Proinsias wrote:Complete faith in anything will obviously eliminate doubt in that thing, but it won't eliminate doubt.
Is this your personal opinion? I certainly disagree with it. Not even 'complete' faith (whatever that means) will eliminate doubt. Doubt is not the opposite of faith, it is part and parcel of it. Doubt and free will go hand in hand.
hmmmm,
I do see what you mean, and pretty much agree. As positive and negative complement each other, faith does not destroy doubt. I was trying to respond to B.W's line about Christianity removing doubt, and Zen never being able to remove doubt. I realise 'complete faith' may not be the most lucid of thoughts but it's the best I could come up with when trying to imagine something which would remove doubt in at least a particular area.
zcaz wrote:I hear many Creationists argue that without a God, we wouldn't have "Objective Morality". What leads us to believe certain actions are right and wrong? While I do agree that we are given these right and wrongs by God, I don't believe the animal kingdom proves any less 'Moral' than us, in fact they seem to be more morally intact.
Animals mostly do what is necessary for their survival, and nothing more than that.. they don't go on random killing sprees(against their own kind) if it does not somehow benefit them like humans do. They do not abort their babies simply because they don't want to take care of them as humans do, with 93% of abortions being due to...birth control reasons, and 1.3 million babies aborted per year, I would say Humans show more negative moral values than the 'spiritless'(therefore incorruptible) animal kingdom.
Isn't this view backed up within the Bible? Didn't sin cause man to do evil deeds? So i would say on the contrary to what these certain creationists claim, that our immorality is what proves we are separate from any spiritless animal out there, not our ability to do good.
In this video below, William Lane Craig debates Lewis Wolpert and uses this argument to no avail, and ends up finding himself in a bit of trouble..
You can tell his back was up against the wall when he claimed animals kill their own babies off all the time. He had no prior knowledge to whether they do or not, and eventually made up a pretty hilarious lie about pet mice that he had who ate their babies, saying it was umm...awful lol! It was a shame seeing Craig in such a tough position, I love watching him debate because he brings up many great points and is very educated in how to school an atheist(haha) however I do think he needs to reinvent this argument, which would be pretty easy..
I'm just wondering, do you guys think "Objective Morality" is a good case, or do you think it's easy for evolutionists and such to pass it off as learned behavior as natural selection progresses?(In which case I come to wonder why we have become more mischievous and selfish?)
Actually, the guy he was debating was constantly inconsistent and refused to understand his errors or Craigs' arguments.
The first step to learning is to admit that you don't know.
I don't have to prove anything. Objective truths testify of themselves as to their objectivity, unless that is, you want to admit that the objective truths of the laws of math, physics, chemistry, and biology are not objective in and of themselves unless and until humans and their perceptions came along. Are you certain you want to admit that or do you concede that objective truths do exist independent of our perceptions?
I appreciate that you don't have to prove anything.
Again I ask, you made these things "objective"? who stated and proved them to be such?
We did, based on our perception of reality as we know it.
Remember, not to long ago it was the objective truth that no woman could give birth AND be a virgin ( never had sexual intercourse), correct?
Is that the case now?
No.
Not too long ago the object truth was that atoms were made of proton, neutrons and electrons and now?
Now we have quarks that are also part of the atomic structure.
In our reality 1 + 1 = 2, until we discover that it doesn't or discover an alternate reality/universe/dimension where it doesn't, then what?
It is the objective truth that people die and after they are dead there is NOTHING, no afterlife and certainly no ressurection, there is no object proof of those things.
That we die and do not come back to life is a truth that testifies to itself, correct?
Well, here's a way to say it: Regardless whether you know about gravity or not, when you jump off a building, you don't break the law of gravity - the law of gravity breaks YOU!
Duh. That's why it's a law. You may not know about it or want it but it exists regardless.
The first step to learning is to admit that you don't know.
B. W. wrote:Pros, does our mortal physical life cease?
It may well do. Saying that all dead things were once alive does not mean that all that is alive will die, I'll admit it seems likely. If I were a betting man......
B. W. wrote:Matter of fact, did your great-great-great grand father's physical mortal life cease?
I have no idea who they were but imagine they were pronounced dead a long time ago.
B. W. wrote:Is physical mortal death certian?
no
In fact, is ANYTHING certain?
The first step to learning is to admit that you don't know.
Ultimately I would agree with that since death has been conquered and we will eventually be raised again, bodily. Hey Proinsias, are you sure you haven't converted yet?
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.
Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
If someone says that physical mortal death isn't certain, then they are either being willfully ignorant, stubborn, or deluded by some other religious ideology.
you might as well try to convince a fence post that God exists.
Saying that all dead things were once alive does not mean that all that is alive will die, I'll admit it seems likely.
On what grounds? Obviously we have had billions of lifeforms on the earth and we know that they have ALL died. How is it only likely? How many case studies are on record that something living hasn't died?
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord
"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
Just Matter of time my friend, and you know it. Certain!
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord
"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
Reading Bertrand Russell's Problems of Philosophy at the moment. The opening lines made me think of this thread:
Is there any knowledge in the world which is so certain that no reasonable man could doubt it? This question, which at first sight might not seem difficult, is really one of the most difficult that can be asked.
Proinsias wrote:Reading Bertrand Russell's Problems of Philosophy at the moment. The opening lines made me think of this thread:
Is there any knowledge in the world which is so certain that no reasonable man could doubt it? This question, which at first sight might not seem difficult, is really one of the most difficult that can be asked.
Yep, still so certain about uncertancy
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)
Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys
Objective Morality must be revealed. Solomon pondered this and figured out that it comes by revealed objective truth such as..
Eccl 3:1 There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven--
Eccl 3:2 A time to give birth and a time to die; A time to plant and a time to uproot what is planted.
Eccl 3:3 A time to kill and a time to heal; A time to tear down and a time to build up.
Eccl 3:4 A time to weep and a time to laugh; A time to mourn and a time to dance.
Eccl 3:5 A time to throw stones and a time to gather stones; A time to embrace and a time to shun embracing.
Eccl 3:6 A time to search and a time to give up as lost; A time to keep and a time to throw away.
Eccl 3:7 A time to tear apart and a time to sew together; A time to be silent and a time to speak.
Eccl 3:8 A time to love and a time to hate; A time for war and a time for peace.
Objective Morality helps reveal what time it is. The only way to understand objective morality is to understand the giver, which Solomon reveals in the last Chapter - Eccl 12:1-14
Eccl 12:1 Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, before the evil days come and the years draw near when you will say, "I have no delight in them";
Eccl 12:2 before the sun and the light, the moon and the stars are darkened, and clouds return after the rain;
Eccl 12:3 in the day that the watchmen of the house tremble, and mighty men stoop, the grinding ones stand idle because they are few, and those who look through windows grow dim;
Eccl 12:4 and the doors on the street are shut as the sound of the grinding mill is low, and one will arise at the sound of the bird, and all the daughters of song will sing softly.
Eccl 12:5 Furthermore, men are afraid of a high place and of terrors on the road; the almond tree blossoms, the grasshopper drags himself along, and the caperberry is ineffective. For man goes to his eternal home while mourners go about in the street.
Eccl 12:9 In addition to being a wise man, the Preacher also taught the people knowledge; and he pondered, searched out and arranged many proverbs.
Eccl 12:10 The Preacher sought to find delightful words and to write words of truth correctly.
Eccl 12:11 The words of wise men are like goads, and masters of these collections are like well-driven nails; they are given by one Shepherd.
Eccl 12:12 But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body.
Eccl 12:13 The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.
Eccl 12:14 For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.
So how will you stand Pros ???
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)
Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys
