should Christian participate in war (defense or offense)

[Once4all]

And I also agree with those who said that it goes against the teachings of Jesus.

Jesus never said anything about war.

Is that so?

Mat 24:6 "You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.

O

That's not speaking against it though. That's just saying that wars will come, but those wars won't mean the end. I don't see anywhere where it states "don't go to those wars".

I didn't say He was speaking against war in those verses. But Mm said that Jesus never said "anything" about war. That's what I was responding to.

O

[j316]

A quick survey of scripture would lead one to the conclusion that there is no prohibtion against war. Indeed it appears to be a part of human existence and one that God uses for His own ends at times.

That said, there are definitely stupid and unnecessary wars, and the real evil of war is the excuse it offers for barbarity. The present one in Iraq is a good example.

I don't think Jesus is anti-war but I am certain that He can not condone the descent into inhumane barbarity that it often leads to.

[Mastermind]

And I also agree with those who said that it goes against the teachings of Jesus.

Jesus never said anything about war.

Is that so?

Mat 24:6 "You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.

O

That's not speaking against it though. That's just saying that wars will come, but those wars won't mean the end. I don't see anywhere where it states "don't go to those wars".

I didn't say He was speaking against war in those verses. But Mm said that Jesus never said "anything" about war. That's what I was responding to.

O

Given the context, it requires little to no intelligence to get my point. The fact that you had to take it as literal and out of context for the sake of dodging the actual issue shows that you yourself cannot support your position that Jesus is against every single reason for and form of combat.

[Once4all]

Jesus never said anything about war.

Is that so?

Mat 24:6 "You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.

O

That's not speaking against it though. That's just saying that wars will come, but those wars won't mean the end. I don't see anywhere where it states "don't go to those wars".

I didn't say He was speaking against war in those verses. But Mm said that Jesus never said "anything" about war. That's what I was responding to.

O

Given the context, it requires little to no intelligence to get my point. The fact that you had to take it as literal and out of context for the sake of dodging the actual issue shows that you yourself cannot support your position that Jesus is against every single reason for and form of combat.

Do you think the Inquisition and the Crusades were justified? Do you think Jesus would have approved? If he wouldn't approve of Christians killing people for the sake of His kingdom, why would you think he'd approve of Christians killing people for reasons outside the kingdom?

But never mind. I don't seek to prove myself the victor nor argue with a fellow Christian.

O

[Anonymous]

I don't see anything wrong with honorable justified warfare. If you don't hate the person you're fighting, if you try your best to capture them and not kill them, and if you treat them with as much dignity and respect as one of your own, you're basically making a stand for what you believe and what they believe.

Thou shalt not murder.

Murder is not the same as killing someone in live combat, it's close but in live combat both sides basically forfeit their rights to quarter and mercy. If an enemy surrenders, you capture them, you don't kill them. But if they don't, then basically there's an agreement that the two of you are perfectly fine with the possibility that you will be killed.

Just because someone is fine with the risk of being killed in war doesn't mean it's not murder. Murder is the killing of another due to premediated intent. When a solider fires a gun at the enemy, he does so with premediation. His act meets the classic definition of murder.

The idea that someone in live combat "basically forgeit their rights to quarter and mercy" is an artificial construct, a moral framework that you are using to justify participation of war. In my above example, the solider mets the classic definition of murder (in the first or second degree). You simply decided to waive the charge of murder because the act occurred within the artificial construct or framework that you created. The very act of killing someone does not change. War remains what it is, an end that needs no justification because War justifies itself.

[Dan]

Wrong. Murder as defined in the Bible is not so.

Of course, I'm using the Biblical definition to define Christian beliefs, not other sources.

Also, the goal of a soldier in battle is to neutralize the enemy, not exactly kill them. If a soldier can take a person alive, they are pretty much supposed to do so. If a soldier can shoot to incapacitate, they should do so though in the chaos of war it is hard for such an action. When the enemy starts shooting at you, you're allowed to shoot back.

P.S.: I'd like to cite the story about Jesus Christ healing the servant of a centurion when the centurion asked Him to do so. A centurion is a senior officer in the Roman army if you didn't know. Since Jesus didn't tell him to depart from his life, we can assume that Jesus and Our God don't have a particular problem with soldiers.

[Anonymous]

Wrong. Murder as defined in the Bible is not so.

Of course, I'm using the Biblical definition to define Christian beliefs, not other sources.

Also, the goal of a soldier in battle is to neutralize the enemy, not exactly kill them. If a soldier can take a person alive, they are pretty much supposed to do so. If a soldier can shoot to incapacitate, they should do so though in the chaos of war it is hard for such an action. When the enemy starts shooting at you, you're allowed to shoot back.

How is murder defined in the Bible?

As for solider goals, is this the biblical definitions? If you are using the U.S. military Rules of Engagement, I'm sure you are aware that the solider can shoot the person even if the person can be taken alive, depending on the circumstances, right? In fact, following our own rules, allows even deaths of third parties (such as Children) by U.S. weapons. The killing of innocent third parties is an even greater philosophical conundrum than we are currently discussing.

P.S.: I'd like to cite the story about Jesus Christ healing the servant of a centurion when the centurion asked Him to do so. A centurion is a senior officer in the Roman army if you didn't know. Since Jesus didn't tell him to depart from his life, we can assume that Jesus and Our God don't have a particular problem with soldiers.

Say what? Merely because Jesus didn't tell him to depart, you can conclude that he didn't have a problem with soliders? Exactly how did you reach this conclusion? You're making alot of assumptions here Dan. Maybe Jesus didn't tell him to depart because he loved all people, even soliders, but he still had a problem with soliders because they killed people.

[Dan]

Wrong. Murder as defined in the Bible is not so.

Of course, I'm using the Biblical definition to define Christian beliefs, not other sources.

Also, the goal of a soldier in battle is to neutralize the enemy, not exactly kill them. If a soldier can take a person alive, they are pretty much supposed to do so. If a soldier can shoot to incapacitate, they should do so though in the chaos of war it is hard for such an action. When the enemy starts shooting at you, you're allowed to shoot back.

How is murder defined in the Bible?

As for solider goals, is this the biblical definitions? If you are using the U.S. military Rules of Engagement, I'm sure you are aware that the solider can shoot the person even if the person can be taken alive, depending on the circumstances, right? In fact, following our own rules, allows even deaths of third parties (such as Children) by U.S. weapons. The killing of innocent third parties is an even greater philosophical conundrum than we are currently discussing.

P.S.: I'd like to cite the story about Jesus Christ healing the servant of a centurion when the centurion asked Him to do so. A centurion is a senior officer in the Roman army if you didn't know. Since Jesus didn't tell him to depart from his life, we can assume that Jesus and Our God don't have a particular problem with soldiers.

Say what? Merely because Jesus didn't tell him to depart, you can conclude that he didn't have a problem with soliders? Exactly how did you reach this conclusion? You're making alot of assumptions here Dan. Maybe Jesus didn't tell him to depart because he loved all people, even soliders, but he still had a problem with soliders because they killed people.

Did I ever say the US rules of engagements are the biblical definition of an acceptable war? No. A war fought in adherence to Biblical law is defensive, not aggressive, ended as soon as possible, as merciful as possible.

Also, do you even read the bible? Jesus told everyone He met that was a sinner to depart from their sin and follow Him. He praised the centurion for being of great faith while, for example, the rich man who wanted to follow Him was tested to the point where he refused to follow because he didn't sell his riches as Jesus told him to. The rich man was not allowed to be rich, yet the centurion was not told to depart from being a soldier.

Also, Saint Joan of Arc fought a war, the church isn't exactly against it per se.

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

Dan, I would say one thing-Jesus didn't have a problem with rich people, I highly doubt that. He was showing the guy that, in fact, he really didn't want to follow Him. The rich man was too concerned with the comforts of the world.

[Anonymous]

Also, do you even read the bible?

What do you mean by do I even read the bilble? What does this have to do within the context of my point?

I just asked you what were the biblical definitions of war and the rules of engagement. I don't know what they are. From what I've read, it's not clear to me. I certainly don't claim to be an expert. I will however argue that I've read more than most.

As for the Roman Solider, just because Jesus didn't tell him to abandon his post, doesn't mean that Jesus condoned the activity. To draw your conclusion that he does approve of war is a serious leap from the text since you are assuming that mere silence equals acquiescance.

[The edge]

A war fought in adherence to Biblical law is defensive, not aggressive, as merciful as possible.

Boy am I glad that this thread came alive again.

Honestly Dan, I'm not too sure about the merciful part. Deep inside, I always wonder why must all the enemies be killed...including livestocks..in some of the OT wars.
As for the agressive part ....not too sure if the conquest of Cannaan is considered defensive.
I'm not questioning God's way tho.

However in NT, I just felt that the concept of physical kingdom (for the Jews) is replaced by the spiritual kingdom. As a result, it no longer matter which king one falls under. Our job is transform now from physical warrior to prayer warrior for we no longer fight the physical but the spiritual with God's words.
In historical wars, nations that allowed the agressor to walk thru their counteries (e.g. Thai in WWII...unless my history is all wrong) did not suffer much for their stand.
Let the Christian submit to the new king & concentrate on fighting the real war.

[Dan]

A war fought in adherence to Biblical law is defensive, not aggressive, as merciful as possible.

Boy am I glad that this thread came alive again.

Honestly Dan, I'm not too sure about the merciful part. Deep inside, I always wonder why must all the enemies be killed...including livestocks..in some of the OT wars.
As for the agressive part ....not too sure if the conquest of Cannaan is considered defensive.
I'm not questioning God's way tho.

However in NT, I just felt that the concept of physical kingdom (for the Jews) is replaced by the spiritual kingdom. As a result, it no longer matter which king one falls under. Our job is transform now from physical warrior to prayer warrior for we no longer fight the physical but the spiritual with God's words.
In historical wars, nations that allowed the agressor to walk thru their counteries (e.g. Thai in WWII...unless my history is all wrong) did not suffer much for their stand.
Let the Christian submit to the new king & concentrate on fighting the real war.

Many of the people who were not treated with mercy in the OT were enemies of God. They were like sodom and gomorrah. However, nowadays, we don't have God guiding our wars, we have only our judgement to guide us and the rule of thumb Christ has given us is to be merciful.

WWII is a terrible example, look at the consequences of letting Germany walk right through. God's people, the children of Abraham were slaughtered as well as some christians and the gypsies. A war fought by a Christian is to defend another person, not themselves. The countries that didn't resist Germany effectively allowed genocide.

Arretium: I did not say Christ condoned war, I am just stating that war isn't a sin when you consider it alone. It can be good if you're defending someone, such as a helpless child, but bad if you are doing it in aggression.

Christ told us to be submitting when it comes to our own safety, He never said to let others die when we can act to stop it.

KMart: Then why didn't Jesus test the centurion as well? He taught that one cannot serve money and God at the same time yet he never said anything about serving God and serving your country at the same time being impossible. Why is the NT silent on the issue if Jesus had a problem with war? I say it is silent because all sins are accounted for, and war is not a sin unless sins are committed during it.

If war is a sin, what of the battle of Armageddon? That is the final battle between God and the enemy and yet it isn't symbolic, it will be a real battle where Christ will ride in with many of his followers and angels and beat the dead (as opposed to living) snot out of Satan and the sinful.

[Felgar]

I've been staying out of this thread because I don't want to affect it. I am very interested on hearing arguments for both sides, and this is because I myself am very torn about the whole issue.

On one hand, I don't believe that Christians have the right to take another life, mainly because we may be sending an unprepared soul to their doom. I also completely agree with The Edge that the kingdom in which we ARE to fight is the spiritual kingdom where we fight the principalities of darkness. Jesus' second commandment is to love our neighbour, and no matter how you look at it, shooting him is not love! In my mind this verse presents stong evidence that we should never fight. Jesus clearly instructed his own disciples not to fight - and even after Jesus was gone His disciples were executed themselves without taking up arms.

John 18:36
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

Then we have the other side of me. The side that is so grateful for the past generation who fought for my freedom and liberty. How can I in good conscience condemn war while enjoying so much of my life which is a direct result of it? Clearly Hitler was evil and needed to be stopped; how could I ever justify not stopping it?

So then, I challenge anyone to provide solid scriptural evidence (from the new testament because Jesus set up his new spiritual kingdom) that condones or encourages war for just causes. Dan's argument about the centurion is a start, and it's something I hadn't previously considered. It's hardly convincing though.

P.S. Again, Revelations doesn't count because that is the mark of the end of this phase of God's plan that we now live in. From the time of Christ to the time of his return we are to live a certain way, and from what I can tell that doesn't include fighting ourselves, even though there will always be war.

[bizzt]

I am quite interested in this Discussion as well
I am going to put a bunch of Scriptures some directly related but most are indirectly related to war

Not including Revelations these are the Scriptures with War attributed to them


Luk 14:31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?

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Luk 23:11 And Herod with his men of war set him at nought, and mocked [him], and arrayed him in a gorgeous robe, and sent him again to Pilate.

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2Cr 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

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1Ti 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;

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Jam 4:1 From whence [come] wars and fightings among you? [come they] not hence, [even] of your lusts that war in your members?

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Jam 4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.

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1Pe 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech [you] as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

I know you did not want this Felgar but here is those Revelation Verses

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

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Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

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Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

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Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

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Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.

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Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

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Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

[bizzt]

And one more Reply
Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

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Act 5:39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

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Act 23:9 And there arose a great cry: and the scribes [that were] of the Pharisees' part arose, and strove, saying, We find no evil in this man: but if a spirit or an angel hath spoken to him, let us not fight against God.

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1Cr 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

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1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

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2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished [my] course, I have kept the faith:

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Hbr 10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;

Hbr 11:34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

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Jam 4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.

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Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.