1 Thessalonians 4:15-18: "Caught in the air"

[Christian2]

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 (New International Version)

15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Are we supposed to take this literally? -- that Christians will "caught up together together with them in the clouds", etc.?

Somehow I do not think this is what Paul meant.

Thanks.

[Katabole]

Hi Christian2

Well, you'll probably get different responses depending on whether or not believers believe in the rapture or not.

I don't believe in the rapture in any form, so I'll expalin what is meant from that perspective. I understand that the verses you listed, should not be taken literally.

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, (KJV)

The word cloud as used in this verse, is the same as the word clouds as used in 1Thes 4:17. Paul is using here a figure of speech denoting a large gathering of people. Paul would have used colloquial Greek, or street Greek when speaking to the Thessalonians. So the word cloud is something they would have understood.

When you have a "cloud of locusts", the "cloud" is in reference to the number that are in the group, and this expression can refer to anything that gathers in a large number, birds, or people. So what Paul was saying when he refers to the "cloud", is an analogy that we are all gathered into one large group with Christ the center, and we call this group "the body of Christ".

Air is referring to breath of life our "breath of life" body or spiritual body. Paul claims we have two bodies: the physical and the spiritual.

1Cor 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

When Christ returns to the earth our physical bodies will be changed:

1Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This is what Paul was trying to explain to the Thessalonians. They didn't understand, so he wrote them a second letter making it clear that there is absolutley no way Christ can return to the earth, until Satan is here first.

When Christ returns, we are immediately changed and meet him with a great group of others (clouds) in our spiritual bodies (air). Why? Because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God and cannot stand before a holy God. When our flesh body dies, we will have no further need of them.

Hope that helps you.

[Christian2]

Hi Christian2

Well, you'll probably get different responses depending on whether or not believers believe in the rapture or not.

I don't believe in the rapture in any form, so I'll expalin what is meant from that perspective. I understand that the verses you listed, should not be taken literally.

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, (KJV)

The word cloud as used in this verse, is the same as the word clouds as used in 1Thes 4:17. Paul is using here a figure of speech denoting a large gathering of people. Paul would have used colloquial Greek, or street Greek when speaking to the Thessalonians. So the word cloud is something they would have understood.

When you have a "cloud of locusts", the "cloud" is in reference to the number that are in the group, and this expression can refer to anything that gathers in a large number, birds, or people. So what Paul was saying when he refers to the "cloud", is an analogy that we are all gathered into one large group with Christ the center, and we call this group "the body of Christ".

I don't believe the rapture -- Christians going up in the air to meet Jesus -- is meant to be taken literally either.

Air is referring to breath of life our "breath of life" body or spiritual body. Paul claims we have two bodies: the physical and the spiritual.

1Cor 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

When Christ returns to the earth our physical bodies will be changed:

1Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This is what Paul was trying to explain to the Thessalonians. They didn't understand, so he wrote them a second letter making it clear that there is absolutley no way Christ can return to the earth, until Satan is here first.

When Christ returns, we are immediately changed and meet him with a great group of others (clouds) in our spiritual bodies (air). Why? Because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God and cannot stand before a holy God. When our flesh body dies, we will have no further need of them.

Hope that helps you.

Please read this article:

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/New ... friendly=1

Thanks.

[Katabole]

That is an excellent answer from Dr. Craig in response to two hard questions. I agree. I would just add that Christ had to be resurrected physically to prove He rose from the dead.

Dr. Craig said:

But someday Christ will return and re-enter our four-dimensional space-time continuum, and then his body will become manifest. In the new heavens and the new earth Christ will be corporeally present to his people. Christ, then, has a human nature which is manifested as his physical resurrection body when he exists in a spatio-temporal universe.

Very well said! I'm glad he believes in a literal return of Christ.

[Canuckster1127]

A lot of people don't realize it, but the rapture as an expressed theological doctrine has only been around for less than 200 years. It traces back to a minister named Darby and it became particularly popular through the references to it by D.L. Moody.

Prior to that, there was no separation in terms of understanding of a Rapture independant of the actual second coming of Christ.

[B. W.]

Rapture Verses

Will there be a rapture or not? You decide. Please note what Proverbs 1:2, 3, 4, 5, 6c and Ecclesiastes 12:11 states and why Jesus spoke in Parables. Not all truth is made know flat out and direct – it is oft spoke by God from God in an enigma, riddle, as dark sayings throughout the bible. As Proverbs 25:2 states: “It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter. NKJV

We too must seek and explore, just because something appears to be found 200 years ago does not mean that what was found is not much older than first supposed… Many People before Jesus time on earth and during his time on earth misread scriptures too thinking they had light, yet missed the light totally. There were many diverse opinions concerning who and what the Messiah would be. Then he came – and still many doubted and failed to see the need for the cross and why.

Notice that there are two distinct resurrections mentioned in…

Revelation 20:6, "Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. NKJV

What is this first Resurrection, and is it mentioned elsewhere? From there you begin to uncover the riddle of the all wise God…to us to uncover…

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18, "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. NASB

Seems to be pointing to this event Jesus mentions in…

Matthew 24:31,"And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Matthew 24:27, 28, 29, 30, 31 – ESV

Can this be? Does the Old Testament mention any thing rapture like that must correspond to a time when God pours out his final wrath on all humanity?

Well in the Old Testament we find that this event does appear to come just before God's great wrath is poured out which is in line with the book of Revelation. Psalms 50 gives such clues…

Psalms 50:2, 3, 4, 5, 6, "Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God shines forth. 3 Our God comes; he does not keep silence; before him is a devouring fire, around him a mighty tempest. 4 He calls to the heavens above and to the earth, that he may judge his people: 5 "Gather to me my faithful ones, who made a covenant with me by sacrifice!" 6 The heavens declare his righteousness, for God himself is judge! Selah" ESV

Again in the following OT verses note what it says...

Isaiah 26:20, 21, "Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past. 21 For behold, the LORD comes out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; The earth will also disclose her blood, And will no more cover her slain." NKJV

This verse clearly has not happened yet nor has...

Zephaniah 2:2, 3 "Before the decree is issued, Or the day passes like chaff, Before the LORD's fierce anger comes upon you, Before the day of the LORD's anger comes upon you! 3 Seek the LORD, all you meek of the earth, Who have upheld His justice. Seek righteousness, seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden In the day of the LORD's anger." NKJV

Daniels words as well as the sequence of events he describes are ambiguous but putting the pieces together the clues appearline up with the other clues mentioned elsewhere...

Daniel 12:1, 2, 3c, "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever."

…and a picture emerges. This picture, one may doubt or proudly claim are just strung haphazard together to make a doctrine, people have that right. For me, all the clues point to a rapture that in all probability will come seconds before God’s full wrath mentioned in Revelations and the last chapters if Isaiah come about.

Reminds me of Five Wise and Five Foolish (Matthew 25:1-13) parable which speaks a profound truth: There will be those who think they know it all and sit comfortably numb cemented to what they believe in ever dimming light while others will be watching with a wise heart, understanding they need wicks trimmed, oil full, ready to rise. Don’t know about anyone else but I’d like to be part of the wise…who watch and keeping the lamp burning bright.

Will there be a rapture or not? You decide.

Matthew 24:45, "...Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season?" NKJV
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[jlay]

Bart's statement is a little misleading. The issue is, will believers literally be called to glory while alive on the earth? That basic concept is right there for all to read. So it has been around for that amount of time if not longer. I don't disagree that it has developed into more diverse eschatology in more recent times. The argument Bart presents is really a criticism against a particular dispensational theology that presents the rapture in the context of believers being taken out of the world, while non-believers are left-behind to face the tribulation, etc. etc. That is a part of dispensational, pre-millenial eschatology. Bart's comment is a common one. Although on one hand it is true, on the other I think it is arbitrary.
http://www.fbcsparks.org/library/Dispen ... tology.pdf
BTW, regarding dispensational eschatology. I am not a banner waiver in regards to this area. For as Kat pointed out, there may be more figurative language being used, so that how all this plays out in reality is different than some of us understand. As a disp. I am not as ingrained and settled in that thinking.

A dispensationalist holds to a grammatical historical reading of scripture, or at leat they should. Where many dispensationlists err is by saying we hold to a 'literal' reading of scripture. This is fine, except it doesn't really convey the depth of what is meant by literal interpretation. The real question is, "what was Paul literally trying to communicate when he wrote........?" To answer that question depends on context, audience, etc. So a proper exegesis is in order. Often times we will use a figurative concept or analogy to communicate a literal idea. For example, John tells us in writing Revelation, that He had a vision, and that this vision had many items that were symbolic of representing other things. So, we would be naive in saying that there is a literal "whore of Babylon,' in the sense that there will be a real living woman engaged in the employment of prostitution. Also Jesus taught with parables using allegorical, figurative language. Was there a literal prodigal son?

The age of a theological concept or tradition doesn't validate or negate. For example, Paul spoke of a hidden concept that he was revealing. Should the 1st century church have rejected this because it was 'new?'

[Canuckster1127]

I stand by my statement and I can understand why some may see it by itself as an argument against a literal rapture. My statement or something to close effect is incorporated into arguments against the whole or elements of the rapture as it is presented.

As I see it however, it's simply a fact. The appeal to the text itself as proof doesn't change the fact that there is not written preserved evidence that others in Church History viewed and interpretted Scripture in the manner that popular "rapture based eschatology" presents it. It begs the question, when some relatively new teaching comes along that wasn't understood in that manner previously is really scriptural but even putting that aside it at the least points too how important such concerns are in the overall fabric or Christian life and living.

I was saved at a viewing of the film "Thief in the Night" in April of 1975 at the age of 12. I grew up from about the age of 12 in churches which you entered into Sunday School rooms and there were charts on the wall laying out in great detail exactly how Christ was going to return pre-trib, and premillenial and the denomination I went on to be ordained in, while not dogmatic officially in this realm, very much tied premillenialism into its rational for Christian Missions. I got personally caught up into the Hal Lindsay "Late Great Planet Earth" craze and while I didn't get as much into the LaHaye "Left Behind" series it was right there in most of the church contexts.

Frankly, I don't really care as much about it as a realm of emphasis in my Christian walk and study. I'm burned out on it and I don't find it particularly profitable as a focus by which to know Christ better. I can parrot several different party lines on eschatology without much effort. I read Pentecost's "Things to Come" and cut my teeth theologically on his dispensationalism. It's not for a lack of study that I say the things I do.

Maybe my opinion will change. I don't have any quarrel with others who are caught up and fascinated by it. There's certainly an eschatological theme in many elements of Scripture and there's value in considering. I think many are way out of balance with worrying about trying to understand how things are going to happen rather then hearing the broad overarching theme which is simply to live with the expectancy that Christ could return at any time and to be prepared personally at any time to meet Christ, whether by Christ's return or by death.

So, my comment is not meant to be derisive of others. It's simply an honest expression of where I am personally and it's after many years of being immersed and marinated as it were with the resultant hype, and appeals to guilt and shame that ties to how many have used that doctrine to promote programs and organizations rather than remaining focused upon Christ. I've seen it used (and used it myself in the past) as an appeal to guilt and shame in people to proformance and I see that now for what it was and I don't desire to walk that way, or to put those types of burdens on others. That's not a dig at others. It's just how I see it.

Jesus is enough for me to focus upon now, to know Him better. I have enough to focus upon learning to grow and walk with Him, now and in the present. Tomorrow will care for itself and knowing Christ as I do, I'm content to trust Him for that future regardless of how events actually play out and whether we are or are not in the last days right now or not.

[Canuckster1127]

This is a reasonably good article giving a very brief and high level overview of the history of dispensationalism and tracing it through the history of the American Church.

http://www.theologicalstudies.org/dispen.html

It's easy to google for more. Just google Dispensational Rapture Darby or some combination and you'll find a ton of information from all sorts of different backgrounds. The one I found is fairly neutral and informational and comes from a PhD who has strong evangelical credentials so I thought it was a reasonable place to start for any who want to know more about some of the framework to some of the discussion here and a lot of the other thread related to prophesy and the end-times.

[Celeste]

I agree, Canuckster. The point of our walk with Jesus should be getting to know Him more and preparing to meet Him...and worshipping Him...if we don't enjoy it here on earth, what will we spend our time doing in heaven!!
I think the majority of us get saved out of fear of going to he'll or getting "left behind", but if we listen to the the Lord and follow Him, it becomes less about that and more about just being in His presence.

[messiahette]

Shalom, Greetings and God bless you all.

The choice of Bible versions is very important and the reason is that in trying to bring language contemporary, a lot of essential truth and meaning is lost. The NIV version is not a trustworthy version, personally I choose the King James Version of the Bible.

The question here seems to be on being "caught up" or "raptured", these two phrases have the same meaning.
Education and theoplogy will never bring you to true understanding of God's Word it takes Divine Revelation of the Holy Spirit to get its true meaning. And because people of today are not so concerned about their souls, we live in a society that is selfish and only looks to see what is of benefit to themselves. So when they approach the Word of God, they choose what to believe and What not to, instead of going to the Author of the Word to get the true Revelation, and His Perfect will.
Because the Bible is the Revelation of One Theme and Person: Jesus Christ. From Genesis to Revelation it reveals Jesus Christ.

Now the question of the Rapture is, is there going to be a Rapure? Well is the Rapture important, what is the significance of it? and Who will go into the Rapture?

Is there going to be a Rapture? Yes, Why do I say this? because the Bible declares so and also foreshadows this.
Is it then so hard to believe in a Rapture when it has happened before? In a scientific and intellectual age it would be, but to true sons and daughters of God, this is not strange.

What is a Rapture: A translation> There are 5 Raptures in the Bible, the next one to occur is the 4th and Moses and Elijah will be the 5th. If you want to know more email: bevan.coles@yahoo.com. God bless you

[Tiffany Dawn]

Harpazo-

Harpazo-is the Scriptural Concept of what has been called the Rapture-

The Word "Rapture" is not in the Bible-
The Word rapture is a reference to the "being caught up" referred to in
1 Thessalonians 4:17, when the "dead in Christ" and "we who are alive and remain" will be caught up in the clouds to meet "the Lord".[1]

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the LORD in the air: and so shall we ever be with the LORD"
(1Thessalonians 4:17).

Harpazo (har-pad'-zo) is the Greek word which the New Testament translators have rendered as "caught up". Rapture" is taken from an obsolete French word, which means "abduction" or "to carry off". Though Greek scholars may refrain from using "rapture" to translate "harpazo", it is not a wresting of Scripture for the honest Christian to see the connection between the two.
"According to your faith be it unto you" (Matthew 9:29).


See: http://www.jewishroots.net/library/mess ... ction.html

[Gman]

Ok I will try to weigh into this.. I don't see this as a rapture into the "air" so to speak, but rather more of a rapture into His presence spiritually..

My other belief is that our ultimate destiny we will be that we are exiled back to the land of Israel much like how the Jews were back in WW2. And it's not going to be a pretty thing.. Please note that this only applies to those who wish to identify themselves with the house of Israel.

[1harpazo]

Ok I will try to weigh into this.. I don't see this as a rapture into the "air" so to speak, but rather more of a rapture into His presence spiritually..

1 Thess 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. NASU

Unbuckle your seatbelt, Brother, you're about to go for a ride. 1 Thes. 4:17 is not a spiritual rapture. It is the physical transformation of your body when Jesus returns. The "air" in v. 17 is Greek=aera="air" (as naturally circumambient), not "pneuma": a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit. The rapture is when your body and soul are redeemed. Your spirit was redeemed when you got saved. This redemption occurs when Jesus comes (back). 1 Thes. 5:23-24: Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass. NASU


This is not just a spiritual gathering; it's for all the marbles. Paul then said, "Therefore comfort one another with these words." (1Thes. 4:18). These are comforting words that finally the mortal will put on the immortal and we will be with Jesus forever.

!!!