Death Penalty

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

You must define the words you are using. Murder and killing are not the same thing. I'm not going to argue against you, as I'm now against the death penalty (some of the same reasons, one of them being it's an absolute punishment, and you're not absolutely sure!).

Kill:

To put to death.
To deprive of life: The Black Death was a disease that killed millions.
To put an end to; extinguish: The rain killed our plans for a picnic.

Murder:

The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

[Anonymous]

K-Mart

Whose definition are you using? Not the biblical definition I presume.

Murder and killing are not the same thing.

Not necessarily. Even by your own definition murder is a subset of killing, a type of killing that occurs.

[bizzt]

K-Mart

Whose definition are you using? Not the biblical definition I presume.

Murder and killing are not the same thing.

Not necessarily. Even by your own definition murder is a subset of killing, a type of killing that occurs.

I would say that is pretty much along the line of the Bible
Murder was when Cain Killed Abel. He was Jealous and Murdered Abel

Killing is when David killed Goliath.

[Prodigal Son]

ocotseat,

like i said, locking people up protects society just as well as executions. murderers should be locked up forever, but not killed. if anything, we should be studying serial killers to help prevent more of them. and you're right, many people are born into horrible conditions and don't become killers...but some of them do. remember, Jesus "came to seek and to save what was lost." no one has the right to kill/destroy/murder (whatever you want to call it) anyone else. however you look at it, it's wrong.

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

K-Mart

Whose definition are you using? Not the biblical definition I presume.

Murder and killing are not the same thing.

Not necessarily. Even by your own definition murder is a subset of killing, a type of killing that occurs.

So will the great oz give us the Biblical definitions??

I tried looking for it, couldn't find a good site just now...


Yet, there is a call for capital punishment in the Bible...

Leviticus 24 "If a man kills anyone, he must be put to death.

Numbers 35 Read This Chapter
35:19
The avenger of blood himself is to kill the murderer; when he finds him, he is to kill him.
35:20
Likewise, if anyone in hatred pushes a person or throws [an object] at him with malicious intent and he dies,
35:21
or if in hostility he strikes him with his hand and he dies, the one who struck him must be put to death; he is a murderer. The avenger of blood is to kill the murderer when he finds him.

35:22
"But if anyone suddenly pushes a person without hostility or throws any object at him without malicious intent
35:23
or drops a stone without looking that could kill a person and he dies, but he was not his enemy and wasn't trying to harm him,
35:24
the assembly is to judge between the slayer and the avenger of blood according to these ordinances.
35:25
The assembly is to protect the one who kills someone from the hand of the avenger of blood. Then the assembly will return him to the city of refuge he fled to, and he must live there until the death of the high priest who was anointed with the holy oil.

35:26
"If the one who kills someone ever goes outside the border of the city of refuge he fled to,
35:27
and the avenger of blood finds him outside the border of his city of refuge and kills him, the avenger will not be guilty of bloodshed,
35:28
for the one who killed a person was supposed to live in his city of refuge until the death of the high priest. Only after the death of the high priest may the one who has killed a person return to the land he possesses.
35:29
These [instructions] will be a statutory ordinance for you throughout your generations wherever you live.

35:30
"If anyone kills a person, the murderer is to be put to death based on the word of witnesses. But no one is to be put to death based on the testimony of one witness.

But many murders don't have witnesses...so...

[Prodigal Son]

so when Jesus came, it meant nothing? wasn't part of his mission to revamp the old testament? the ot talks about plenty of things that lost their credence with Jesus' coming.

[Felgar]

so when Jesus came, it meant nothing? wasn't part of his mission to revamp the old testament? the ot talks about plenty of things that lost their credence with Jesus' coming.

Agreed. Jesus changed the rules.

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

Jesus didn't come to abolish but to fulfill the law....but, that doesn't mean we should kill all the murderers, because as I said, how many murders are commited in front of witnesses? Or witnessses who remain witnesses?

[ochotseat]

They are on death row for I don't remember, at least 6 years at least, and they're going through appeals like toilet paper. More than they would with just a life sentence.

If there was a murder on your block, a prosecutor worth half his salt could convict you, your dog, and everyone else on your block for
killing that person. Hence the problem with killing someone via state sanctified murder: the system isn't perfect. The mere allegation broadcasted on TV news leads 75% of people to believe that the person is guilty. How many of you think M. Jackson molested those boys? You don't have to answer, you know in your gut what your position is. Most people believe that a person wouldn't be charge if he didn't do it.

Compound the above with the fact that the state murder is final complicates the issue immensely.

Finally, there's just the sheer hyprocrisy of it. You believe murder is not okay, except when the state does it? Or except when the person is a murderer themselves? How do you rationalize this position, yet refuse to allow abortions?

The Catholic Church's position on the death penalty is one of the few positions of that church that I find merits respect. At least you can't argue hypocrisy from the Catholic church on the abortion issue. The church (and some or most of their members) believe that murder is wrong no matter who does it, whether that be a person or a state government

If someone murdered your spouse or child, would you want that person to live? The Bible says an eye for an eye. Most Americans support the death penalty, and it should never have been overturned for minors by the liberals in the Supreme Court. Why go against what the majority of your countrymen want? The fallacy of executions costing more money than life sentences is flawed---executions ONLY cost more if they're on death row for a very long time and lawyers are always working on their defense. Instead of lethal injections and scores of countless appeals, we should just clear death row and return to firing squads, hanging, gas chamber, electric chair, or the guillotine.

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

Any idiot knows that the best way to get at a person is to ruin everything he has and let him live in it. So, tossing someone in jail for life is worse than killing him. And, with the electric chair, firing squad, gas chamber, death by hanging, and death by boredom, what about the innocent people who will die? There won't be many most likely, but, still...

Why go against what the majority of your countrymen want?

The majority isn't always right.

I'm still half death penalty. I haven't finished with this idea...

[Felgar]

I think we should leave it in God's hands. Put them in prison and from there God's will be done. It's not our place to decide who lives or dies, even if the person is a murderer. Remember in God's eyes we're all equally guilty.

I think it's interesting to note that Jesus never supported killing anyone and He saved the criminal's life by challenging that he who's without sin cast the first stone.

And in terms of God's will, note that Jesus never killed anyone while in human form, but the Holy Spirit killed Ananias and Saphiras on the spot for lying. By that token I see no reason that we should take on the responsibility of that decision - only God can take life.

[Prodigal Son]

ochotseat:

death penalty...should never have been overturned for minors.

pretty sick, dude. also, you still haven't given any valid reasons for your shoulds. probably because they are wants--your wants. pride/arrogance won't allow you to let your desires go. the ot's stance on "an eye for an eye" was altered by Jesus. you can hang on it for your own needs, but regardless of what the majority wants, some things are just plain wrong. the majority condones lots of things: premarital sex, divorce...the majority is not God.

[ochotseat]

Any ***** knows that the best way to get at a person is to ruin everything he has and let him live in it. So, tossing someone in jail for life is worse than killing him.

Jails have television, radio, gyms, air conditioning...those conditions are too comfortable for these sick people.

And, with the electric chair, firing squad, gas chamber, death by hanging, and death by boredom, what about the innocent people who will die?

Same tired liberal argument.

The majority isn't always right.

We live in a republic.

I think we should leave it in God's hands. Put them in prison and from there God's will be done. It's not our place to decide who lives or dies, even if the person is a murderer. Remember in God's eyes we're all equally guilty.

If God didn't want them dead, they wouldn't be on death row to begin with. God invented the gas chamber for a reason.

I think it's interesting to note that Jesus never supported killing anyone and He saved the criminal's life by challenging that he who's without sin cast the first stone.

You can't compare a hooker to a killer.

pretty sick, dude.

If that's sick, you're calling most conservatives sick. When laws are relaxed for minors committing crimes, juvenile crimes rise rapidly.

also, you still haven't given any valid reasons for your shoulds.

Yes, I have. You just didn't listen, because you've been influenced by anti-death penalty liberals. Thank goodness for our pro-death penalty Protestant ethics.

the majority condones lots of things: premarital sex, divorce...the majority is not God.

Divorce is acceptable in cases of emotional or physical abuse or adultery.

[bizzt]

I think it's interesting to note that Jesus never supported killing anyone and He saved the criminal's life by challenging that he who's without sin cast the first stone.

Was that not when He saved the Woman's Life because she went against the Torah in some way. It had nothing to do with Murder, Stealing etc...?? Or am I missing the point!

[Prodigal Son]

ocotseat:

if God didn't want them dead, they wouldn't be on death row to begin with. God invented the gas chamber for a reason.

almost more hilarious than it is flawed and ridiculous! first off, that's like saying God allows raping of children because he wants it to happen. he wants wars and murder and mayhem and torture and death. simply a retarded statement. secondly, anyone with any mental acuity, and definately anyone who is truly a christian can deduce that God didn't "invent" the gas chamber! how ludicrous are going to allow yourself to be to defend your absurd stance? man invented the chair. if you can't see that, you're more lost than i thought.

on your statement about minors and the death penalty and me calling it sick, you replied:

if that's sick, your calling most conservatives sick.

umm, i really have no problem with that. most conservatives are sick. almost everyone on this planet is sick. i don't really care what they call themselves or what group they lump themselves into.

on my telling you that you haven't given any valid reasons for your "shoulds", you replied:

yes i have. you just didn't listen...

maybe you are the one who isn't listening to yourself. reasons based on prejudice/emotion are not real reasons. even when provided with proof that you are wrong on one of your "reasons", your stubbornness will not allow you to concede. let us take a look at your reasons...

almost all criminals turn back to crime...

the reason for this was explained to you. your having had this belief was based on ignorance. maintaining it is a result of unreasonableness, stubbornness/pride.

the bible says an eye for an eye.

this was also explained to you to no avail. stubbornness

to use money to keep people alive...maybe going against God.

maybe YOUR God, but not mine. this is called greed.

most americans support the death penalty...

why go against the majority...

blind faith, misplaced trust (you should be trusting the word of God, not the majority), ignorance

if someone murdered your spouse/child, would you want that person to live?

selfishness/revenge


sorry, but your reasons are not really reasons at all, my friend.

you didn't listen because you've been influence by anti-death penalty liberals.

actually, i supported the death penalty until i became christian. i have been influenced by God's word. i couldn't care less what you think or what anyone else thinks.

you need to start thinking for yourself...wait, that might not be such a good idea.