Did Jesus really say we'd never know?

[Dark Pony]

So most of you here I'm sure heard about Harold Camping's claim of Judgement Day this coming Saturday May 21. (If there is a link to this topic could you please post it?)

Anyway of course there are numerous stories on the topic and thousands of comments about it.

I've ran across 2 comments several times and I'd really like some input on it.

1) Some say Jesus claimed God would return within his lifetime, but he did not. So does this make Jesus wrong?

2) The book of Matthew was written 70-75 years after Jesus' died on the cross, therefore Jesus did NOT say that we can never know when Christ will return.

Again, I don't completely agree with these comments, but it has my brain stirring. Any input is appreciated!

[Maytan]

My faith is in Jesus, not Camping. He'll come back when he comes back, and that's the end of it for me.

I wouldn't worry about it. Though, I hope you get answers for your questions!

[RickD]

are people still listening to that false prophet, Camping? He was around in the 1980's peddling this garbage. Is he still making false predictions?

[Silvertusk]

If you read Matthew carefully most of what he was referring to was the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD which did happen in people's life times where an estimated half a million Jews were killed. His second coming can be seen as an event yet to happen still. Also for one particular member of his audience,however the second coming did happen - John saw it all in his vision and he was still alive at the time.

Silvertusk.

[Dark Pony]

If you read Matthew carefully most of what he was referring to was the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD which did happen in people's life times where an estimated half a million Jews were killed. His second coming can be seen as an event yet to happen still. Also for one particular member of his audience,however the second coming did happen - John saw it all in his vision and he was still alive at the time.

Silvertusk.

So John saw a vision of Jesus coming? What is the significant of him having a vision? I really need to study my Bible more

are people still listening to that false prophet, Camping? He was around in the 1980's peddling this garbage. Is he still making false predictions?

Unfortunately, Yes. It's been pretty hard to not run across an article on it, or even a billboard lol.

[Katabole]

Jesus claims that no knows the day or the hour, only His Father.

Matt 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. (KJV)

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Preterists would tell you that the destruction of Jerusalem was fulfilled in 70 AD, but in Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 Jesus makes it clear that every stone in Jerusalem would be torn down when He returns.

The Western Wall of Herod's temple still stands and it is constructed out of stones. If the Roman general Titus had torn the Western Wall down, then preterists would be on to something. He didn't, thus the return of Christ is still future and the preterists are in error.

We are living in a time when Israel is a country, so if you understand the parable of the fig tree in Matt 24 and Mark 13, then Christ should return sometime within the generation after that country became a nation. A biblical generation is not the same length of time as a human generation. There also has to be a movement away from the Christian faith (2Thess), the great apostacy, and a massive decline in morality (2Tim 3) before Christ returns.

Camping as Rick said, is nothing but a false teacher probably trying to get followers to pay his bills and get them to believe in God out of fear.

[PaulSacramento]

Lets also not forget Acts 1:
The Ascension of Jesus

(Mk 16:19–20; Lk 24:50–53)

6 So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, is this the time when you will restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He replied, “It is not for you to know the times or periods that the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” 9 When he had said this, as they were watching, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 10 While he was going and they were gazing up toward heaven, suddenly two men in white robes stood by them. 11 They said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking up toward heaven? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

[mandelduke]

Matthew 24:36
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

[Silvertusk]

Pity it couldn't be the 20th - I hate Fridays - My worst teaching day.

Silvertusk.

[Silvertusk]

So John saw a vision of Jesus coming? What is the significant of him having a vision? I really need to study my Bible more

I am referring to Johns Vision in Revalation.

[CeT-To]

May 21st is tomorrow, see you guys soon in heaven

[secretfire6]

we are to look for the signs of his return, to keep on our guard against false teachers, false prophets and false messiahs (antichrists). Sure nobody knows the hour or the day, but a true believer should be able to recognize the signs of the prophesies and could pin it down to the decade or even the year. This is why careful study of end times prophecy is important and why many preterists, historists and Jehovah's witnesses may be caught off guard. These views hold that 90-100% of the prophesies about the end times have been fulfilled and its all done and over with. At least the jehovah's witnesses are aware that the beast and the antichrist have not yet arrived.

This harold Camping fellow, is he by chance in one of these groups?

[RickD]

). Sure nobody knows the hour or the day, but a true believer should be able to recognize the signs of the prophesies and could pin it down to the decade or even the year

Sorry secretfire, I respectfully disagree with this statement. Pat Robertson attempted to pin it down to the exact year. And, I believe Chuck Smith tried as well. While they aren't as bold as to say the exact hour it will happen, it paints them in the same light as Camping when the time comes and passes. Many poor people have been led astray by these kind of leaders who were trusted by many. Just do a google search and see how many have tried to predict the year or decade.

[secretfire6]

ah ok, but i guess what im saying is that it wont come as a big suprise to everyone. There is alot of serious stuff that will come to pass before our lord returns and believers will see it comming if they understand the scriptures correctly. We knew it wouldnt happen yesterday because of many of the prophesies for the end times arent even close to being fulfilled. i know there are groups who say the prophesies have been fulfilled and that all we are waiting on is either the 7th trumpet or for the destruction of all things by fire, but thats why we should place an emphasis on CORRECTLY understanding the scripture, which is really hard believe me i know. I'm currently studying 5 different views on revelation and its amazing how radically different they all are in time scale, but all basically the same in idea and content.

[Canuckster1127]

Harold Camping is not a part of the JWs or Seventh Day Adventists. In fact, Camping started out in Presbyterian and Baptist churches where he taught Sunday School to adults and became very popular. He helped to found Family Life Radio and over time he drifted toward KJV only, Young Earth Creationism (and yes I know that will offend some that I note that, but it's true never the less and it specifically ties into his date setting, so it is relevant to note) and numerological interpretations of prophetic passages which he took as literal along with asserting the validity of his calculation methods. He made this claim once before in 1994 and was wrong. He claimed at that time that if it wasn't 1994 then it was 2011.

Camping isolated his followers by telling them that the church age was over (dispensationalism as well involved here.) He then lumped all institutional churches together and categorized them as satanic institutions which were to be ignored and avoided with only Camping's teachings to be listened to and adhered to. The Family Radio broadcast sought to function as a church itself of sorts with hymn programs, teaching from Camping.

Over the years Camping's group had actually shrunk. After the 1994 false prophesy, many followers and board members left. Of Camping's family, only his wife follows him. His children and grand-children have abandoned him and many have spoken out declaring him delusional and a false teacher. Sadly after 1994 there were incidents of suicide and murder among his followers too, and I'm concerned for some of his followers today.

Frankly, I think the focus of the rapture as an interpretation of Scripture is less than 200 years old as it is now commonly taught in some mainstream elements of the church. I see a lot of elements of churches to varying degrees get caught up in setting specific dates (like Camping) and many who don't set specific dates but attempt to convince everyone that we're in the last days right now. I don't see a great deal of difference to be honest. It's just one of degree.

Christians are told to live with the expectation that Christ could return at any time. Beyond that, dwelling on trying to tie prophecy to modern news events and political configurations leads to all sorts of nonsense, again in my opinion. It's enough to focus upon Christ, love Him and to learn to live and walk in His love. It's just an observation of mine and an opinion, not a judgment on any individuals, but it seems to me that many who focus upon this element and elevate it above the other themes in Scripture, tend to be alarmists and seeks to motivate others out of fear to accept God and Christ, or they attempt to use their "inside information and understanding" as a platform to promote themselves as pastors, teachers or even modern day prophets. It will no doubt again, possibly offend some, but while I understand they didn't engage in specific date setting, I don't see Hal Lindsay or Tim LaHaye's Left Behind series as too far removed from this as well.

I understand we're to study and seek to understand everything that is revealed to us in Scripture and that includes prophecy. I do seek to understand it and live in the light of the expectation of Christ return. I respect many who look at these themes and seek to understand them. I just think it's a very short trip from a part of the Christian life to an unhealthy focus and a shift from walking in the love of Christ to walking in the fear of what might happen in the future. Christ taught us directy we are to take no fear for tomorrow. Tomorrow will take care of itself. It's enough to know God loves us and will provide grace sufficient for any trial, even the playing out of the end times, whether we're in them now, or not.