Homosexuality

[Seraph]

God does not change, He most certainly never came to terms with anything over time. He's all knowing and soverign so there isn't anything that could take Him by surprise. The Bible says that God knew that Jesus would need to come and die before the universe began.

God definately does not change, but I really don't think that everything He decrees is eternal and timeless. There are a lot of laws in the Old Testament that only the Jewish people were expected to follow because it pertained only to them in their time and location, such as the endless sanitary laws about how to remain clean versus unclean. Perhaps homosexuality is the same way.

Either way, it does not change the fact that homosexuality is not a choice and I really don't think that accusing gay people of willfully sinning by being gay is justifiable in any way, which is why I'm willing to give homosexuality the benefit of the doubt. It definately seems to me from a biological standpoint that they are "hardwired" to be gay, so it perplexes me that God would so fiercely condemn people for something that they have no control over and were apparently designed to be. I cannot see how people can naturally be a certain way, yet not be "natural" (whatever that means).

[neo-x]

You say that god is a constantly pissed off at us and always has been. God is jesus, So why did jesus not condem so many to death as he did in the old testament? Jesus came not only to die for our sins, but to set new law and moral codes to live our lives by. We do not live by leviticus law, hence we do not stone people to death like muslims.

Well, just an insight, although on a general note I agree with you, the story of women in John Chp 8 is a very good example. Jesus never said that she should not be stoned on the contrary he said that he who has not sinned should cast the first stone. Sin is sin, whether you do it accidentally or by choice. The law that God gave was eternal and the reason we are exempted from it is not that it has a lesser moral ground but that it does not apply when we come in grace.

David exclaimed that "All his precepts are sure; they are established forever and ever" (Psalm 119:152)

Every one of thy righteous ordinances endureth forever (Ps. 119:160)

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Timothy 3:16-17

Do you know what scripture was Paul referring to when he wrote this verse to Timothy? The O.T. not the N.T as most believe, the New Testament had not been penned down yet.

if your child talked back to you would you have him stoned?

hmmm, the command was "Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death."

the Hebrew word is 'Qãlal' which means to trifle in the ordinary sense but this word is used 82 times in the O.T and its various nuances grow out of the basic idea of being "trifling" to a higher meanings with somewhat negative connotations involved. In most cases the Curse means not only to dishonor but dishonor by wrath or abusiveness, carrying out vengeance or striking punishment. which I think carries the undertones of hitting your parents, abusing them, not just talking back. Do not actively rely on you English translation. Ancient Hebrew did not have many words and like most Semitic languages, the context and connotation of a word implies the intensity of the action involved.

The same usage is in The New Testament Paul says: "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree..." (Gla. 3:13). Now imagine and equate what we are talking here if by curse you simply means dishonoring than Christ's atonement saved us from nothing but verbal dishonor, which seems quite trivial compared to the fact that the curse of law is death which Christ himslef took for all of us. curse means more than just verbal dishonor, it means to that when the law curses it does so in God's wrath and certain death in some matters. Implication of curse is death, harm, abuse. Depends on the context of the situation. But I hope I have made the point clear enough.

The punishments such as in Leviticus 20:9. It should be obvious that some were specifically for the nation Israel, for a certain people at a certain time. (The only curse we all share in today is the one God gave in the Garden of Eden.) There are statements that related to Israel under the covenant that they had with God specifically in the Old Testament. The laws are eternal and pure but they are given to Jews. We do not follow those laws because we are under the covenant of Grace. That is the only difference. Those laws are specific to the Hebrew people but they are not less moral, do not confuse it with moral issues unless you know the extent of the meaning involved.

In Acts, Ananias and Sapphira died because of a lie. you could say should we kill someone because of a lie, no we shouldn't but once God did. So careful on the ground you tread on. How clear our sense of morality and punishment may be, it is all subjective to God's objectiveness. In honesty we can't really contest it theologically by implications such as you wrote above.

Plus, there is no gay genes. Although people will tell you they feel like being gay or they never had a choice. But the opposite of the that is - there is a gay genes, next you know a killer will rise up and say "hey, ever since i was 13 i wanted to slaughter people." Then should we conclude that people are born killers or rapers? I do not hate gays but this is just an excuse for people "He was born gay."

[neo-x]

Either way, it does not change the fact that homosexuality is not a choice and I really don't think that accusing gay people of willfully sinning by being gay is justifiable in any way, which is why I'm willing to give homosexuality the benefit of the doubt. It definately seems to me from a biological standpoint that they are "hardwired" to be gay, so it perplexes me that God would so fiercely condemn people for something that they have no control over and were apparently designed to be. I cannot see how people can naturally be a certain way, yet not be "natural" (whatever that means).

Everything in a sentient being begins with choice and preference. No one is "Hard Wired" because that would eliminate free will, but regardless of free will our brain does not calculate without some preference present, it needs an approx preference to reach an outcome. So tiny, small thoughts become the variables. For example, You can tun out gay not because you like men, but because you hate girls. Why you hate girls, not be birth, you must have some experience, a little episode of childhood, a simple snatching of toy to a teasing name game, the event it self is of no value but the reaction you generate from that event and how it registers in your mind is something that could affect the outcome (this happens mostly below the age of ten). This is just one scenario, there could be hundreds of others.

Serial killer Jeffery Dahmer used to rape, kill men, have sex with the dead bodies, would boil the meat, sometime eat it too and then stash the bones in the closet. Why, because at the age of three his dad showed him bones of a dead bird. Jeffery was fascinated by the sound which bones make when you strike them together. This was one of the reasons, a child hood fascination - that ultimately made him to collect bones after he killed people. A lot of dads take their sons to hunting trips, camping, show them bones, but out of many, Jeffery registered the impression in a different way.

Then some people just simply like same sex because it offers a different exp, most people start out because of excitement, affection whatever reason, but preference dictates choice. Like I said above, there is no gay genes, no body is born gay, people choose to be gay.

[RickD]

Althought I generally do not speak out pubically for or against homosexuality, I thought this was very interesting. Their is homosexuality in animals, now the reason this is so strange is

1) why would god create a Gay animal,

2) If animals like ape are gay, would this also serve as a link between us and apes,

3) Would homosexuality in animals seem to promote the idea that homosexuality is not a choice since animals do not have free will such as we do.

First of all, humans are the only physical beings that have the capacity to sin. When a man kills a man in cold blood, in God's eyes, it's murder. When a lion kills a gazelle, it's simply killing for food. No sin involved. When a man committs an unnatural sexual act with another man, it's considered an abomination before God. When a male dog humps another male dog, it's not homosexuality. The definition of homosexuality excludes animals. Only humans can engage in homosexual behavior. So to answer your 3 questions:

1)God didn't create gay animals(look up homosexuality's definition)

2)see answer to #1

3)see answer to #1

Your flawed assumption that animals can be homosexual, leads you to all kinds of false assumptions.

[RickD]

And again, back to my origonal question, If god hates gays so much, why did he program animals to be homsexual, I mean animals have no free because they do not have souls, so thus they do not have a choice.

Murray, I mean no offense to you personally when I say what you posted here is full of errors. Where did you get the position that God hates gays? From the westboro baptist church? The God of the bible certainly doesn't hate gays. God sacrificed his only begotten son so that WHOSOEVER believes on Him shall have eternal life. That means anyone who believes on the finished work of Christ.

You are saying that God programmed animals to be homosexual. Homosexuality is only a human condition.
Animals don't have free will because they have no will, and aren't created in the image of God like humans are. Souls and spirits are 2 different things. I believe God gave some animals souls, but not eternal spirits like humans have.

I challenge you to learn more about the God of the bible. Whatever god you have been referring to, certainly isn't the same God who will save anyone that comes to Him through Christ.

[Murray]

^



Sadly you missed our little conversation about this, and I was arguing against god hates gays. I stated god wrote Leviticus for the Israelites to live by until the messiah came , right, then he said when god said to stone gays in Leviticus, even though Leviticus is invalid, he states god does not change his position on human behavior or choices at all what so ever no exceptions,

So yes according to his logic god hates gays and wants them to be stoned to death still even though Leviticus is invalid and was created for an entirely different reason,

[Seraph]

Everything in a sentient being begins with choice and preference. No one is "Hard Wired" because that would eliminate free will, but regardless of free will our brain does not calculate without some preference present, it needs an approx preference to reach an outcome. So tiny, small thoughts become the variables. For example, You can tun out gay not because you like men, but because you hate girls. Why you hate girls, not be birth, you must have some experience, a little episode of childhood, a simple snatching of toy to a teasing name game, the event it self is of no value but the reaction you generate from that event and how it registers in your mind is something that could affect the outcome (this happens mostly below the age of ten). This is just one scenario, there could be hundreds of others.

Serial killer Jeffery Dahmer used to rape, kill men, have sex with the dead bodies, would boil the meat, sometime eat it too and then stash the bones in the closet. Why, because at the age of three his dad showed him bones of a dead bird. Jeffery was fascinated by the sound which bones make when you strike them together. This was one of the reasons, a child hood fascination - that ultimately made him to collect bones after he killed people. A lot of dads take their sons to hunting trips, camping, show them bones, but out of many, Jeffery registered the impression in a different way.

Then some people just simply like same sex because it offers a different exp, most people start out because of excitement, affection whatever reason, but preference dictates choice. Like I said above, there is no gay genes, no body is born gay, people choose to be gay.

I didn't say it was necessarily genetic (even though there is a strong probabilility that it is), it's just not a choice. If it was nurture rather than nature it wouldn't make a difference. Even in the cases of it being traced back to some memory as a kid, they didn't have control over it. There have been countless cases of teens who kill themselves because they find themselves attracted to the same sex yet they don't want to be. I've seen in person a case where someone threatened to do so. That does not sound like a choice to me, nor does it sound like they are simply interested in experiencing new things.

Funny you should mention how our brains being hardwired would mean there is no free will. That's something else I've been inquiring about.
Most neuologists who study the brain would probably tell you that most if not all of our characteristics most certainly are hard wired into our brains in one way or another.

[Silvertusk]

This is how I see it:

-God created us

Yes

-God had extremly high standards of us, similar to that of his angels

Yes - but he knows we will never meet them.

-God gave us free will, which we do abuse, This made god extremly upset for thousands of years until he came to terms that as long as Humans have free will, They will sin and anger me.

No. God already knew we would fall before creation. The plan for our salvation was set in stone before we were even created. He did not come to terms with anything. With free will beings - you have bad choices. God wants a relationship with freewill beings - hence the need for salvation. It is logically impossible to have freewill and not make the wrong choice.

You say that god is a constantly pissed off at us and always has been. God is jesus, So why did jesus not condem so many to death as he did in the old testament? Jesus came not only to die for our sins, but to set new law and moral codes to live our lives by. We do not live by leviticus law, hence we do not stone people to death like muslims.

God is not constantly pissed off with us. He loves us with a father's love. He loved us enough to send his son to die for us. You have to remember that the Leviticus law was written for Gods Holy people - Israel. They were part of Gods plan for salvation and they were moving into a territory surrounded by pagan civilisations that were barbaric and evil. They needed to follow a higher moral code as they were the light of God - a light to the Gentiles. The leviticus law does not apply to as because as Jesus said - what was written in the prophets is now fulfilled with him. We are now living under Grace.

And your answer on animal homosexuality is the best by far I have seen on the internet, very well put.

Agreed.

Silvertusk

[kmr]

Usually in the bible, the lusts of the flesh are frowned upon. By God, by Christ, by the apostles, all of them looked at the fleshy desires that men and women have and said that such passionate attractions were not the point. The point is the bond... the family unit, the symbolical relationship of Christ and the Church. The point is the relationship, not the desire.

It doesn't matter if you lust for men, women, dogs, cats, or trees, the lust itself is not considered holy by God, but the marriage between a man and a woman is, and that is the outlet for that lust. If someone is homosexual, they can lust for others of their own sex all they want, but it is as much a sin as the same lust outside of marriage in heterosexuals.

Real love isn't a sexual attraction, it is something deeper. Even animals have that primitive sexual attraction. But we aren't supposed to exercise our desires of sexual attraction, we are supposed to form the bond -- marriage -- that is held as holy. Everybody is genetically born with sexual desires. Some people are born more susceptible to those desires, and going to the extremes of those desires. But it doesn't matter whether someone says they are gay or straight, because the sexual desires are nothing of importance, the actions are a sin regardless. Marriage, however, is not a sin, but is holy.

[Seraph]

Sure, all forms of lust are sin but that doesn't address the issue of homosexuality. What if the connection between two homosexuals is genuine love and a desire for marriage? This is the case with many gay couples so I don't think one can say that all homosexual relationships are based on lust and not real love.

I would be interested to see where in the Bible marriage is clearly defined as only being between one man and one woman as is often referred to yet never directly cited.

[kmr]

Genesis 2:23-24, Proverbs 18:22, Proverbs 19:14, Matthew 19:4-6, 1 Corinthians 7:2-5, Ephesians 5:22-23, Hebrews 13:4-7.

God made them male and female, they become one flesh. Not male and male, not female and female. Notice 1 Corinthians 7:2: But because sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with HIS OWN wife, and each woman with HER OWN husband.


What would be a motivation for a gay couple to get married, other than feeling attraction for one another?

[Murray]

what would be a motivation for a gay couple to get married, other than feeling attraction for one another?

love perhaps?

[kmr]

But you can love your father, and you don't marry him, do you? You can love your aunt, and you don't marry her? I suppose I am asking, what is the purpose of marriage?

[Seraph]

love perhaps?

[kmr]

What if you love your dog? Your pet monkey? Your neighbor's wife? Your niece? If the purpose of marriage is just for love, then can't you marry just about anybody or anything that reciprocates the feeling? More importantly, what exactly is love, and is it really the only reason that marriage exists? Biblical references, perhaps?