Hawking and the new Atheists (part of a bigger problem)...

[derrick09]

Here is a article that gives a good example of what I'm referring to (I hope to find more later)

http://www.aggressivechristianity.net/a ... commun.htm

[DannyM]

Thanks Danny, regardless it does seem to me that if atheists (or at least the group of atheists who want to bring about social change or who try to convince Christians to give up their faith) want to bring about something else other than to make Christians cry and lose their faith.

Of course the atheist does not care whether you remain a Christian or become an atheist. They just like to be heard in a world where they're simply meaningless. They want a seat at the top table, they want to discuss the ultimate questions with us, they want to dissuade us from believing in something purely because they don't believe in this something. This type of atheist is just odd. In the end I think they just feel left out since their worldview renders them utterly boring and meaningless.

For instance, if they were able to de convert most of the world's Christians in time, what would be their next step? If there is no next step, then why bother trying to win debates, de convert Christians and prove to humanity that their view is the correct and most reasonable view?

I've meditated on your idea regarding communism etc. I don't think you can pin down atheism according to the fundamentalist atheists to any one goal. I've looked into Dawkins and he (unsurprisingly?) believes in 'human-induced global warming,' and for a man who doesn't seem to have any idea of the limits of science I am hardy shocked at this.


Do all atheists believe in Global warming? We can find a trend, but then it would be just as easy for the atheist to find a trend with regards to theists being sceptical of global warming.

I'm happy, Derrick, to put it all down to pure ego. The atheist is trapped inside a straitjacket of a worldview, where all meaning and purpose disappear. They want to join us at the table of ultimate discussion, they just don't understand why this is. Or perhaps they are indeed very conscious of their ego overrulling their meaningless worldview.

[humblesmurph]

Thanks Danny, regardless it does seem to me that if atheists (or at least the group of atheists who want to bring about social change or who try to convince Christians to give up their faith) want to bring about something else other than to make Christians cry and lose their faith.

Of course the atheist does not care whether you remain a Christian or become an atheist. They just like to be heard in a world where they're simply meaningless. They want a seat at the top table, they want to discuss the ultimate questions with us, they want to dissuade us from believing in something purely because they don't believe in this something. This type of atheist is just odd. In the end I think they just feel left out since their worldview renders them utterly boring and meaningless.

For instance, if they were able to de convert most of the world's Christians in time, what would be their next step? If there is no next step, then why bother trying to win debates, de convert Christians and prove to humanity that their view is the correct and most reasonable view?

I've meditated on your idea regarding communism etc. I don't think you can pin down atheism according to the fundamentalist atheists to any one goal. I've looked into Dawkins and he (unsurprisingly?) believes in 'human-induced global warming,' and for a man who doesn't seem to have any idea of the limits of science I am hardy shocked at this.


Do all atheists believe in Global warming? We can find a trend, but then it would be just as easy for the atheist to find a trend with regards to theists being sceptical of global warming.

I'm happy, Derrick, to put it all down to pure ego. The atheist is trapped inside a straitjacket of a worldview, where all meaning and purpose disappear. They want to join us at the table of ultimate discussion, they just don't understand why this is. Or perhaps they are indeed very conscious of their ego overrulling their meaningless worldview.

Interesting. I can't speak for all atheists, but yes, I do believe that the world is getting warmer. Can I pin it down to a particular cause? No. Could it be us? Sure. What is discussed at this table you are referring to?

[DannyM]

[Interesting. I can't speak for all atheists, but yes, I do believe that the world is getting warmer. Can I pin it down to a particular cause? No. Could it be us? Sure. What is discussed at this table you are referring to?

I don't really see your point about global warming. Sure. Maybe. You never know for sure. I mean, hardly groundbreaking stuff you're coming out with there.

Ah the table. You are at the table, smurph. You discuss things of a metaphysical nature when you disbelieve. You have a meaningless worldview. Yet you cannot resist debating the topics which apparently mean nothing to you. I just find this rather odd. Maybe you have or seek purpose. Maybe you're not so stupid after all. I dunno.

[Echoside]

[Interesting. I can't speak for all atheists, but yes, I do believe that the world is getting warmer. Can I pin it down to a particular cause? No. Could it be us? Sure. What is discussed at this table you are referring to?

I don't really see your point about global warming. Sure. Maybe. You never know for sure. I mean, hardly groundbreaking stuff you're coming out with there.

Ah the table. You are at the table, smurph. You discuss things of a metaphysical nature when you disbelieve. You have a meaningless worldview. Yet you cannot resist debating the topics which apparently mean nothing to you. I just find this rather odd. Maybe you have or seek purpose. Maybe you're not so stupid after all. I dunno.

I understand what you are saying Danny, but is it not true that in an atheist worldview, all actions are predetermined in the sense that free will is an illusion? Morality, debating metaphysial issues, etc. are just natural occurences, "seeking purpose" has no more meaning than a leaf falling from a tree.

That being said, it's an interesting thought experiment to feel what we may already know, but a person that is open to that idea isn't actually an atheist are they?

[humblesmurph]

[Interesting. I can't speak for all atheists, but yes, I do believe that the world is getting warmer. Can I pin it down to a particular cause? No. Could it be us? Sure. What is discussed at this table you are referring to?

I don't really see your point about global warming. Sure. Maybe. You never know for sure. I mean, hardly groundbreaking stuff you're coming out with there.

Ah the table. You are at the table, smurph. You discuss things of a metaphysical nature when you disbelieve. You have a meaningless worldview. Yet you cannot resist debating the topics which apparently mean nothing to you. I just find this rather odd. Maybe you have or seek purpose. Maybe you're not so stupid after all. I dunno.

There is the belief that humans are definitely causing global warming and that we can stop it through our actions, I don't adhere to that view. There is also the belief that the world is not even getting warmer, I don't adhere to that view either. You asked whether atheists believed in global warming, I gave you my answer as a single atheist. I wasn't trying to make a point.

So this is the table. I don't remember talking about metaphysics. At least not here. I've taken a couple of classes on the subject though. When Aristotle discussed metaphysics he did so without an appeal to Yahweh.

What specific topics are you referring to? When you say "...you cannot resist debating the topics which apparently mean nothing to you." Are you referring to me, or all atheists? How are you so sure about what means what to me or all atheists?

[derrick09]

Hello again everyone, this also goes along with my origional post, more specifically this has to do with fabien socialism. It's connected to the whole socialism/communism camp and has had and still has a very large following in Europe and in the UK. One of the well known members was the play writer George Bernard Shaw. But anyway, this link talks about connections with fabien socialists and new atheists Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens.

http://dawkinswatch.wordpress.com/2009/ ... -hitchens/

[DannyM]

There is the belief that humans are definitely causing global warming and that we can stop it through our actions, I don't adhere to that view. There is also the belief that the world is not even getting warmer, I don't adhere to that view either. You asked whether atheists believed in global warming, I gave you my answer as a single atheist. I wasn't trying to make a point.

I see. What I was actually saying to Derrick is that we cannot pin down any particular trend with regards to atheism and global warming. I was saying we could equally find a trend regarding theism and global warming scepticism. The point being that atheism does not go hand in hand with global warming, just as theism does not go hand in hand with global warming scepticism.

But I take your point.

So this is the table. I don't remember talking about metaphysics. At least not here. I've taken a couple of classes on the subject though. When Aristotle discussed metaphysics he did so without an appeal to Yahweh.

What specific topics are you referring to? When you say "...you cannot resist debating the topics which apparently mean nothing to you." Are you referring to me, or all atheists? How are you so sure about what means what to me or all atheists?

I'm glad you acknowledge the absurdity of the propositiopn by going all the way back to Aristotle, with seemingly no inbetweens. Look, the point I am trying to make is that the genuine atheist must be one who simply does not see that there is any mystery here, one who is content to ask questions within the word, but cannot see that the world itself raises a question.

That is why atheists debating these ultimate questions is simply absurd.

It's like the railing against a God they don't believe in. The irony is so obvious and yet utterly lost on the atheist. And it turns out to be laughable if not downright ludicrous.

But, having said that, I do enjoy their company in debate.

[Bengali]

Atheists didn't start the crusades
Atheists had nothing to do with the Spanish inquisition
Atheists had nothing to do with the witch trials
Atheists (regardless of what the pope says) did not start WWII
Atheists are not fighting each other in the middle east
Atheists did not fly planes into the world trade centre

Atheists are not trying to destroy religion, we to be honest, don't care what you believe. have you noticed how few Atheist's there are on paranormal websites trying to talk people into not believing in ghosts? or telling people astrology is bull crap? Atheist simply want this, they want, for you, to take a good long look at the world, have a long think about what exactly it is that you believe, and why you believe it? it constantly amazes me that i can quote more of the bible than most people who claim to believe in it. how can you believe something if you don't know what it is? it amazes me how many people believe in the bible because their parents do. its amazing how many people believe in god because they were born into religious family's, and how few who weren't turn into believers.

What Atheist's DO want is to stop people killing each other needlessly. "if the Koran is so peaceful why does the word Jihad even exist" "if the bible says 'thou shalt not kill' what the hell were the crusades about?" Religion is fine, Organised religion is not. Organised religion, regardless of which one, is only ever used for evil. every year, 2.5 million people die from poverty, while the Vatican, supposed moral kings, sit on insurmountable amounts of wealth. every year, thousands of women are murdered in the middle east, because they were raped. why does this happen? because organised religion blinds people to the truth. i know many Catholics, not one of them is Evil, any yet they continue to go to a church, and give them money, so they can hear the supposed truth, which was just made up by a very cruel, very rich, old man in another country who hasn't cared about a single human being his whole life.

I would say you all should take a page out of the Atheists book. take a good long look at what you believe and why. take a long look at not the church you go to, but the organisation that runs it. and see if those Bishops and priests in charge of the running the whole thing are acting like good men, are they acting like ones who know the god you believe in, and doing his work. those of you who are catholic, look at the pope, and tell me, do you think god would agree with Benedict's rule he personally put in place, where if a priest is found to have molested a child, both the priest AND THE VICTIM MUST BE SILENCED, or is he doing that to keep his profit margin?

This is what Atheists Promote. believing in things because you came to the conclusion yourself. not because someone told you it because it was in their best interests to tell you.

And on the subject of Hawking. I love the man, he is an Idol and an inspiration to us all, what he has managed to achieve regardless of his disability. however, having met him on several occasions, i believe that his words have been taken out of context. i believe he wished to express that current scientific evidence has mearly shown that god is not needed for everything we see to exist. if everything is Number 5, and god is Number 2, then what Science has done is Shown that by adding 1 and 4 we can make 5 without using a 2. it doesn't mean that we got to 5 without 2, it shows its possible to do it. and as per usual, any time a scientist mentions god, the Church leaders jump on it and blow it way out of proportion, because of their profit margins.

[MarcusOfLycia]

While I understand where your coming from a little bit, I disagree that atheism as a world view leads to some sort of enlightenment that absolves humanity of suffering more than religion.

One of the most significant problems with atheism in this regard is that you are attempting to bring some kind of objective moral standard (for instance, human suffering) into the forefront of a reality you perceive to be entirely based on the laws of physics without a regard for chance within the confines of strict determinism. If that is the case, I don't understand how one complex arrangement of atoms breaking down into simpler arrangements (such as a human being dying and decomposing) has any relevance or that such a concept as morality could even make sense in that worldview. If determinism is an accurate view of the world, we cannot hold any organized religion (Christian, Muslim, or otherwise) responsible for any actions, since responsibility is merely an illusion we cast on others in a vain attempt to make sense of existence in an utterly meaningless world. What atheism promotes, when all the cards are laid out on the table, is a world without freedom of will, without truly objective morality, without meaning, and without purpose. A totally plausible atheistic approach to dealing with this problem would to prevent humanity from reproducing, thus preventing humanity from forcing additional deluded complex biochemical masses to realize their own meaningless mortality.

Now, I didn't quite address your specifics and I apologize for that, but I think overall some of the accusations are rather silly. There's a big difference between the Catholic Church as an institution and Christianity as a faith. In fact, the main belief of most Christians on this site, if I am accurate in this, is that true Christianity is an individual faith; an individual connection to God.

One last thing is that science has -not- in fact shown that the universe can exist without God. If the universe is truly a closed system of cause and effect carried out in matter and energy, its own definition indicates that something outside of it was required to start it; a first cause. This would be the definition of deism, by the way, not atheism, but it is more accurate according to science as we understand it today. Also, by definition, anything outside of the closed system universe of existence is definitively supernatural; natural being understood as whatever is within the closed system.

[smiley]

Bengali demonstrates massive historical illiteracy. If you appeal to Christian killings of the past, and then turn around and say that "atheists just want everyone to stop killing each other needlessly", you are either willfully self-deceptive or just blitheringly ignorant.

[August]

Atheist simply want this, they want, for you, to take a good long look at the world, have a long think about what exactly it is that you believe, and why you believe it? it constantly amazes me that i can quote more of the bible than most people who claim to believe in it. how can you believe something if you don't know what it is? it amazes me how many people believe in the bible because their parents do. its amazing how many people believe in god because they were born into religious family's, and how few who weren't turn into believers.

Ah, very good. So you want to us Christian dummies to take a "good long look at the world? If only we had your superior intellect, we would come to believe as you do? Your arrogance is funny but not unexpected, but ok, let's take some good long looks, shall we?

Please prove that God does not exist. The floor is yours. Please use logic in the form of syllogisms, and provide your assumptions. I would like to understand your epistemology to start with.

[Gman]

Atheists didn't start the crusades
Atheists had nothing to do with the Spanish inquisition
Atheists had nothing to do with the witch trials
Atheists (regardless of what the pope says) did not start WWII
Atheists are not fighting each other in the middle east
Atheists did not fly planes into the world trade centre

Atheists are not trying to destroy religion, we to be honest, don't care what you believe. have you noticed how few Atheist's there are on paranormal websites trying to talk people into not believing in ghosts? or telling people astrology is bull crap? Atheist simply want this, they want, for you, to take a good long look at the world, have a long think about what exactly it is that you believe, and why you believe it? it constantly amazes me that i can quote more of the bible than most people who claim to believe in it. how can you believe something if you don't know what it is? it amazes me how many people believe in the bible because their parents do. its amazing how many people believe in god because they were born into religious family's, and how few who weren't turn into believers.

FYI.. Atheism is a religion just like any other religion. Technically Christianity is NOT a religion. Unfortunately, when it come to the issues of the origins of life, atheism is also a religion of miracles and outrageous probabilities. If you believe that naturalism without an intelligent designer is somehow a scientific theory, it is MOST CERTAINLY not. Atheistic evolution, is not scientific at all, it is built on philosophy.

What Atheist's DO want is to stop people killing each other needlessly. "if the Koran is so peaceful why does the word Jihad even exist" "if the bible says 'thou shalt not kill' what the hell were the crusades about?" Religion is fine, Organised religion is not. Organised religion, regardless of which one, is only ever used for evil. every year, 2.5 million people die from poverty, while the Vatican, supposed moral kings, sit on insurmountable amounts of wealth. every year, thousands of women are murdered in the middle east, because they were raped. why does this happen? because organised religion blinds people to the truth. i know many Catholics, not one of them is Evil, any yet they continue to go to a church, and give them money, so they can hear the supposed truth, which was just made up by a very cruel, very rich, old man in another country who hasn't cared about a single human being his whole life.

That's the Koran... In the Bible we are told to love our neighbors as ourselves.. Matthew 22:36-40. Tell me, what does your religion tell you about your neighbor? Technically, they are nothing but chemicals... A meaningless mass of chemicals. Pity.

I would say you all should take a page out of the Atheists book. take a good long look at what you believe and why. take a long look at not the church you go to, but the organisation that runs it. and see if those Bishops and priests in charge of the running the whole thing are acting like good men, are they acting like ones who know the god you believe in, and doing his work. those of you who are catholic, look at the pope, and tell me, do you think god would agree with Benedict's rule he personally put in place, where if a priest is found to have molested a child, both the priest AND THE VICTIM MUST BE SILENCED, or is he doing that to keep his profit margin?

I have taken a page out of the atheists handbooks.. But then I realized I was in the comedy section.

This is what Atheists Promote. believing in things because you came to the conclusion yourself. not because someone told you it because it was in their best interests to tell you.

Unfortunately the claim is false... Atheism MOST CERTAINLY does not have all the conclusion or answers. No one has 100 percent proof of anything. Even to admit that is proof that you are leaning on your scientific bias.

And on the subject of Hawking. I love the man, he is an Idol and an inspiration to us all, what he has managed to achieve regardless of his disability. however, having met him on several occasions, i believe that his words have been taken out of context. i believe he wished to express that current scientific evidence has mearly shown that god is not needed for everything we see to exist. if everything is Number 5, and god is Number 2, then what Science has done is Shown that by adding 1 and 4 we can make 5 without using a 2. it doesn't mean that we got to 5 without 2, it shows its possible to do it. and as per usual, any time a scientist mentions god, the Church leaders jump on it and blow it way out of proportion, because of their profit margins.

Hawking has revealed that his beliefs are truly philosophical. They are not scientific at all.. I would like to thank him personally for giving us more fuel for the fire. I can't even count how many times I've debated atheists about how their "so called" scientific beliefs don't interfere with the existence of God. Unfortunately for Hawkings, he has given us a road map to that belief structure. The rabbit has finally jumped out of the hat. And it isn't scientific at all, it's magic...

So thank you Hawkings for revealing the true philosophical premises of his beliefs. An attack on the existence of God... Something science supposedly doesn't address.

[Echoside]

Atheist simply want this, they want, for you, to take a good long look at the world, have a long think about what exactly it is that you believe, and why you believe it? it constantly amazes me that i can quote more of the bible than most people who claim to believe in it. how can you believe something if you don't know what it is? it amazes me how many people believe in the bible because their parents do. its amazing how many people believe in god because they were born into religious family's, and how few who weren't turn into believers.

Matthew 7:22 comes to mind, not everyone who steps into a church is a christian/saved. Also, I would like to challenge you to continue thinking about what exactly it is that you believe, some of the other statements you make don't exactly ring with logic.

What Atheist's DO want is to stop people killing each other needlessly. "if the Koran is so peaceful why does the word Jihad even exist" "if the bible says 'thou shalt not kill' what the hell were the crusades about?" Religion is fine, Organised religion is not. Organised religion, regardless of which one, is only ever used for evil. every year, 2.5 million people die from poverty, while the Vatican, supposed moral kings, sit on insurmountable amounts of wealth. every year, thousands of women are murdered in the middle east, because they were raped. why does this happen? because organised religion blinds people to the truth. i know many Catholics, not one of them is Evil, any yet they continue to go to a church, and give them money, so they can hear the supposed truth, which was just made up by a very cruel, very rich, old man in another country who hasn't cared about a single human being his whole life.

I'm sorry, but where in the bible does it endorse the crusades as a morally amazing thing, I must have missed it. Once again, Matthew 7:22. Organised religion is only ever used for evil. What? I can count numerous times in my life where my poverty has prevented us from eating and the church helped out. You can't just go around making blanket statements like this, and as an atheist claim to be some critical free thinker.

[SnowDrops]

2 words Bengal: Wishful thinking.