Stuff before marriage : /

[PaulSacramento]

I think you may be missing the point, if we date to see if we are compatible in all other things, why should our sexuality be any different?
Don't you (in general not to anyone in specific) think that by make such a huge deal about sex, that you ARE making such a HUGE deal about sex?
Yes, it is vital and crucial to understand the importance of sex and to not give "it away like it means nothing" but at the sametime, if it means SOMETHING then it means SOMETHING and if being on the same page in terms of religion, wanting kids, careers and all the other things we date other people to discover if we are compatiable, is important, how can we say that sex isn't?
How can we say that it's ok to "deal with it after" marriage?

[Maytan]

I think you may be missing the point, if we date to see if we are compatible in all other things, why should our sexuality be any different?
Don't you (in general not to anyone in specific) think that by make such a huge deal about sex, that you ARE making such a HUGE deal about sex?
Yes, it is vital and crucial to understand the importance of sex and to not give "it away like it means nothing" but at the sametime, if it means SOMETHING then it means SOMETHING and if being on the same page in terms of religion, wanting kids, careers and all the other things we date other people to discover if we are compatiable, is important, how can we say that sex isn't?
How can we say that it's ok to "deal with it after" marriage?

I think pre-marital sex is immoral before God, and thus I choose not to partake in it. I can reason with myself, make up excuses, and even convince myself that I'd be better off if I changed my view in this area; but I'm more interested in God's law than sexual activities.

[PaulSacramento]

I think you may be missing the point, if we date to see if we are compatible in all other things, why should our sexuality be any different?
Don't you (in general not to anyone in specific) think that by make such a huge deal about sex, that you ARE making such a HUGE deal about sex?
Yes, it is vital and crucial to understand the importance of sex and to not give "it away like it means nothing" but at the sametime, if it means SOMETHING then it means SOMETHING and if being on the same page in terms of religion, wanting kids, careers and all the other things we date other people to discover if we are compatiable, is important, how can we say that sex isn't?
How can we say that it's ok to "deal with it after" marriage?

I think pre-marital sex is immoral before God, and thus I choose not to partake in it. I can reason with myself, make up excuses, and even convince myself that I'd be better off if I changed my view in this area; but I'm more interested in God's law than sexual activities.

While I can appreciate that view, I am not sure where the biblical law is that states that sex outside of marriage is against Gods Law?
Which one of the Ten Commandments is that?
In which lesson did Jesus mention that?

[Canuckster1127]

What do you think Fornication is Paul?

I understand the subtleties of culture and the cross of societal and theological states of marriage that creates this argument. I think it's an often used argument. My experience in observing it is that many people who rationalize and practice sex outside of a legal state of marriage in fact don't view themselves as "married" in God's eyes and instead statistically even if it's among limited partners, over time aren't tied into a monogomous relationship. There are few things more creative than the minds of people burning with physical desire who wish to create a rationalization for why they can do what they want to do without causing themselves harm.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not about seeking to establish legalistic adherance to standards but we have to recognize that the human heart and mind is practically limitless in its ability to convince itself that it's fine to do what it wants to do in the first place.

It's not the unforgivable sin. It's no better or no worse in God's eyes than any other sin, but there is an element of sexual sin that is particularly insidious in terms of how it impacts our self-identification, ego and self-worth. We can indeed create a lot of grief for ourselves and others when we make decisions that fail to recognize that and don't follow the guidance of the Spirit of Christ within us that holds that sexual union is a particularly special creation of God that is best mirrored by the relationship that Christ speak of having with His Body, His Bride, the church of Christ. It's beautiful in that context. If someone wants to tell me that they're married in God's eyes because their context doesn't allow for or they don't agree with state sanctioned marriage, I'm open to that, but in practice it's very easy to use that as a rationalization and not an actual heart-felt conviction.

To be crude about it, and I realize it fails at points as all analogies do, but I don't have to put my male member into a sausage grinder to know it's going to be a bad experience. A wise counselor can guide a prospective couple or friends or parents through the questions and explorations of issues without becoming active sexually before a spiritual commitment is made. There's as much or more risk as there is any benefit in pre-marital sex in my opinion and observation.

[neo-x]

To be crude about it, and I realize it fails at points as all analogies do, but I don't have to put my male member into a sausage grinder to know it's going to be a bad experience.

aptly put

[PaulSacramento]

What do you think Fornication is Paul?

As I am sure you know, fornication in both the OT and the NT was applied to ANY illicit sexual act, not just pre-marital sex.
Incest, bestiality, and in the OT man-on-man sex ( the OT never mentions lesbianism though Paul does, that spoiler sport ).
Porneia in greek, at times translated as fornication, covered a wide range of illicit sexuality and even idolitry.

I don't want you guys to get me wrong, I agree that sex should be strickly of marriage and even agree, to a point, that it it should ONLY be for married couples.
I personally think that recreational sex is a horrible thing and that the difference between being in a commited loving relationship and making love and just having sex is quite beyond the doubt.
I think that sex between to loving and committed adults is far more than just a physical act, it truly is love making and not fornication.

It's just that, waiting for marriage to have sex it is not without it's issues and we all can agree on that.
I have seen far too many kids get married so that they can have sex and that marriage makes it "OK".

[Reactionary]

I think that sex between to loving and committed adults is far more than just a physical act, it truly is love making and not fornication.

It's just that, waiting for marriage to have sex it is not without it's issues and we all can agree on that.
I have seen far too many kids get married so that they can have sex and that marriage makes it "OK".

Well put, I agree fully.

[Canuckster1127]

I think that sex between to loving and committed adults is far more than just a physical act, it truly is love making and not fornication.

It's just that, waiting for marriage to have sex it is not without it's issues and we all can agree on that.
I have seen far too many kids get married so that they can have sex and that marriage makes it "OK".

Well put, I agree fully.

I like what Bill Engvall said about this. Getting married just so you can have sex, is like buying an airline so you can get the packets of free peanuts.

[Reactionary]

I like what Bill Engvall said about this. Getting married just so you can have sex, is like buying an airline so you can get the packets of free peanuts.

Close...

Just to let you know, there are more chickens in the chat room at the moment...

[FearlessLlearsy]

Paul, you are at the end of the day just stubborn. Trying to justify our sins is not, and will never get us anywhere.

Canuckster1127 wrote:
I like what Bill Engvall said about this. Getting married just so you can have sex, is like buying an airline so you can get the packets of free peanuts.

That is not even the issue. People who get married just to have sex.... is just pathetic. We are debating wether or not pre-marital sex is alright, under any condition.
Using foolish analogies and relating them to serious matters only helps but to reinforce the veil of blindness put on your face on the issue.

I repeat. SIN under any condition is WRONG. There is no bifurcation to it. It does not matter if I had sex with my dear gf, or a girl i met at a party. Both are the same thing: Pre-Marital sex. God is so clear on Pre-Marital sex, and yet you try to fit religion to adhere with the sinful pleasures of the world. Basically, you are saying, if the conditions are right, its ok. Then tell me, what other sins can one do if the conditions are right?
The best you can do at this point, is to not lead other, younger youths astray from the right path, for that would be selfish and deadly.

[PaulSacramento]

Paul, you are at the end of the day just stubborn. Trying to justify our sins is not, and will never get us anywhere.

Canuckster1127 wrote:
I like what Bill Engvall said about this. Getting married just so you can have sex, is like buying an airline so you can get the packets of free peanuts.

That is not even the issue. People who get married just to have sex.... is just pathetic. We are debating wether or not pre-marital sex is alright, under any condition.
Using foolish analogies and relating them to serious matters only helps but to reinforce the veil of blindness put on your face on the issue.

I repeat. SIN under any condition is WRONG. There is no bifurcation to it. It does not matter if I had sex with my dear gf, or a girl i met at a party. Both are the same thing: Pre-Marital sex. God is so clear on Pre-Marital sex, and yet you try to fit religion to adhere with the sinful pleasures of the world. Basically, you are saying, if the conditions are right, its ok. Then tell me, what other sins can one do if the conditions are right?
The best you can do at this point, is to not lead other, younger youths astray from the right path, for that would be selfish and deadly.

Stubborn? perhaps, I don't doubt it at all
See, I have in my family quite a variety of belief systems, from Atheist to Jehovah's Witnesses and almost everything in between.
My perspective on things is probably quite different than yours or others.
As an example, last year I went to a JW wedding of two young people, she was 20 and he was 22, that were getting married because, well, they pretty much "had to" if they wanted to be "together". The certainly loved each other but it was quite clear the main reason for getting married NOW was to be together.
But lets put all that aside for now.
I have a cousin who is Jewish, by marriage and we get along quite well and his uncle being a orthodox rabbi and he himself working for the Jewish Research Center ( History department), we discuss religion and the OT quite a bit.
The notion of pre-marital sex has come up ( both of us have daughters) and once we had the discussion with his Orthodox Rabbi uncle and even the uncle said that because the OT laws were a bit vague on the matter, rabbinic law ( or what later became know as rabbinc law, made it more explicit).
Of course marriage as was know in the OT days was not the same as now, the "insitutuion" of marriage was quite different as we know it now.
All that said, it was pretty much a given that the Woman was to be a virgin for her marriage and marriages as such a young age pretty much guaranteed that.

I know you are making it about SIN, period, but while that simple view point may work for Christians ( some), it doesn't work for ALL and it cna be agrued that it may not even be what is in the best interest for people NOWADAYS, for a mirad of reasons.

Personally my little ones are to young to learn about this now ( 4 and but as soon as they are old enough I will express to them, as best I can, why I feel they should wait for marriage to be intimate with someone and I will exress it in terms of the bible (being a christian) but also in terms OUTSIDE the bible.
To think that simply telling someone it is a SIN is enough, well...maybe it's the people I know and maybe they are all "bad people" but that just wouldn't be "god enough".

Back to the issue at hand and as you stated:
We are debating wether or not pre-marital sex is alright, under any condition.

Well then, you are stating that it is NOT right, under ANY conditions, correct?
So I ask, under what conditions IS sex alright? marriage only?
Marriage under God?
Which God and which religion?
Civil marriage not under God?

[esabelly]

How can our society get the foundation of families and marriage back strong? Statistically speaking marriage is way better than being single. People who are married live longer, have many tax and health benefits.

[esabelly]

When the institution of marriage goes down the tube, do men lose power? In other words, when women independently decide to have babies out of wedlock and remain single, do men lose out the most?

[PaulSacramento]

When the institution of marriage goes down the tube, do men lose power? In other words, when women independently decide to have babies out of wedlock and remain single, do men lose out the most?

What about women that decide to have babies without the need of a Man?
2000 years ago the virgin birth was a miracle but nowadays a virgin can give birth to a child via the process of artifical insemination and not need a Man or to be married or to even have sex.

[Murray]

When the institution of marriage goes down the tube, do men lose power? In other words, when women independently decide to have babies out of wedlock and remain single, do men lose out the most?

no the child without a dad does