This is mostly directed at Calvinists and people who believe in divine election and/or predestination, not as an attack of your view but as an effort to better understand the Calvinist perspective, since I've started to consider that it might be biblical,yet I have extreme problems with it.
Lately I've been thinking a lot about the ideas of predestination, our wills, determinism, and how they affect who is saved and who isn't. I was debating someone and they persuaded me that at least some degree of predestination and divine election are ideas taught in the Bible, with chapters like Romans 9 and various others that teach that no one comes to Jesus unless the Father raises him up first. However, I have severe personal issues with accepting the idea of election because this would mean that people who are unsaved never had a chance to be saved, ever, at all, at any point in time, and that this is because God simply choose not to save them. I feel this is incompatible with the idea that God desires that all would be saved.
In addition, in this deterministic view of the world, I think this would mean that we do not have free will, but only the illusion of it. This would also imply that God was ultimately the author of sin and not man or the Devil, since nothing happens that is outside of God's will and it all only happens as God predetermines. Even if you say it was the Devil and not God who introduced sin into the world, God still created the Devil and probably predestined him to do what he does, like he predestines us. Any way you look at it, it looks like God is the ultimate author of sin in a Calvinistic worldview, rather than sin being a necessary evil under the free will/self-determined Arminian model. To me, it just seems silly that God is offended by sin and rejects nonforgiven people who commit it if it was always part of his will and knowledge before the universe or people were even created. It also seems to make evangelism to others appear somewhat futile since whoever is saved will be saved anyway and whoever is damned will be damned anyway. Bascially I can understand why our sinful nature is punishable if it was under our own will that we became sinful, but not if it was predestined by God that we would do so. I feel that if we had absolutely no choice in the matter of sin or salvation, that it would be more holy and just to be sympathetic of the human condition rather than expect something that is an impossibility, like that we ought to somehow break free of how we were predetermined.
There are probably other ideas I want to get out but haven't articulated them in this post. I think should be a good start though.
Predestination and the Author of Sin
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Predestination and the Author of Sin
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Re: Predestination and the Author of Sin
Pre-destination and election are ABSOLUTELY taught in the bible. That isn't the issue. The issue is whose interpretation of pre-destination and election is right. FWIW, I reject much of what Calvinism/Reformed theology teaches regarding this issue. What you point out as determinism.
We had an in-depth discussion on this not long ago.
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... ion#p94009
Puritan Lad is very apt at communicating the RF position on these. Unfortunately he isn't consistent in his involvement here at G&S. Haven't seen him in a few months now. I think he manages his own blog.
Of all the objections you list, most RT can give you an answer. I disagree with their answers, but you can review the old thread as most of them are addressed.
We had an in-depth discussion on this not long ago.
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... ion#p94009
Puritan Lad is very apt at communicating the RF position on these. Unfortunately he isn't consistent in his involvement here at G&S. Haven't seen him in a few months now. I think he manages his own blog.
Of all the objections you list, most RT can give you an answer. I disagree with their answers, but you can review the old thread as most of them are addressed.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord
"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
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Re: Predestination and the Author of Sin
Roger E Olson is coming out with a book this fall called Against Calvinism. I'm looking forward to it.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender
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Re: Predestination and the Author of Sin
That's also my problem with Calvinism. Actually, it's only a problem if the view isn't true, and therefore not a problem Ultimately, if everything is predetermined, at least to me it seems like God's actions are also predetermined. You just end up with naturalism, except throwing in a God who is very similar to a multiverse or whatever science would call it.
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Re: Predestination and the Author of Sin
Calvinism effectively starts with the philosophy of Greek Determinism and then reasons backwards from that to make scripture that support it trump those that do not, or at least ignore or explanin them away.
Predestination as a word is in the scripture. That doesn't mean that the definition attributed to it by Calvinists (the greek deterministic definition) is what the Bible is referring to.
When Scripture is made into pieces to fit in a jigsaw puzzle, you have to ask yourself if the picture being constructed is actually in the scriptures or if those scriptures are being effectively used as paint to present a picture outside of the scriptures. Not all Calvinism or Reformed Theology is wrong or of no value in my opinion. The dominant themes however in my opinion are not drawn from the Scriptures themselves. They are drawn from Greek deterministic philosophy and Stoicism.
Predestination as a word is in the scripture. That doesn't mean that the definition attributed to it by Calvinists (the greek deterministic definition) is what the Bible is referring to.
When Scripture is made into pieces to fit in a jigsaw puzzle, you have to ask yourself if the picture being constructed is actually in the scriptures or if those scriptures are being effectively used as paint to present a picture outside of the scriptures. Not all Calvinism or Reformed Theology is wrong or of no value in my opinion. The dominant themes however in my opinion are not drawn from the Scriptures themselves. They are drawn from Greek deterministic philosophy and Stoicism.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender
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Re: Predestination and the Author of Sin
What would be the non-Calvinistic view of determinism/predestination?
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Re: Predestination and the Author of Sin
Just have to say here that whenever I've seen a Calvinist debate and defend their position they have done it consistently and thoroughly and had an biblical answer for every question/objection posed to them. Doesn't necessarily follow that their position is 'right,' but I do think it is illuminating. I'm still working through my take on predestination and election, but have to say that I keep coming back again and again to the Calivinsts' interpretation.
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Re: Predestination and the Author of Sin
Arminianism for one.Seraph wrote:What would be the non-Calvinistic view of determinism/predestination?
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender