Are you a sincere seeker who has questions about Christianity, or a Christian with doubts about your faith? Post them here to receive a thoughtful response.
In any case, time is part and parcel of creation, otherwise it would lead to many paradoxes (most commonly associated with the oscillating universe theory). Time is so woven into the fabric of the universe that it is now more common to call space and time as a single entity: space-time. So no, time could not have existed before the creation of the universe.
Yo Byblos, what are some of the paradoxes?
In the oscillating universe theory there is no singularity, it's sort of like a rounded edge of an up and down wave where one universe ends and another begins. This model leads to the paradox of needing time to create time.
CeT-To wrote:What about the examples that ive given? clearly that make it possible that time could be independent from the physical world & dimension.
But that's not supported by any past or current observation of the physical world which say that space and time are so intimately connected that they can be said to be of the same fabric. In fact if time travel is at all possible it would not be by travelling at the speed of light or greater, it would be by bending (or folding) the curvature of space-time so that 2 points farthest apart can meet.
CeT-To wrote:I'm saying a series of mental events in God's mind like the examples ive given could initiate temporal tenses. Like the past and present. God can still be perfectly omniscient knowing everything that will happen in the past, present, future.
When you talk about a series of mental events in God's mind then you are talking about a succession of events, suggesting the passage of time. In other words, there is an instant when a mental event did not exist in God's mind, followed by an instant that it did. This kills his omniscience no matter how you cut it.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.
Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
Lol of course it's not supported by any observational evidence lol what i proposed is that time could have began at the moment God started counting down from 5 to 0 to which then he created the universe or something. LOL how can one observe that? This is more of a philosophical argument, a thought experiment.
Byblos wrote:When you talk about a series of mental events in God's mind then you are talking about a succession of events, suggesting the passage of time. In other words, there is an instant when a mental event did not exist in God's mind, followed by an instant that it did. This kills his omniscience no matter how you cut it.
Actually no, it doesnt lead to the conclusion that there was an instant where mental event did not exist in God's mind. Remember how i posited that God has had 1 thought for all eternity, He could just have another thought. But i agree i don't think its possible. Never the less my point was that it doesn't lead to God never having a thought.
Nevertheless if God were to actualise an action with a proceeding action that was not what he had been doing for eternity ( in his timeless state) then thats where time would begin. Now in my opinion God wasn't doing anything in His timeless state besides that 1 thought.
Well in A theory of time, timetravel is impossible for the fact that the past doesn't exist anymore.
But joy and happiness in you to all who seek you! Let them ceaselessly cry,"Great is Yahweh" who love your saving power. Psalm 40:16
Hey, just so you guys know, I'm going with Einsteins theory of time (well, actually general relativity) right now. Any response to my idea - that is, for God everything is happening in his now?
Btw, that would confirm that God only has one thought throughout all of eternity. Or perhaps He just has an enormous amount of thoughts all at the same moment?
The first step to learning is to admit that you don't know.
SnowDrops wrote:Hey, just so you guys know, I'm going with Einsteins theory of time (well, actually general relativity) right now. Any response to my idea - that is, for God everything is happening in his now?
Btw, that would confirm that God only has one thought throughout all of eternity. Or perhaps He just has an enormous amount of thoughts all at the same moment?
With the statement regarding thought. That's what i've proposed and if you look back to my previous comments I've stated that "idea(s)" is the content of the thought ( mental process).
So when you said this:
SnowDrops wrote:Or perhaps He just has an enormous amount of thoughts all at the same moment?
It would be that he has an enormous amount of ideas all at the same moment ( aka 1 thought - 1 mental process)
God bless!
But joy and happiness in you to all who seek you! Let them ceaselessly cry,"Great is Yahweh" who love your saving power. Psalm 40:16
SnowDrops wrote:Hey, just so you guys know, I'm going with Einsteins theory of time (well, actually general relativity) right now. Any response to my idea - that is, for God everything is happening in His now?
Btw, that would confirm that God only has one thought throughout all of eternity. Or perhaps He just has an enormous amount of thoughts all at the same moment?
With the statement regarding thought. That's what i've proposed and if you look back to my previous comments I've stated that "idea(s)" is the content of the thought ( mental process).
So when you said this:
SnowDrops wrote:Or perhaps He just has an enormous amount of thoughts all at the same moment?
It would be that he has an enormous amount of ideas all at the same moment ( aka 1 thought - 1 mental process)
God bless!
That's basically what I was thinking. But to go beyond thoughts (well, seems like that's covered), I think that while for us everything lasts a long time, to God, it literally is one moment, His now. For us, our now is a very small speck of time. Also, because of this, God actually works everywhere in our time at once.
The first step to learning is to admit that you don't know.
SnowDrops wrote:That's basically what I was thinking. But to go beyond thoughts (well, seems like that's covered), I think that while for us everything lasts a long time, to God, it literally is one moment, His now. For us, our now is a very small speck of time. Also, because of this, God actually works everywhere in our time at once.
Well imo i think time could be relative. In that sense you can imagine God is such a being higher than us that he could perform an innumerable number of things at once via his omnipotence ( and maybe his omnipresence). Since, you could say he can be almost infinitely faster & slower than his creation etc etc. Well i don't think time has got anything to do with being and working everywhere at once, His ability to be omnipresent covers that already.
But joy and happiness in you to all who seek you! Let them ceaselessly cry,"Great is Yahweh" who love your saving power. Psalm 40:16
SnowDrops wrote:That's basically what I was thinking. But to go beyond thoughts (well, seems like that's covered), I think that while for us everything lasts a long time, to God, it literally is one moment, His now. For us, our now is a very small speck of time. Also, because of this, God actually works everywhere in our time at once.
Well imo i think time could be relative. In that sense you can imagine God is such a being higher than us that he could perform an innumerable number of things at once via his omnipotence ( and maybe his omnipresence). Since, you could say he can be almost infinitely faster & slower than his creation etc etc. Well i don't think time has got anything to do with being and working everywhere at once, His ability to be omnipresent covers that already.
Yup, I'm thinking of time just like the other dimensions and since God is omnipresent He can act everywhere in time at once.
The first step to learning is to admit that you don't know.
CeT-To wrote:Lol of course it's not supported by any observational evidence lol what i proposed is that time could have began at the moment God started counting down from 5 to 0 to which then he created the universe or something. LOL how can one observe that? This is more of a philosophical argument, a thought experiment.
I understand that and that's why I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around it since to me it is an impossible idea. But let's assume for a minute that time did not begin in a singularity and time always was. We have to go back and define what time is then, if not part of the fabric of space-time. So let's say time is the rate of decay (never mind calendars and clocks and all that). If the rate of decay always was, it means there always was something to decay, which is a contradiction of the first mover. Moreover, if the rate of decay always was, it also suggests that something within God is also changing. And if something is changing then it had potentiality and if it had potentiality then it cannot be pure actuality and therefore God cannot be God. Am I totally off the mark here in understanding what you're putting forward?
CeT-To wrote:
Byblos wrote:When you talk about a series of mental events in God's mind then you are talking about a succession of events, suggesting the passage of time. In other words, there is an instant when a mental event did not exist in God's mind, followed by an instant that it did. This kills his omniscience no matter how you cut it.
Actually no, it doesnt lead to the conclusion that there was an instant where mental event did not exist in God's mind. Remember how i posited that God has had 1 thought for all eternity, He could just have another thought. But i agree i don't think its possible. Never the less my point was that it doesn't lead to God never having a thought.
Nevertheless if God were to actualise an action with a proceeding action that was not what he had been doing for eternity ( in his timeless state) then thats where time would begin. Now in my opinion God wasn't doing anything in His timeless state besides that 1 thought.
Well in A theory of time, timetravel is impossible for the fact that the past doesn't exist anymore.
I think I understand what you're saying that God somehow entered a temporal state when he created time (so time didn't really exist then) but you're still coming dangerously close to denying God's omniscience. Look at the underlined part and the bolded one within it. To me this is still suggesting that God did something at time T that he was not doing at time T - 1 so there is this notion of the passage of time with respect to God who is said to be outside of time; that's why I have issue with it. But maybe this explains how Christ as God entered a temporal world and was able to operate within it, I don't know.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.
Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
Byblos wrote:I understand that and that's why I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around it since to me it is an impossible idea. But let's assume for a minute that time did not begin in a singularity and time always was. We have to go back and define what time is then, if not part of the fabric of space-time. So let's say time is the rate of decay (never mind calendars and clocks and all that). If the rate of decay always was, it means there always was something to decay, which is a contradiction of the first mover. Moreover, if the rate of decay always was, it also suggests that something within God is also changing. And if something is changing then it had potentiality and if it had potentiality then it cannot be pure actuality and therefore God cannot be God. Am I totally off the mark here in understanding what you're putting forward?
Time could never always have been, it leads to contradictions. i think the rate of decay is only when time is applied to physical objects in the universe. One thing you are right though that we do have to define the time outside of the universe, personally i would have no clue but it doesn't mean it can't be outside.
Byblos wrote:I think I understand what you're saying that God somehow entered a temporal state when he created time (so time didn't really exist then) but you're still coming dangerously close to denying God's omniscience. Look at the underlined part and the bolded one within it. To me this is still suggesting that God did something at time T that he was not doing at time T - 1 so there is this notion of the passage of time with respect to God who is said to be outside of time; that's why I have issue with it. But maybe this explains how Christ as God entered a temporal world and was able to operate within it, I don't know.
Your first sentence is what i am saying, i don't think it denies God's omniscience at all i think you are relating God's omniscient abilities to his timelessness. Actually no, the statement " God did something at time T that he was not doing at time T - 1 so there is this notion of the passage of time with respect to God who is said to be outside of time" doesn't make sense. Consider the universe was God's first creation thus time began then that statement would also apply to this. Causal connections do not have to be within time, ( i made a post about this before concerning the heavy ball and the pillow) but when i say causal connections do not have to be in time im saying that God was Causally prior time Not Chronologically. Do you understand the difference?
God Bless!
But joy and happiness in you to all who seek you! Let them ceaselessly cry,"Great is Yahweh" who love your saving power. Psalm 40:16
CeT-To wrote:Your first sentence is what i am saying, i don't think it denies God's omniscience at all i think you are relating God's omniscient abilities to his timelessness. Actually no, the statement " God did something at time T that he was not doing at time T - 1 so there is this notion of the passage of time with respect to God who is said to be outside of time" doesn't make sense. Consider the universe was God's first creation thus time began then that statement would also apply to this. Causal connections do not have to be within time, ( i made a post about this before concerning the heavy ball and the pillow) but when i say causal connections do not have to be in time im saying that God was Causally prior time Not Chronologically. Do you understand the difference?
I think I do, yes. In that sense I have no objections to it. What I am still failing to see then is if it brings anything new to the table (in terms of a philosophycal argument). Perhaps you can restate it in those terms then? (or point me the post if you already have).
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.
Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
SnowDrops wrote:We need more words in English. The current ones are growing old .
Hahaha, i could start writing in italian if you want
Byblos wrote:
CeT-To wrote:Your first sentence is what i am saying, i don't think it denies God's omniscience at all i think you are relating God's omniscient abilities to his timelessness. Actually no, the statement " God did something at time T that he was not doing at time T - 1 so there is this notion of the passage of time with respect to God who is said to be outside of time" doesn't make sense. Consider the universe was God's first creation thus time began then that statement would also apply to this. Causal connections do not have to be within time, ( i made a post about this before concerning the heavy ball and the pillow) but when i say causal connections do not have to be in time im saying that God was Causally prior time Not Chronologically. Do you understand the difference?
I think I do, yes. In that sense I have no objections to it. What I am still failing to see then is if it brings anything new to the table (in terms of a philosophycal argument). Perhaps you can restate it in those terms then? (or point me the post if you already have).
It's not part of any philosophical argument or anything, at the begining of the topic i was just pondering on this subject and now i seem to understand it more lol thats all.
But joy and happiness in you to all who seek you! Let them ceaselessly cry,"Great is Yahweh" who love your saving power. Psalm 40:16
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