Homosexuality

[Murray]

If homosexuality is a choice this would mean god is just.

If it is not a choice god applys to strict calvanist principles and is unjust.

But what I do not understand is how it can be a choice when people kill themselves over being gay, I mean if they want to be straight could they no just choose to be? Honestly, I could not stand being called such nasty words such as a acrnom for gay, I would immediatly want to become straight......

Heres the link to the gay churches view on why being gay is okay.
http://www.gaychurch.org/gay_and_christ ... an_yes.htm

[Seraph]

Guess I'm not the best person to give an answer since I'm of the belief that we did evolve from animals, and that homosexuality is NOT a choice.

[Murray]

well thats what I was getting at lol, It almost seems like that does it not?

[Seraph]

Yup. I used to think ill of homosexual people, but my stance toward homosexuality has changed over the years as I see more and more evidence that a persons homosexuality is part of a persons created nature rather than a choice. In addition, after seeing how many people struggle with their homosexual feelings and feel deeply ashamed of them to a self-destructive level, the idea that it's a choice seems completely ludicrous to me. To me, it seems that many people just WANT it to be a choice because it would justify their condemnation of it.

Leviticus forbids sex between two people of the same gender, but the book of Leviticus forbids many things that Christians today freely take part in, because the book applies to the Levites and not all people. Yet many "Christians" appear to have a personal vendetta against gays which is rooted in their own bigoted hatred, rather than a Godly anger at sin.

[Murray]

Livitican law was law for jews to live by until the messia came, and we believe he has come so thus Mosian, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy are all invalid to a practicing christian, the only laws in the old testament that christians are told to abide by are the 10 commandments, the rest of our moral guidlines should be following the teachings of jesus christ and the laws that he taught and stressed.

[Tevko]

The laws in the OT were given to a people by a God who is unchanging and eternal. If God did not allow for homosexuality then and went so far as to declare a penalty for its practice then, would he not still be upset by it's practice today? Also, it is established in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 that homosexual activity is foreign to the kingdom of God. The OT law was very cultural but also serves as a guide to what exactly was/is an offense against God (sin) and what is not.

I would agree that homosexuality is targeted and it is difficult for many Christians to deal with it in a Christ like manner, however there are several sinful acts which society has taken an acceptance towards, and even Christians today have started to wrongfully declare as no longer sinful. I believe homosexuality is one of those sinful acts and as a result deserves scrutiny. It is okay not to tolerate homosexuality yet still love the person who is engaging in the sinful act. It is Christ like to hate the sin and not the sinner however there is no room for a backpedaling on the stance taken by Christians in regards to a homosexual life style. It is defined in the old and new testament as wrong and therefore Christians are to treat it as such whilst still showing love towards those held in captivity by such sin.It is dangerous when, in an attempt not to hurt the feelings of others, we as Christians disregard certain truths about sin. Jesus offended A LOT of people and was crucified for such.

Finally if sin is a choice, as defined in the bible, and homosexuality is a sin, as defined in both old and new testament, then reason dictates that homosexuality is in fact a choice.

[Murray]

God who is unchanging and eternal

Really?

You believe god has never changed, Please take 30 days and re-read genisis through revalation and tell me with a straight face you see no change in gods behavior. God created us in his images, we are souls bound to change and adapt, why is it so far off to say god is not the same way..

[Tevko]

I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."—Malachi 3:6



Heb. 13:8

Ps. 119:89

James 1:17

God's word is settled in heaven; it will not change.

Ec. 3:14



Whatever God does, it shall be forever. Nothing can be added to or taken from whatever God does (cf. Deut. 4:2; Rev. 22:18-19).

Heb. 6:17



God's counsel is immutable (i.e., does not change).

Jas. 1:17

[Tevko]

Btw, I really hope God does not change, I would really like for Christ's death to still count as payment for my sins.

[Murray]

thats just it isnt it?god went from an almost cruel and angry god to a god who gave his only son for the forgivness of our sins

[Murray]

if your child talked back to you would you have him stoned?

and this does not change that livitican laws were laws for jews to live by until the messia came

[Murray]

And again, back to my origonal question, If god hates gays so much, why did he program animals to be homsexual, I mean animals have no free because they do not have souls, so thus they do not have a choice.

[Tevko]

No, were talking about the same God through both old and new testament. The primary purpose of the old testament was to lead up to a final sacrifice.

This article puts it better than I can - http://www.exchangedlife.com/QandA/OTSaintsSaved.shtml

"The primary purpose of the law in the Old Testament was to show the world that they were guilty before God and how it is impossible to keep the law – and even if you could, it still would not justify a single person. The law opens our eyes by showing us the knowledge of sin. The law does keep us civilized, but its primary purpose is to open our eyes to sin. The Old Testament saints were not saved by keeping the law nor were they saved by the sacrifices they performed. The Bible tells us that the sacrifice was a yearly reminder of sin and that it foreshadowed the true sacrifice that was to come in Jesus Christ."


When looking at the bible, there is a unified historical theme - God made man, man sinned, a system was put into place allowing for a final sacrifice erasing the penalty of mans sin.

The last step is obviously the longest one, however the most important thing to remember is that God operates outside of time therefore the God of the Old testament is the same god we pray to today. The God whom Moses spoke to several thousand years ago is the same exact God who grants you and I salvation.



Again, you are forgetting the culture aspect. Yes, the laws back then were harsh, however they are justifiable. I suggest you read "Is God a moral monster" By Paul Copan. He explains the OT laws in full detail.


Regarding homosexuality in animals, Sin is defined as a free willed offense by a Human being (since were the only ones with free will) against God. By very definition, Animals cannot sin. God programmed animals to eat each other, does that mean its okay for humans to eat each other? Or rape each other, as animals engage in?
Of course not, because Humanity knows better and it is humanity who has the rational capabilities of deciding against sin. I believe that the whole Earth is affected by sin and acts in a way contrary to God's will because of that, however is because of humanity that this has happened in the first place and it is only humanity which knows that sin is bad and has the choice to or not to sin.

[Tevko]

God does not hate those who are homosexuals. He hates the act of homosexuality and has designated a penalty for it. At the same time he loves the person held captive by the sin and therefore He sent Christ to die for and free that person.

[Murray]

This is how I see it:

-God created us

-God had extremly high standards of us, similar to that of his angels

-God gave us free will, which we do abuse, This made god extremly upset for thousands of years until he came to terms that as long as Humans have free will, They will sin and anger me.

You say that god is a constantly pissed off at us and always has been. God is jesus, So why did jesus not condem so many to death as he did in the old testament? Jesus came not only to die for our sins, but to set new law and moral codes to live our lives by. We do not live by leviticus law, hence we do not stone people to death like muslims.

And your answer on animal homosexuality is the best by far I have seen on the internet, very well put.