Atheist Student

[jlay]

I remember some of his false logic in some simple questions :
1. If God can create anything, can He create something He CAN'T lift? (If He can't create it, or can't lift it, then He is not able to create/do everything, then He is not almighty)
2. If God can create anything, can He create another GOD? (same logic as above).
He insisted on CAN/CAN'T. And he won't accept the answer "is not the matter of can/can't but why He should do something like that, is useless." And he won't accept the answer "your logic is false".

Ah hah, this answers a lot of questions. This demonstrates that he really is just regurgitating objections that have already been asked and answered. These are not 'his' objections. He is just adopting objections by the anti-theist web-sites he is polluting his mind with.

Can God create something He can't lift?
No. The skeptic says, "then God can't do everything." Well, a THING, is a possibility. The Bible says, All THINGS are POSSIBLE with God. AnyTHING that can be created, can not have an infinite weight. It will have a finite mass. To state otherwise is a logical absurdity.
It is absolutely absurd to try and deny the existence of God, by trying to test muscles with a THING that is not even a THING. It's juvenile. God is not limited by the foolish thoughts of man.

Can God create another God? No. Does this limit Him? No. If God is eternal, trasncendent, and immaterial, then how can He recreate Himself? Another logical absurdity. For something to be created means it has a beginning. Judeo/Christianity is consistent in that God transcends time, and is without a beginning.

Just like the squared circle argument. God can not create a square circle because a square circle is not a THING. It is logically absurd.

Let me just warn you, IMO, that this kid's problems are not whether he has been given satisfactory answers to these objections.

[FearlessLlearsy]

Man... It is so sad to see a kid so far off the path. However, God placed us here, in this forum for a reason. I know it is the forum's rules, but may i suggest that there be a seperate post just for him? Any other posts he puts on in other trends/categories would be deleted, but he could ask his questions in his section. What scares me the most is that the knowledge he exhibits is not his own. It is the distorted fallacious knowledge of several atheist websites. So, even if we answer his questions, he will always come up with another one..... RIGHT??

[lanthean]

I know it is the forum's rules, but may i suggest that there be a seperate post just for him? Any other posts he puts on in other trends/categories would be deleted, but he could ask his questions in his section. What scares me the most is that the knowledge he exhibits is not his own. It is the distorted fallacious knowledge of several atheist websites. So, even if we answer his questions, he will always come up with another one..... RIGHT??

I agree, can he enter this forum and post all of his questions?
Like jlay said :

Ah hah, this answers a lot of questions. This demonstrates that he really is just regurgitating objections that have already been asked and answered. These are not 'his' objections. He is just adopting objections by the anti-theist web-sites he is polluting his mind with.

At least, we can try to fix his logic first.
I know the rules of this forum, but he is only 13. Few days ago I just asked him something, if christian people are in one side, and atheist (Richard Dawkins in this case, because this student said Richard Dawkins was awarded the most intelligent man in this world for 8 times-- is there any award like that?-- and he "understand" his logic) are in one side, where were you? He honestly said he is still in the middle. I still think there is still hope and chance he will choose God and re-think his logic if he got proper help as long as he hasn't "choose" his side.

So, can he ask things here?

[Silvertusk]

I concur - it would be nice for him to ask questions here in a controlled environment - because through God's grace and the Holy Spirit this might be a soul that can be saved.

[FearlessLlearsy]

thumbs up in the air for me

[lanthean]

Ok. I am done with this student (almost)
But here is the last email with him.
I admit that I am not smart enough (simply put : stupid), I put a lot of mistakes in my logic and trying to explain God (even I know that I am not in any capability of doing that), I made a lot of mistakes in my grammar and typing (FYI, english is not my first language).
Since I got the permission from the Board, I am asking him to sign-up in this forum. I got too emotional with this kid. He is attacking my profession and I am getting too angry and hurt. (He said: I can't fathom how you can even become a CB-Character Building hence counseling- teacher). This is too much for me, right now I am constantly asking myself whether I have become at least a better CB teacher every single day, you can say I am in the middle of self-confidence-crisis. How can I, as limited human being can try to change/counsel/give advice/influence/touch my students to a better person in my daily living, in the way I speak, think, react, respond, teach, and listen. And here he comes, just like that, said "How can I even become one". This is like pouring salt in the open wound. Hurts more than the actual stabbing.
Anyway, I am babbling. So, sorry if my email is just making things worse.
Note : blue color lines are my words to him.

Back to all of your argument about God.You have to understand the basic logic of your questions.

Nope. You need to understand the logic of your answers. Please view the paragraph answer.

[align=]First of all, when you asked me about "can God created something He can't lift" there is something wrong about that question. Answer yes/no to that question in the end the conclusion is that God is not able to do everything and that is just the answer you want from the beginning. there are no other option if you frase the question like that.
If yes, God can create something He can't lift, it means He is unable to do everything because He can't lift something.
But if no, God can't create something like that, still means He is unable to do everythong because He can't create something.
So, what is the good of asking a question if both the answer is the same? since other option beside yes/no is not accepted by you.
God can not create a square circle because a square circle is not a THING. It is logically absurd. so is it God's fault or is it because He can't do everything. oh yes, He can simply call something a square circle, who name circle and square in the first place (it's human) and in doing so it is just making things inconsistent with other things. [/align]

First things first, I very much need to point out that your statement is absolutely ridiculous. My question is basically unanswerable, thus why I gave you the question. Next, your "here is the false logic ;" statement, you are the one with false logic, and you are not providing an answer at all. You asked me a question; Can God create a square circle? Of course he can. He can do illogical things not because they are illogical, but because you are the finite human. You and I can create square circle. Here: square circle. Done. Absurd? Absolutely not. It is a square circle, but it is you who are viewing in the different and limited perspective. That's what omnipotent means, Ms. Linda. Please use the correct definition for God. My question is a lot deeper than that. Please state a viable counter-argument next time. Thank you!

[align=]Second, about how God is so cruel, not caring about all human suffering and evil thing in this world.
Here is a thing about logic too.[/align]

Ooohhh. There is, by the way, a website where you can study false-logic policies and seemingly-false-but-actually-correct logic policies.

[align=]Simple thing : how do you know you are healthy if you dont know any illness, how do you know you are happy if you dont know any sorrow/sadness/disappointment, how do you know there is a good if there is no bad.how can you call a day and a night if there is no light and there is no darkness.and how can you differentiate heaven from hell then if all of above things doesnt exist.
there are always opposite of things. the point is, this opposite concept is not created by anybody including God.
so from the beginning of the creation, did God create satan? did God create evil? No. He didn't create it, it just the opposite of what He created.
Can He get rid of that? i think that question has false logic too. it is the same like can we get rid of dark? yes we can by providing light. but the darkness itself is not gone forever, it just "tidak kelihatan" because there is light. when the light is gone, the darkness is back. so the darkness itself doesnt gone, but just hidden. [/align]

I believe that at this point you are replying in a religious vigor, resulting in incorrect grammar, spelling, and basically the sentences itself.
Can we get rid of the dark? Of course. But the darkness itself is not gone forever? Of course. Would you like to know why? Because making light needs energy. And here you are using the wrong logic. There is no such thing as darkness. There is only "deprivation of light". But of course, as simplification, we call the "lack of sufficient light" darkness. Energy is very complicated miss. Basically, billions of years for now, the universe's multiquadrillion stars will disperse energy so well an equilibrium will be gained. If "basically" sounds very hard to understand, please understand why "light" itself is also likewise. Also, complete "darkness" can never be achieved because atoms cannot and will not lose energy.

I understand your misunderstanding about these things. Again, you are the one with the false logic. You are using an incorrect analogy for an answer. And the correct term is "invisible".
Now, (At this point I would like to refer this as "You are not using your brain"), I understand why you are answering like this, but please take no offense. I only ask that you fix your terms and your logic as much as possible.
Your answer: Darkness isn't gone, it can only be hidden. It is unexplicably silly, and frankly we need a mutual understanding me in this one. How do you discern what is "dark" and what is "light"? How many lumens (units for light intensity and energy) is needed for making darkness and light? How about twilight? This question is rethorical because the only answer is :No, with different scenarios. It is like elements. There is 119 elements, but millions, possibly billions of compounds.

[align=]For the question about why not He save innocent child/people from holocaust or natural disaster, and so many other things.
here is the basic understanding again. human got free will. and the logic is there is no middle way of it.
when Hitler chose to torture and kill so many people. Can God prevent him from doing so or save the people he wanted to kill? Yes. But where is the free will again? if God prevent Him, then it is not hitler's choice anymore. if God save the people, who will get killed by hitler therefore he is not able to do his will. where is the free will again.
killing, torture, bombing, HIV spread are just result of human free will. and by saying free will, there are good choices and bad choices. getting rid or preventing those to happen means interrupting free will.
Which do you prefer, your mom love you because she choose to love you or because she is force to love you (since you are her child, she is feeling obligated to love you).[/align]

Obligated? Obligated? To love? I cannot fathom your mind's misunderstandings and self-contradictions
This is quite outrageous, really. In the paragraph above, you said we have what you refer as "free will". Religiously (viewed from Christian perspective), you are wrong, not I. Why? Because no one is obligated to do anything. Please, please, please, I inquire you; create a correct counter- argument. You are contradicting yourself. By the way, there is a condition for women after giving worth which makes her dread her child/ren; a unique shock. It makes mothers hate her children, no matter whether she wants it or not. It is not a choice. Answer that.


[align=]and by the way, there are 6 billions people in this world, do you know exactly there is NO human saved from all those horror? there are many people said "it is a miracle i can survive", i believe that means he/she is saved from those horror miraculously.
do you know exactly that there is no african child being miraculously saved and fed either by miracle something popped out from nowhere or either by somebody come to save some of them and bring them to other country to get a better life.[/align]

SURPRISE SURPRISE! THERE ARE WORLD WIDE ORGANIZATIONS THAT "DONATES" AND GIVES FOOD TO SOME OF THEM! WHAT DID YOU JUST SAY? POP OUT OF NOWHERE? Please think clearly.

[align=]but saving ALL people from suffering indicates no miracle (since that means nothing bad ever happen) and there is no free will.
if earthquakes doesnt cause any damage or casualties, do you think earthquake is bad? i dont think so.[/align]

Hey. you are starting to become sillier. You're going with ifs and what ifs. I am going with facts and reality. "Nothing bad ever happen" IS A MIRACLE! What's wrong with your brain? People will see "Given the capabilities of human error, stupidity, nature's disasters and astronomic chaos, it's one hell of a miracle, hell yeah!" No human is saved from these horrors? "and by the way, there are 6 billions people in this world, do you know exactly there is NO human saved from all those horror?" for intellect's sakes please think CLEARLY! THERE ARE SEVEN BILLION PEOPLE IN THIS WORLD AND NO ACTUAL SURVEY TO EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON EARTH. In an argument, we do not lie, make up "facts", or act like a smartypants! You say there is no free will if nothing bad ever happens? By the Trinity's sakes, think CLEARLY! You are bamboozling, for lack of saying worse terms. There is no free will in the first place! What if I want to kill the entire human race? I can't. If I try to, that means I'm "free!" to go to jail.

[align=]yes, i agree that it seems cruel to let so many people suffer. but you have to realize that living in this world is just temporary. our human lives is just like a blink of an eye compare to eternity. and we know from history that human is not getting better. we learn, we heard, we read, there are so many killings and war happened in the past and cause so many sufferings, then people now should realize and choose not to do the killing and war anymore. but what can we see now? still war and killing everywhere.
some people get better, some people get worse. it is just the result of the free will.
God doesnt interfere in all of the things human does in this world. He let the world run the way it is. and the sad part is, the bad things, most of them, come from human itself.[/align]

Temporary? I see. Well, go to scorching Africa and stay there without money and scrounge for food for the rest of your life. Let's see how "temporary" that life is. You are selfish and not thinking about how "temporary" life can become. One second in hell is temporary, sure. What if a guy gets sent to hell for a second? He'll come back as an insane, babbling psychomaniac. Unbelievable. Simply unbelieveable. I can't fathom how you can even become a CB teacher, considering how insensitive you are.

[align=]still, even there are a lot of bad part in this world, there are also many good and beautiful things.
can you honestly not think how rainbow is beautiful (even it can be explained by science). or can you not amazed how the gravity can hold everything in place but in the same time birds can fly and the sea water doesnt spilled out of the world. how the world can rotate.
come on, lighten up a little bit. take a rest thinking about hard things like God is cruel, why this and that happens. enjoy the beauty of some things. [/align]

The world is beautiful. But consider the words I am quoting from a Cambridge professor; "... the world is a beautiful and fantastic place, but however so it was it does not help food get to your table.
Africa is incredibly beautiful, hell yeah. But do you think that helps its inhabitants get food to the table, aside from tourism? Look at its current state. Africa is like a prostitute selling herself for money. Do you think I am exaggerating? The amount of drugs, murder, lawlessness, diseases, insect plagues, famines, deaths, disasters, and whoring is astounding. I will NOT take a rest from thinking things like God is cruel. You are basically telling me to give up this argument because I need rest.
t
God's sakes. I will not comply.

[align=]even something that you consider bad, can be good. sometimes, it it just the way you see it.
when you see lion kills another animal, does it bad? according to the nature law, it doesnt. but still in my own eye, i can see it is bad or sad or cruel. but the things that happen is required to balance things. and somebody can argue back to me, animal doesnt have conscious or akal budi, so it is ok for them to kill or being killed.
i want all animal to be vegetarian. is it stupid? yes.imagine the population of animal multiply like crazy if there is no eating-being eaten happens.
maybe same thing apply to human. can we compare animal and human like this? if it is just the way of thinking, i can say we can. if no human getting killed either by natural disaster or killing by other human, imagine the population in this world. so damn crowded.
vegetarian animal and no people died of killing.
about torturing, i think i heard something about a type of animal hold captive of their prey for several days alive until they eat them. that sounds cruel to me.so i think basically we and animal are the same. so i can say, why cant we human being treated differently then animal.[/align]

Because your Religion and many others consider humans superior than animals. Please read the Bible.

I'm getting more and more exasperated by your replies, scientifically, religiously, logically, and intellectually. Your religion considers animals are soul-less beings that has no major importance whatsoever. Your religion considers humans as the highest form of Earthly being. Animals and humans are the same because using the scientific term of animal, humans are animals (look it up; scientific definition for animals). Structurally many humans are better than us, but our brains are the ones that makes the difference.

Please, think again.

[align=]the bible. reading the bible is tricky. the same like how you see the world and how you see the God.
When you see the world and God is bad or cruel, then it is how you will see the bible no matter what verse you read.
you can use the bible as weapon to attack the religion or god. it just a matter of choice.[/align]

A matter of choice? How fantastic! By the way, you are not answering my questions AT ALL. Please do so next time!
Can't really answer it, can you? Please reply.

See, I made a lot if mistakes.

[kmr]

Your arguments actually were legitimate for the most part, and I think you did a very good job confronting this stubborn student. But unfortunately the student was very tricky with words, and knew how to weave right through your text. I agree, there isn't much you can do with this student, no matter how good your arguments are, he/she will just refute them and resort to that tricky wordplay. They should become a politician.

Just continue to pray for him/her, and stand strong in your faith! Perhaps one day he/she will seek the truth.

[neo-x]

@lanthean

I would have gone aggressive and try to shake the foundations of atheism rather then trying to prove the morality of God. Seriously, you did all you could. He may be a bright kid but God's word is above all human wisdom. I can just hope he meets God like Paul met Jesus on that road on a sunny day some 2000 yrs ago.

[kmr]

Yeah, there's always that...

Let's just pray that he'll find his way some way or another!

[neo-x]

Let's just pray that he'll find his way some way or another!

[lanthean]

Thanks for the support, I am feeling better knowing that I am not that stupid

I have asked him to join with the forum. I will tell you all what is his username when he sign-up.

Anyway, although I said I give up, I still replied his email (it seems like I am not willing to give up yet).
Hopefully this is better than my last email :

Note : Blue is words in the last email.

Since obviously my emails are not anywhere near your expectations (even from the grammar only), please sign-up to this site

http://discussions.godandscience.org/

After you sign-up, please tell me your username so I know which one is you.
This is a discussion forum. Please read the rules and follow them, OK?
I don't want you to get kicked-out from the forum just because you are using bad words or attacking and putting offensive things. Be civilized. Since you think I can't argue in the correct manner, then I hope you can show the good manner in that forum.

Speaking about attacking and putting offensive things, please don't do this:

" can't fathom how you can even become a CB teacher, considering how insensitive you are."
or
"By the Trinity's sakes, think CLEARLY! You are bamboozling, for lack of saying worse terms."
or
"I'm getting more and more exasperated by your replies, scientifically, religiously, logically, and intellectually"

please don't attack somebody's profession. Don't use capital words like that, it looks rude. And don't attack somebody's intellectual, logic, and religious beliefs. You know that they are all religious people, if you only going to say "religion is stupid", then there is no point signing-up to the forum and state the thing they heard everyday.
You are signing-up because you want arguments, not to attack and labeling people as stupid.

Tell me if you are willing or not willing to sign-up.


Next one,

Obligated? Obligated? To love? I cannot fathom your mind's misunderstandings and self-contradictions
This is quite outrageous, really. In the paragraph above, you said we have what you refer as "free will". Religiously (viewed from Christian perspective), you are wrong, not I. Why? Because no one is obligated to do anything. Please, please, please, I inquire you; create a correct counter- argument. You are contradicting yourself. By the way, there is a condition for women after giving worth which makes her dread her child/ren; a unique shock. It makes mothers hate her children, no matter whether she wants it or not. It is not a choice. Answer that.
So hate in here is not a choice? Btw, you said type slowly, what is the meaning of this sentence "By the way, there is a condition for women after giving worth which makes her dread her child/ren" anyway?
Obligated is situation where a person should/must do something. Can we choose not to do it? yes (and live with the consequence). Can we choose to do it but still in our heart/mind not agree with it? Yes. Can we choose to do it with acceptance/understanding? Yes.
Can a mom obligated to love her child? Yes. But can she still taking excellent care of her child with hate in her mind/heart? yes. Can she choose to take care her children with excellent care and pure love? Yes. A matter of choice.
So, there are lot of things we are oblige to do, but from Christian point of view, nothing can control our mind/heart while we are doing the obligations (God can change our hear/mind, but He doesn't want to do that).



and by the way, there are 6 billions people in this world, do you know exactly there is NO human saved from all those horror? there are many people said "it is a miracle i can survive", i believe that means he/she is saved from those horror miraculously.
do you know exactly that there is no african child being miraculously saved and fed either by miracle something popped out from nowhere or either by somebody come to save some of them and bring them to other country to get a better life.
SURPRISE SURPRISE! THERE ARE WORLD WIDE ORGANIZATIONS THAT "DONATES" AND GIVES FOOD TO SOME OF THEM! WHAT DID YOU JUST SAY? POP OUT OF NOWHERE? Please think clearly.
Please read carefully. I said "do you know exactly that there is no african child being miraculously saved and fed either by miracle something popped out from nowhere or either by somebody come to save some of them and bring them to other country to get a better life"
What I am trying to ask is : "If you say miracle is something popped out from nowhere, then do you think world wide organizations trying to save them is not consider a miracle for them?"
Since many people try to save them then it is not a miracle? But if something popped out from nowhere it is a miracle? I think in that african child mind, being saved no matter how, it is miracle for them.
If (yeah again with the if) there is something popped out from nowhere it is sure a miracle. But if it doesn't happen, for them, what is important is how from hundreds/thousands people suffering they are the one got chosen to be saved by the world wide organizations (you can call it luck or coincidence. Calling it luck/coincidence/miracle is just how people choose what word to use).



Me : but saving ALL people from suffering indicates no miracle (since that means nothing bad ever happen) and there is no free will.
if earthquakes doesnt cause any damage or casualties, do you think earthquake is bad? i dont think so.
Hey. you are starting to become sillier.

Again with the attacking. Sillier? So what are you trying to say, you are much much smarter than me? If you think I am stupid, don't talk to me and don't argue with me since I can't keep-up with your intelligence. How offensive to talk like this.



You're going with ifs and what ifs. I am going with facts and reality. "Nothing bad ever happen" IS A MIRACLE! What's wrong with your brain? People will see "Given the capabilities of human error, stupidity, nature's disasters and astronomic chaos, it's one hell of a miracle, hell yeah!" No human is saved from these horrors? "and by the way, there are 6 billions people in this world, do you know exactly there is NO human saved from all those horror?" for intellect's sakes please think CLEARLY! THERE ARE SEVEN BILLION PEOPLE IN THIS WORLD AND NO ACTUAL SURVEY TO EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON EARTH. In an argument, we do not lie, make up "facts", or act like a smartypants! You say there is no free will if nothing bad ever happens? By the Trinity's sakes, think CLEARLY! You are bamboozling, for lack of saying worse terms. There is no free will in the first place! What if I want to kill the entire human race? I can't. If I try to, that means I'm "free!" to go to jail.
What is the matter in here? I don't see the reason why you typed in so many capital words (since I am so silly).
I said, " and by the way, there are 6 billions people in this world, do you know exactly there is NO human saved from all those horror?"
Did my sentence can be considered this way : yea, since there are NO ACTUAL SURVEY TO EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON EARTH then we are not able to know exactly if a miracle happen anywhere in this world. And vice versa, we are not able to know exactly if there is NO miracle happen anywhere in this world.
Not you or me, or anybody in this world can say one thing doesn't happen or does happen anywhere, anytime in this world.
About free to go to jail. Going to jail is just the consequence you can't handle if you kill human being. If you can take the consequence, sure you can kill human. Is killing wrong? yes. But can you do it? Yes. So where is no free will in the first place you try to make me understand? Back to the obligations at the beginning of this email.



yes, i agree that it seems cruel to let so many people suffer. but you have to realize that living in this world is just temporary. our human lives is just like a blink of an eye compare to eternity. and we know from history that human is not getting better. we learn, we heard, we read, there are so many killings and war happened in the past and cause so many sufferings, then people now should realize and choose not to do the killing and war anymore. but what can we see now? still war and killing everywhere.
some people get better, some people get worse. it is just the result of the free will.
God doesnt interfere in all of the things human does in this world. He let the world run the way it is. and the sad part is, the bad things, most of them, come from human itself.
Temporary? I see. Well, go to scorching Africa and stay there without money and scrounge for food for the rest of your life. Let's see how "temporary" that life is. You are selfish and not thinking about how "temporary" life can become. One second in hell is temporary, sure. What if a guy gets sent to hell for a second? He'll come back as an insane, babbling psychomaniac. Unbelievable. Simply unbelieveable. I can't fathom how you can even become a CB teacher, considering how insensitive you are.
Again with the attacking. Who is not civilized here anyway. Did I ever say anything about you being silly, insensitive, or anything so offensive.
BTW, I said temporary or "blink of an eye" is a fact you know. No matter how long the person suffering feels (feels like eternity), still the fact that person live around what 70/80/90/100 years. 100 years compare to the age of this earth? Like a blink of an eye.
How long did the longest war in this wold happen? 200/300/400 years? Compare to the age of the earth, like a blink of an eye. See the big picture. No matter how long, how cruel, a person suffers, still that person is just like a piece of salt in the middle of the ocean. Insensitive? Yes, but that is the fact.
So, this is fact. Why do you get so upset and calling me insensitive. No need to attack. You can attack someone stating a fact right.
Now, who is not thinking rationally and thinking emotionally now.
So our life, no matter how important, precious, is nothing actually. That is exactly why for Christian believers, living and what is happening in this world is not the main thing. Yes, while we are living in this world we should give our best, love others, do the best for others and so on, and so on, but that is not the big picture. Christians do all those things as the respond to God's love for them. They don't do good things to get God's love or to impress God. They do not do it because of the obligations/Bible told them to. But they do it because they feel grateful for what God has done for them (things that you still don't get it until now).
For Christians, what is important is the afterlife, the eternity. That is the big picture. If you are reading the Bible, in one verse in New Testament, he said, suffering and living in this world is just temporary, it doesn't worth comparing to the glory.

I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory about to be revealed to us. (Romans 8:18)

So we do not lose heart. Even though our outer nature is wasting away, our inner nature is being renewed day by day. For this slight momentary affliction is preparing us for an eternal weight of glory beyond all measure, because we look not at what can be seen but at what cannot be seen; for what can be seen is temporary, but what cannot be seen is eternal. (2 Corinthians 4:16-18)

Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth, for you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life is revealed, then you also will be revealed with him in glory. (Colossians 3:2-4)

There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. We love because he first loved us. (1 John 4:18-19)

We are suffering not because of Him. But because of our own, human all over the world, bad choices. And He always loves us no matter what, that's why the easy way out is only to love Him back. He knows we are not able not to do sin, it is impossible for us to be good/ pure like God. It is not what He ask from us. What is the condition of salvation? To humble ourselves that we need saving, admitting He is the one who can save us and to love Him back.
Yes, there are a lot of nice, kind, loving human being that caught in the middle of this black, cruel, horror world. That kind of people need saving. How can they be saved? Easy, love Him back. Why then He is not saving the people who love Him from the horror from this world? Back again, that is not the big picture. The saving He meant is the saving for eternity, not just couple of years in this world.



The world is beautiful. But consider the words I am quoting from a Cambridge professor; "... the world is a beautiful and fantastic place, but however so it was it does not help food get to your table.
Africa is incredibly beautiful, hell yeah. But do you think that helps its inhabitants get food to the table, aside from tourism? Look at its current state. Africa is like a prostitute selling herself for money. Do you think I am exaggerating? The amount of drugs, murder, lawlessness, diseases, insect plagues, famines, deaths, disasters, and whoring is astounding. I will NOT take a rest from thinking things like God is cruel. You are basically telling me to give up this argument because I need rest.
t
God's sakes. I will not comply.

This answers everything. I mean, the whole big-long-wide arguments to so many people you did, you already set up your mind that you will not rest from thinking God is cruel. So what is the point of your argument? Trying to make others think that God is cruel too?
If that is the case, then there are no ending to these arguments no matter who you are talking to, except the one that agrees with you.
Just the same like I have set my mind to not think God is cruel, the point of my argument to you is trying to make you think that God is not cruel. So, there is no ending of this arguments. It is endless because each side won't budge.
The question now, since you know that is endless, are you still want to continue?



I'm getting more and more exasperated by your replies, scientifically, religiously, logically, and intellectually. Your religion considers animals are soul-less beings that has no major importance whatsoever. Your religion considers humans as the highest form of Earthly being. Animals and humans are the same because using the scientific term of animal, humans are animals (look it up; scientific definition for animals). Structurally many humans are better than us, but our brains are the ones that makes the difference.
Please, think again.
I take the example of animal not that contradicts my belief or Bible. It is not because I am silly. But I just want to make a point here.
Killing and torture will never consider good if it is done to human being. Is that right? Maybe so. But think it this way, if killing never occurs, how full this world can be. (Yea, not a nice way to reduce population, but hey, human is stupid). Torture can happen back again to the choice of the people who done it. One people can decide to end others life by shooting them right in the head, no prolong pain. But one can decide to prolong the pain by doing the torture. Who to blame? OK, to your point of view, blame it to God again. *sigh*. So human are not responsible for anything, right. They are just given the choice of doing evil because God created/not get rid of evil. *sigh*.



the bible. reading the bible is tricky. the same like how you see the world and how you see the God.
When you see the world and God is bad or cruel, then it is how you will see the bible no matter what verse you read.
you can use the bible as weapon to attack the religion or god. it just a matter of choice.
A matter of choice? How fantastic! By the way, you are not answering my questions AT ALL. Please do so next time!
Can't really answer it, can you? Please reply.
What is exactly your questions? Or whether it is more precise when I ask, what do you want me to answer you? To say and to confirm that God is cruel? Not going to happen.
BTW, why it is so fantastic if I said reading the Bible is just a matter of perspective?
You can read bible verses I quoted in a very bad way. I read it in a very good way. It's a matter of perspective.



***Miss Linda, next time, please use correct grammar, spelling and capital words; please type slowly. Do not be too vigorous in the reply, and please use civilities. I did the last time I mailed you. Note that you wrote the word damn in this mail. Great improvement for the application of bad words! Last time, did I use a bad word? Maybe I should!***
I'm feeling rather happy now. Next time, please add more bad words!
Thank you very much! Come again!
Please reply. Thank you very much!
About my grammar, spelling and capital words, this is somehow offensive. You know right from the day you know me that my grammar is not excellent, why this become a problem now. About spelling, there are no red words according to the spell checker ( so once again, I don't have good enough English to know this so I don'y know why you are making this a problem). Limited vocabulary? once again, you know me. Capital words , OK this one is my fault. Too lazy to differentiate.
Bad words? Damn? OK, my bad. People made mistakes. :p
(in my defense, damn is not as rude as "[love]" or "son of the *****")
Won't happen again. Did I write bad words in this email. Hopefully not.


Back again to basic thing.
If you still think God is cruel, God is the source and to be blamed of all bad things in this world (either He created them or He isn't doing anything about it), then it is useless and pointless to state anything wonderful Christian's see. Once again, it is just a matter or perspective. You take it or not take it. You can see it or can't see it.

Blame it all to Him. Said that He is unjust, cruel, insensitive, uncaring, whatever you want. Said that religious people are stupid.
Now the question is, what is good to say that thing? What good can be taken out from it?
I don't deny that many atheists are good people, yes, a lot of them even better than religious people. But, what then? If the atheist is the one that doesn't believe God exist then what next, living in the world is just as meaningless as a piece of salt in the middle of ocean.
If the atheist is the one who know God exist but despise Him, then what next? because they hate Him so much they rather choose to hate Him to eternity and choose to burn in hell so not being in the same place as He is (the Heaven). Or the atheist is so proud of himself, thinks that he doesn't need saving?
You have to understand this, bad religious people is not the result/effect of being religious, or they become bad after they become religious. Even so, back again it is because of their false understanding of things.
Same thing can apply to atheist. They become good not because they have no religion. They become bad not because they got no religion. It is just a a matter of choice.
Have religion or not, believe in God or not, believe He is a savior or not, is not the only factor that determines whether a person is good or bad. So don't blame it to the God or to the religion. It is choice of human being.

When people live in this world they suffer from a kind of starvation/hunger. Call it whatever you want, hunger to fill the hollow and the meaning of their existence. When people in hunger they can do anything. Same like physical hunger.
Some people can starve to death rather than doing something bad as stealing or robbing. Some people choose to kill/rob/steal so they can still live. Some people beg. Some people pray for miracle to happen. Many many ways. Religion/atheist are just choices available to fill the hunger. If one doesn't succeed, try others. Choose, consider the result, and live with the consequences either it is good or bad.

[neo-x]

Atheists general tactic is elephant hurling, they just bombard you with so many questions at once that it all becomes tangled. Let him sign up and lets argument one by one.

[kmr]

You know what this argument sounds like?

:

(Me at the age of five)
ME: Mom! I hurt myself!
MOM: What's wrong?
ME: I cut myself. :'(
MOM: Aww, do you need help?
ME: NO! I'm fine!
MOM: You sure?
ME: Well, no.
MOM: Okay, I'll get you a band-aid. How did this happen?
ME: I tripped over some toys in my room.
MOM: I warned you not to let your room get too messy.
ME: It's your fault! You're supposed to clean my room, not me!
MOM: You need to learn how to clean it yourself.
ME: You could have just cleaned my room, like you should, and then I wouldn't have tripped. How can you love me if you don't clean my room for me and I get hurt?
MOM: At least you have a room that I gave you, and, well, if you want my help you can have it, but you must promise to put your toys away next time.
ME: Oh alright. I love you mom.
MOM: I love you too.


Unfortunately, we don't realize that we often behave like I might have back here, thinking that God is responsible for cleaning up all our problems. But the very reason he put us here is that so we can choose to clean them up ourselves, grow in our faith, and in the end it makes our bond all the better.

[neo-x]

very true indeed

[SnowDrops]

He's got a lot of misconceptions and outright wrong information.

1. His first point is on the problem of suffering. To be honest, this is one of the things that used to bother me a lot but also one of the first things I realized was totally necessary as I started reading more about the Christian faith. Suppose God -had- stopped the killings. Suppose He -had- forced the Pastors not to do that. They would not have had free will. Without free will, we lose the whole point of Creation in the first place!

Here's another thing to look at: If someone wants to critique God's character, for the time-being, they to assume God exists temporarily to do so. Once we assume He exists, we have more implications than just our ability to critique Him. We also have to realize that eternity awaits. This lifetime is going to be full of suffering because this lifetime is a training ground. I believe it was CS Lewis who used the imagery of a hotel vs a prison. This student treats this life like it is God's Royal Hotel. We should live in luxury, we should have our needs attended, we should never be at risk, we should never die! A Christian looks at it like a prison or perhaps boot camp (I like the boot camp analogy better). You get food? Thank God! You get to sleep? Thank God! And we have all of these wonderful technological toys, all these games, all these sources of entertainment! Praise God!

The difference in mindset is very much profound I think. He makes another point about Jesus living a very well-off life, but He didn't. He was routinely driven from towns and forced to live in the wilderness. He might want to, as a start, read the Gospels.

2. This seems like a lot of silliness on his part just to get to the point, which I still don't quite understand. God doesn't 'send people to hell for killing people'. People suffer death (separation from God) for rejecting God. People live with God (have eternal -life-) for accepting Salvation. Would God be proud of someone who killed someone else to save lives? Well, I suppose that depends. Certainly, God has used a lot of different methods to accomplish His will, from Joshua leading the Israelites to military victories in the Old Testament, to Christ in the New Testament winning the ultimate battle by dying. Elijah in the OT, instead of fighting the prophets of baal relied on God and won a victory by simply obeying. God isn't proud of us because of what we do! He loves us! He just does. He has, in all things, love, justice, mercy, wrath, fury, compassion, and all sorts of things we can barely begin to understand in this lifetime. I feel that his first question was a serious and important one, but his second one is simply an attempt to insult, and is very ignorant. He, knowing as little as he does about God, can't really suddenly assign God attributes and plans of action and then question why God would do things that way. It is a classic straw man scenario.

3. It is Pharaoh's fault to a large degree - he had plenty of times to listen before. We always have a choice: God sometimes allows us to make it without intervention, and sometimes pushes us along. Reminds me of Joseph and his brothers. Also, "God hardened Pharaoh's heart" can be looked at a few different ways I think. Overall, I don't see how this is an issue though: God accomplished His purpose of having the Israelites leave Egypt. Was Pharaoh condemned afterward? Not at all! We don't know much about his life afterward, but there's no reason that immediately following it, his heart couldn't have melted and things couldn't have been right with God and himself. If God punishing Pharaoh's pride is hard for him to understand, it might be good to note that the Israelites were in bondage and suffering in a very rough type of slavery. Seems like God's love for us and our ability to make decisions won the day here.

4. "Seek and ye shall find" comes to mind. Life expectancy is irrelevant. A heart open to God's calling can acknowledge Him at four years old... I've seen it happen. He seems to have an image of God very common in atheist circles: God is a big bad judge who hates us and looks for ways to hurt us. That isn't the case! Its true that there are tons of religious movements out there, but Christianity's view on God is totally unique! He is loving, compassionate, and full of mercy! He isn't just a Judge but a Just Judge. I'm not a Calvinist, but I feel as though people are predestined even as they have free will. It is something I've never understood completely, but I think I have my mind around enough now that I accept a bit easier. We love God because He first loved us. Without God's calling our name, we can't hear Him! The fact is though, God loves the whole world. There is a calling we can choose to hear. My problem with the approach he (the student) has is that complaining about how hard it is doesn't do anything. A better response would be to spend the time that we have (which is always enough to accomplish what God desires) to pursue the Truth! When we find it and not some other form of self-worship or skepticism, we get closer and closer. I honestly believe the God of Christianity to be the only truly appealing religious belief system out there, although that is largely tied to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit I would presume. Maybe its more though... God loves us! That is an amazing thing!

Welcome to the board! Hope my rants have something in them for you

That's a rant? Well then you must be one of the nicest people I've met on the Internet.