Australia. Since the Aborigines did not have knowledge of the Bible until that time, doesn't it stand to reason that they also would not advance to heaven since they never had the opportunity to become saved?

Everyone gets the opportunity to accept Christ. It says in the bible that we have no excuse, that we will come to know the creator whether through Nature or through missionaries. Every single person who is alive or dead will come to the point where they have to reject or accept Christ. Life on Earth is only 1-120 years of living (Or more if you are special ) for eternity.

Tim

[Anonymous]

Everyone gets the opportunity to accept Christ. It says in the bible that we have no excuse, that we will come to know the creator whether through Nature or through missionaries. Every single person who is alive or dead will come to the point where they have to reject or accept Christ. Life on Earth is only 1-120 years of living (Or more if you are special ) for eternity.

Tim

Tim, thanks for responding, but that doesn't maky any sense! Exactly how does one come to know Christ through nature? How would the bible itself become self-evident through nature? If it's self evident that one must accept Christ with only nature and no biblical sources, shouldn't it be even more evident what these nature signals are with the bible?

[bizzt]

Here is a link to a Discussion about this...
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... ht=indians

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

Not everyone searches for God, but if they do, they would find him. One real life story that my teacher told was about this family who worshipped this little clay god. The boy who had to handle it left it out in the rain, and it..melted. The father was angry, of course, and the son asked him, what kind of god did they worship, that he couldn't get himself out of the rain. So, they had nothing to worship, until a missionary I guess came along. And, you have to remember that everyone did start out knowing God. Adam and Eve I turn to. I don't have any historical proof at the moment, but it seems obvious that people did ignore the real God, and made up their own beliefs-just like when Moses went up the mountain, the Jews made a golden calf in a heartbeat. That's one way one person can lead many to hell (Muhammed for example...).

And, whoever said nature is enough to lead you to Christ, wrong. Nature is only enough to show you that their is a God, and probably will show you a Trinity-everything in triplets...past present future, length width height, lol, rambling.

[Dan]

To answer the topic:

Romans 2:12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

You can follow Christ without ever hearing about Him through your senses.

Also, salvation ISN'T based on what you really desire or why you find God. Fearing God's wrath is one of the things Christians do anyway. When you love the Lord with all your mind (you think you love Him and follow Him) and soul (you always have Him in your heart and always try to do what He wants you to do) the Lord will take your body and inate selfish desires and remove the evil. You can have salvation while being a sinner, perfection comes AFTER salvation, it isn't required FOR salvation.

[Felgar]

Romans 1:18-20
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

So this passage explains that "what may be known about God is plain to them" - in other words, God provides everyone with the fundamental knowledge of His existance, and unless it is supressed by wickedness, people will understand that. We've seen this throughout human history - atheism has never been widely accepted, and this is an explanation of why that's the case.

Then the second part is that God reveals himself through nature - His glory esspecially but also His wisdom, His beauty, etc. There are many cultures that have come to accept this: North American natives for instance, hold all things of nature in very high esteem. So these people are then judged by their hearts - by whether they are willing to submit to an almighty creator or not.

On a side note, there have been natives in North America who have had exact parrallels of Jesus within their own culture - clearly God has the power to reveal Jesus to whomever He will; the only question is whether they will accept Him.

[Prodigal Son]

they will be judged based on their "hearts."

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

they will be judged based on their "hearts."

Didn't bother to quote the original. Sincerity doesn't make right. If I sincerely think, in some strange way, that I should beat someone to death, that doesn't make me right.

[Anonymous]

So if you haven't been exposed to the Bible and/or the New Testament, then God's law because some sort of law of common sense?

[The edge]

I thot I read somewhere that those who didn't had the opportunity to hear Christ will be judged base on their own moral standard.....or does this fall under the Rom 2 interpretation?

[Dan]

So if you haven't been exposed to the Bible and/or the New Testament, then God's law because some sort of law of common sense?

Why do you think so many societies forbid murder, stealing, and other things condemned in the Bible? It's because humanity has it's own built-in moral code that some of it's members follow. No matter how far apart they are or how isolated they are from each other, two humans can always guess what the other's moral code is (not nescessarily customs or regional quirks however).

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

So if you haven't been exposed to the Bible and/or the New Testament, then God's law because some sort of law of common sense?

No, everyone is given an internalized moral code. Your conscious. This can, be altered by yourself or others. If you do something, like murder, you'll start to become desensitized (an example).

[Anonymous]

So if you haven't been exposed to the Bible and/or the New Testament, then God's law because some sort of law of common sense?

No, everyone is given an internalized moral code. Your conscious. This can, be altered by yourself or others. If you do something, like murder, you'll start to become desensitized (an example).

Ok. So if one who has never been exposed to Christianity follows their moral code, then they will be allowed in Heaven?

However, since we are all sinners and can not always follow our own moral code due to our imperfection, aren't these people then precluded from Heaven?

[The edge]

So if you haven't been exposed to the Bible and/or the New Testament, then God's law because some sort of law of common sense?

Why do you think so many societies forbid murder, stealing, and other things condemned in the Bible? It's because humanity has it's own built-in moral code that some of it's members follow. No matter how far apart they are or how isolated they are from each other, two humans can always guess what the other's moral code is (not nescessarily customs or regional quirks however).

Even non-Christian will have a moral code written in them.

John 16:8
And he, when he comes, will make the world conscious of sin, and of righteousness, and of being judged

I do think that one who had not heard about Christ but yet have a heart of repentant towards God (not idols), God will be forgiving.

I also had this funny hopeful idea that perhaps these people will not perish but will instead be reincarnated till they are given a chance to hear the message. This of course is nothing biblical.