question for calvinists

[Echoside]

So I've been thinking lately about calvinism, in the strictest sense of belief. And honestly it seems kind of pointless. Notice I didn't say wrong or that it's not valid with scriptures, just that if it's true the value to it seems diminished. Here's what I mean :

Atheism - 1. Holds that all acts stem from a natural, unknown cause. Morality is in a sense an illusion, and therefore it is often said to atheists that if they do not believe in an afterlife, they should just party or whatever since this is the only life they have. Sort of a carpe diem type deal.

So let's say I'm the atheist above, and a Calvinist convinces me that God is real, Morality (at least as decreed by God) is very real, and there are punishments for wrongdoings in this life. However, I notice the passage James 2:19 as I start reading the bible. Wait a second, here it says that belief that God is real is something even demons know, yet they hold no allegiance to God. How do I know I am one of these elect to be chosen by God?

It seems to me that according to Calvinism (correct me if I'm wrong) God predestines his elect, those that will inherit the new life. Nothing is to be done about it on the human side of things.

So here's my new lifestyle, with the knowledge that God exists : I hold that all acts (at least in regard to salvation) are non existent. Morality is not necessarily an illusion, but the ability to be forgiven for my transgressions is not in my hands. Because I do not know my fate in the afterlife, and cannot control it, I should just party or whatever since this is the only life I know I have for sure. For God has saved much more evil men than me has he not? Look at Saul of Tarsus, for example.


Basically, it seems to me that even if a calvinist were to prove to me, beyond a doubt that God exists, the most I could do would be shrug my shoulders and say, "well I'll be here if God calls but in the meantime I think i'll enjoy what life I have left."


Is there an alternative I'm not seeing here?

[Seraph]

All excellent questions. Some of the exact same ones that I've been trying to find answers to.

[DRDS]

By any chance (assuming you have tried and have rejected Armenianism) Have you ever looked into a third view called Molinism which talks about God's "hidden knowledge"? People like William Lane Craig hold this view. So since he's one of the top Christian thinkers in the world today I assume it would be worth looking into.

[1over137]

So let's say I'm the atheist above, and a Calvinist convinces me that God is real, Morality (at least as decreed by God) is very real, and there are punishments for wrongdoings in this life. However, I notice the passage James 2:19 as I start reading the bible. Wait a second, here it says that belief that God is real is something even demons know, yet they hold no allegiance to God. How do I know I am one of these elect to be chosen by God?

The question is if we can compare demons and people. From what I read here http://www.journeyoutsidethecamp.com/20 ... saved.html:


However, Satan and his demons were not offered salvation. Hebrews 2:16 says, "For surely it is not angels that he [God] helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham." (The context here is deliverance from spirtual slavery and death.) God is saying here he saves man but not fallen angels, i.e., Satan and his demons. Also, 2 Peter 2:4 says, "God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment." (See also Jude 6.) It therefore seems pretty clear that God does not intend to save fallen angels.


it seems to me that we cannot.

[DannyM]

Atheism - 1. Holds that all acts stem from a natural, unknown cause. Morality is in a sense an illusion, and therefore it is often said to atheists that if they do not believe in an afterlife, they should just party or whatever since this is the only life they have. Sort of a carpe diem type deal.

So let's say I'm the atheist above, and a Calvinist convinces me that God is real, Morality (at least as decreed by God) is very real, and there are punishments for wrongdoings in this life. However, I notice the passage James 2:19 as I start reading the bible. Wait a second, here it says that belief that God is real is something even demons know, yet they hold no allegiance to God. How do I know I am one of these elect to be chosen by God?

It seems to me that according to Calvinism (correct me if I'm wrong) God predestines his elect, those that will inherit the new life. Nothing is to be done about it on the human side of things.

So here's my new lifestyle, with the knowledge that God exists : I hold that all acts (at least in regard to salvation) are non existent. Morality is not necessarily an illusion, but the ability to be forgiven for my transgressions is not in my hands. Because I do not know my fate in the afterlife, and cannot control it, I should just party or whatever since this is the only life I know I have for sure. For God has saved much more evil men than me has he not? Look at Saul of Tarsus, for example.


Basically, it seems to me that even if a calvinist were to prove to me, beyond a doubt that God exists, the most I could do would be shrug my shoulders and say, "well I'll be here if God calls but in the meantime I think i'll enjoy what life I have left."

I don't see that you have raised any searching questions at all here. Even if I do not hold to Calvinism, I am still assured of my salvation and therefore can still go out and do all the things you listed, safe and secure in my salvation. But I don't. Why would I?

[RickD]

Is there an alternative I'm not seeing here?

Yes, it's very possible that predestination that the bible speaks of, is not the same predestination of Calvinism.

[kmr]

There is predestination involved... God knew that he would use the Hebrew people to expose Christ to the world, he knew who would be his prophets, who would be the leaders, and yes, he even knows who will come to salvation. But the choice of salvation is up to us... think of Jonah. He was chosen by God to preach, but he disobeyed, and rejected that calling. He instead chose to run away. But God had chosen him, and in the end he decided to go through with the preaching to Nineveh. It was still his choice, regardless of God's calling him, he just needed a big nudge. If you look at that story, you see that, even though God chose him, predestined him if you will, for that task, it was still up to him whether or not he would do it. God hadn't predestined him because He knew that Jonah would immediately turn and do it, Jonah needed to be reminded of God's power (in the form of a whale) in order to choose to follow his calling. In the end, it was up to Jonah.

Same thing for us, it's not like God predestines us to follow and lead holy lives, it is our own choice to do so, and whoever repents will be saved. But there are some who reject this calling, who instead choose not to believe in God. What kind of faith do we have if we don't follow God's word even when we believe in it? To repent means to be sorry of your sins, and to turn away from them in open denial of committing them. But if you still go back and do them with no remorse, then you aren't really repenting, are you? And eventually, you reject your acceptance of Christ at all. Nobody is chosen to go to heaven by their birth, they are chosen because of whether or not they accept Christ. And nobody should choose a life of party because they don't know where they will end up, because in the end it is their own decisions that make that choice!

[Echoside]

I don't see that you have raised any searching questions at all here. Even if I do not hold to Calvinism, I am still assured of my salvation and therefore can still go out and do all the things you listed, safe and secure in my salvation. But I don't. Why would I?

of course it's a searching question, you are probably just looking at it from a point of view that isn't calvinism, so nothing i've said is a problem.

If I asked you how you felt about dying tomorrow you might respond that you are secure in your belief in Christ as per John 3:16 and have no problems with it.

Now what if I asked you how you felt about dying tomorrow knowing full well it's possible that you get sent to a blazing inferno for the rest of eternity, and not heaven at all? That's my question, If Calvinism was proven to me to be the most logical choice in my eyes, what would be the point?

@ DRDS I haven't yet rejected any of them, I only wonder what my response will be if the above scenario proves correct.


@ kmr Once again, I'm looking at a specific branch of Christianity which does not follow the paramaters as you have set them. The above question is not a challenge to armenianism or other theologies.

[kmr]

Oh, I get it, sorry, head in the sand over here!

Yes, I can see that such a viewpoint would hold little point. However, if you did believe in Calvinism, then you would still follow codes of morality because if you truly had faith, your goal wouldn't be to gain access into heaven, but to glorify the Lord in all that you do. It is the same with other types of Christianity, our faith assures us of our salvation, but we still try to follow the teachings of the Bible because it is our faith that drives us to worship and please the Lord. Access to heaven is just the grace of God given because of our choice to follow Him and believe in Him, but it shouldn't be the main goal of the Christian.

Besides, some sects of Calvinism believe that a person who is capable of doing a whole bunch of "works" is a sign that he has been one of the chosen.

[Echoside]

Oh, I get it, sorry, head in the sand over here!

Yes, I can see that such a viewpoint would hold little point. However, if you did believe in Calvinism, then you would still follow codes of morality because if you truly had faith, your goal wouldn't be to gain access into heaven, but to glorify the Lord in all that you do. It is the same with other types of Christianity, our faith assures us of our salvation, but we still try to follow the teachings of the Bible because it is our faith that drives us to worship and please the Lord. Access to heaven is just the grace of God given because of our choice to follow Him and believe in Him, but it shouldn't be the main goal of the Christian.

Besides, some sects of Calvinism believe that a person who is capable of doing a whole bunch of "works" is a sign that he has been one of the chosen.

Not quite, knowledge of the logical conclusions of Calvnism and being a Calvinist are two different things. Just as an atheist who denys God for reasons of anger knows he exists, I could believe Calvinism to be true yet hold no allegiance to it as a way of life.

That's an interesting point you brought up though. Do you truly believe if God told you right now he was going to send you to hell after death, and he was 100% serious, you would continue witnessing and defending Christianity? I doubt it, maybe if you tried to rationalize that it was just a "test".

@ the last part, I know many atheists who do good works all the time, are they chosen as well? Those who have no desire to enter into fellowship with God?

[DannyM]

Now what if I asked you how you felt about dying tomorrow knowing full well it's possible that you get sent to a blazing inferno for the rest of eternity, and not heaven at all? That's my question, If Calvinism was proven to me to be the most logical choice in my eyes, what would be the point?

What would be the point of what? Do you believe in God?

[kmr]

Ah. So if you were to believe it is true, but not accept it, then you would be like the Bible describes the demons (who believe and shudder). Obviously there would be no point in doing anything written in the Bible if you didn't want to accept God in your heart, for whatever reason. I know a few people like this, who openly refute God for whatever reason, suffering, tolerance etc. To me it doesn't sound like a very fulfilling lifestyle, to outright reject something you know to be true, especially if that something is your very creator. Ah well.

I honestly cannot say what I would do if God told me I was going to hell. If he said that everything Christianity says is true regardless, but I was still going to hell, I would continue witnessing just so that others wouldn't have to share my fate. Of course I would still defend the truth. But I don't know how I would react emotionally. If I had the choice to sacrifice my own salvation to save others who would utterly lose it unless for me, I think it would be the right decision to make that choice, regardless of what I were to actually decide. But if I had nothing to lose (having it already been lost), I would still try to save others because my salvation was already gone. As an additional note, I would not want to be like Satan, who in his rejection from heaven instead turned to spiteful bitterness and trying to turn others away.

I was only speaking about some Calvinists... if there were an atheist who did far more "good works" than others, some Calvinists may think he/she was among the chosen. Some may think that only a person who has strict dedication to God show the signs of being chosen. I cannot speak for all the various Calvinists out there.

[MarcusOfLycia]

The character of the God I know and love is in complete contradiction with a "God" who says "you are not saved, my Son cannot justify you, you are going to hell and that's that" in the lifetime he affords to us to make the choice. Being a member of the elect has more to do with God's foreknowledge of future events and less to do with us being completely locked into a set of actions we cannot chose. It very quickly falls into the contradiction that if we have no choice, God has all the choice, which means God doesn't just tempt us, He forces us to sin, forces us to be condemned, and forces us not to repent.

Pretty different from the one who sent His Son into the world not to condemn it, but to save it. In that type of case, would that "God" be saving it from himself?

[kmr]

This is the biggest problem I have with Calvinism. However, when I addressed it, I realized to my chagrin that this was a hypothetical question, regardless of how far from the truth it may be.

[Canuckster1127]

Calvinism in many ways is a direct response to the challenges of the Renaissance. Where Humanism and the resurgence of Greek Philosophy and Roman Law brought previously common assumptions into question, Calvin used the tools of the detractors against them to demonstrate the validity of Christianity. However, when you do that, by default you accept the underlying assumptions that framed those questions to begin with. In the case of Calvinism, in my opinion, the seeds of many of the underlying assumptions lead to conclusions and support systems for them that have more to do with that framework than Christ or Scripture.