Christian Genocide

[Murray]

You just descibed the modern American Left and what the USA is heading for...

Well that is not entirely true. Think about how many blacks are Christian, and think about how many blacks voted for obama. I think the number for black Christians in America is something like 95%, its very high, and then think about the % of those who voted for obama , maybe like 85% (made up number). Then look at leftist congress, I do not know of one atheist in congress, Heck, even Barney frank is Jewish. I really doubt that our country is headed to this atheist haven we so often picture, I mean maybe the left pushes issues such as abortion that seem anti-Christian to us, but on both sides of the isle there are a large amount of folks with faith. While their are many people on the left who are christophobic, they do not make up the majority, and honestly do not pose a severe threat to our dominantly Christian nation at this time.

[B. W.]

You just descibed the modern American Left and what the USA is heading for...

Well that is not entirely true. Think about how many blacks are Christian, and think about how many blacks voted for obama. I think the number for black Christians in America is something like 95%, its very high, and then think about the % of those who voted for obama , maybe like 85% (made up number). Then look at leftist congress, I do not know of one atheist in congress, Heck, even Barney frank is Jewish. I really doubt that our country is headed to this atheist haven we so often picture, I mean maybe the left pushes issues such as abortion that seem anti-Christian to us, but on both sides of the isle there are a large amount of folks with faith. While their are many people on the left who are christophobic, they do not make up the majority, and honestly do not pose a severe threat to our dominantly Christian nation at this time.

Have you heard of Christian Communism?

Or ever heard the phrase, "the ends justify the means"?

A brief overview of Christian Communism is found here - not the best link but more unbiased than most:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism

The ends justify the means:

Modern day Neo Leftist acknowledge the need of religion and desire to change religion into a form of indoctrination – propaganda to justify socialism’s new communism. Few people have even heard of Antonio Gransci who outlined tactics of infiltration and propaganda in order to bring down existing governing systems. Forms of his ideas have crept in modern church theology in order to shape it into a secular accepted religious system friendly to new communist goals. We debate many of these here, like, hell no longer exist, Jesus taught communist thought, Jesus mere man – not God, replacement theology, Anti Israel rhetoric: To replace reliance on God with that of a ruling oligarchy (Government) system.

Ends justify the means...

Here is a little on Antonio Gransci

http://www.theory.org.uk/ctr-gram.htm
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[SnowDrops]

I stress again that you do not know what the SSSR was or exactly how it formed. America is very different from the SSSR. It is very different even from modern Russia. Why the comment about conspiracy theorists? Because nowadays in America they tend to exaggerate. The USA government today is very different from the Russian government. I cannot possibly imagine how America would become communistic. Yeah, I get it, subtle, unnoticed changes. But even so, if America would really be heading that way it would be different. The modern left may have communistic goals but even if that is the case the USA is not going to become a communistic country anytime soon. Even of 90% of Americans become atheists it still wouldn't happen, at least not anytime soon.
In the end it all comes down to this: People from the West do not know what the SSSR was like. The USA and the SSSR are not currently comparable. The modern left seems to have somewhat communistic goals, but I do not see how they would have a big impact on the USA. If the public would largely agree with the modern left and they would control much of the government then I could see something forming perhaps very vaguely similar. Right now, they are not comparable. Even Russia today is not really comparable, which most people fail to comprehend.

[Canuckster1127]

All that believed were together, and had all things in common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
(Acts 2:44-45)

There was not a needy person among them, for as many as owned lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold. They laid it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need. There was a Levite, a native of Cyprus, Joseph, to whom the apostles gave the name Barnabas (which means “son of encouragement”). He sold a field that belonged to him, then brought the money, and laid it at the apostles’ feet.
(Acts 4:34-37)

Christian Communism is based primarily on these passages. It's a mistake to look back to the first century through the lens of the 19th and 20th. The term has nothing to do with Marxism. Further, there's nothing that Biblically endorses capitalism directly as more in keeping with God's moral system. Any such argument has to be drawn by inference. Capitalism as it's promoted in the US generally has more to do with Ayn Rand's objectivism than direct Judeo-Christian values. Freedom and individual standing under God is a Biblically derived position but it's in the context of the Kingdom of God, not the Kingdom of men. The US in that regard has not assumed the former position of Israel as the standard bearer of God. Human Nationalism blending with Biblical themes is just a philosophical cocktail that has nothing to do with the Kingdom of God. My opinion anyway. I'm glad to be in the US as opposed to many other countries and locations (although the US isn't the most purely democratic and capitalistic country by any stretch.) I value the freedom's afforeded here as opposed to other locations. That could change however. Further the Kingdom of God is as present elsewhere as it is here and that's where my allegience lays.

[SnowDrops]

I don't think the Bible is very much against any political system, but people can't run any of them properly.

Jesus for president 2012 !
Well, you know... if He runs then...

[B. W.]

Political systems have not changed and doing a study on these in the bible is illuminating; often mentioned as Kings of the earth, or rulers, leaders, as well as another word whose meaning is lost in translation. One such passage is found in Psalms 2:1, 2, 3

"Why do the nations rage, And the people plot a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, And the rulers take counsel together, Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying, "Let us break Their bonds in pieces And cast away Their cords from us." NKJV

The oft misunderstood word is found in this text:

Luke 18:18-25, "Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. You know the commandments: 'DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY,' 'DO NOT MURDER,' 'DO NOT STEAL,' 'DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS,' 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER.' " And he said, "All these things I have kept from my youth." So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." But when he heard this, he became very sorrowful, for he was very rich. 24 And when Jesus saw that he became very sorrowful, He said, "How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God! 25 For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." NKJV

Note that the word ruler is connected with the word rich, thus defining who the rich are mentioned in verses 24 and 25.

When you read in your bible anti-rich passages such as James 5:1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 – the Lord is not talking about wealthy people as we have been taught and assume. Add a slash and the word powerful to James 5:1, “Come now, you rich/powerful…” and you get the point. It is the rich rulers - the rich powerful who control nations and countries and politicians the Lord has issues with. Rich and powerful rulers who exploit the poor and downtrodden to use as a political weapon to exploit funds from others all done in order to consolidate wealth, business monopolies, and unbridled power!

To illustrate this point better for we modern readers to understand - just add these names to rich in the text and you'll see what I mean...

Luke 18:18-25, "So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." But when he heard this, he became very sorrowful, for he was very rich. 24 And when Jesus saw that he became very sorrowful, He said, "How hard it is for those who have riches, (George Soros, Harry Reid, B. Obama, Saul Alinsky, Karl Marx)" to enter the kingdom of God! 25 For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man (George Soros, Harry Reid, B. Obama, Saul Alinsky, Karl Marx, the modern Left)" to enter the kingdom of God." NKJV

God is not against wealthy people but rather against those who are rich rulers who exploit and manipulate at the expense of those whom they claim to represent. Such are those mentioned in Psalms 2:1-3.

There are many wealthy people, secular and Christian who give greatly to charities, but they are not powerful or power hungry. That is the difference. Recall that Jesus was buried and resurrected in a wealthy man’s tomb. It is the lust of money – the power of its use to control and exploit for ruling power that corrupts. Apply that to the next verses and see the difference it makes regarding those who stray into such in ministry work, etc:

1 Timothy 6:9, 10c, "But those who desire to be rich (and powerful) fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows… NKJV

How many ministers get caught in the trap of the alluring lust of power/control which money brings? None of are immune.

If God blesses one with wealth, use it wisely...

When you read the supposed anti rich bible verses in the bible - please note that the Lord is speaking about those rich and powerful rulers - not all the wealthy. Abraham was wealthy and what did he do with his wealth? Jezebel was wealthy and how did she use it for power and acquire more wealth? See the difference?
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P. S. For those who like Harry Reid and B Obama or the modern Left – remember the rich young ruler was loved by Jesus and Jesus was rebuking him to repentance; likewise, you could say that Jesus was telling the rich-powerful rulers to put up or shut up in today’s vernacular parlance.

Remember – modern day class warfare techniques/propaganda seeks to rob, kill, bring to ruin i.e. destroy and does so. It pits people against each other and thus is not of God. It divides, not unifies. Since it is empirically clear that the modern class warfare techniques, organizations, and propaganda are not from God but rather from the deceiver…

[SnowDrops]

So what you're saying is that it's not about being rich, but what you do with it.

On a side note, what's wrong with Obama? He fits into your explanation somewhat, but I wouldn't say there is anything he is doing worse than practically any other politician. And as a president, same question...

[Murray]

The big problem with obama is he wants to raise and raise taxes.

Note: we have already tried to raise taxes on the rich, you know what happens? The rich hide their money and the gov get almost nothing from them so they lower the qualification for rich lower and lower until they are simply taxing the middle class, this happened under carter. Clinton taxed rich American companies, what did they do? The moved over seas, a great example of this is that yacht company that made their yachts completely and 100% in the usa, then taxed by Clinton, went to china.

Taxing the rich does not work, it only ends up taxing the middle class and destroying American business. Not to mention it is class warfare.

[SnowDrops]

The big problem with obama is he wants to raise and raise taxes.

Note: we have already tried to raise taxes on the rich, you know what happens? The rich hide their money and the gov get almost nothing from them so they lower the qualification for rich lower and lower until they are simply taxing the middle class, this happened under carter. Clinton taxed rich American companies, what did they do? The moved over seas, a great example of this is that yacht company that made their yachts completely and 100% in the usa, then taxed by Clinton, went to china.

Taxing the rich does not work, it only ends up taxing the middle class and destroying American business. Not to mention it is class warfare.

Basically, the rich cheat and the middle class ends up suffering. However, what with debt limit debates and so on the alternatives also make the middle class suffer. Makes you wonder how rich people got there in the first place.

[Murray]

The rich cannot be generalized to well. There are some who are cut throat business savages, but their are some who succeed through honesty and determination, and there are some who just inherit it. My cousin married Rockefellers great great grand daughter, they easily could have lives off her inheritance, but he did not, he made something of himself and he owns a AC company and brings in a 600k salary, gives you an idea that not all people who are rich are lazy corporate evil fat cats and some would make you think.

What obama wants to do to the rich is silly, first he eliminated 75% of charities income by eliminating donations by rich people. The rich gave insane amounts to charity to try to lower their taxes right? Obama said nope, I'm robin hood, I don’t care if you giving to the poor, I want them to them so they vote for me, so he disallowed tax cut for donating say 2 million a year to charity. Then he tries to tax these people, the same people that were donating money to AVOID higher taxes, now that being said you can assume these rich hate more tax increases, so guess what? Just open another Swiss bank account for them and watch the qualification for "rich" be lowered to 100k and let the middle get pummeled.

[Seraph]

Rich people aren't helpless victims or being punished for their success by having their tax rate slightly higher than everyone else. A rich person can be taxed a certain amount and not have their everyday financial life as negatively affected as a middle class or poor person taxed at the same rate. If rich people are getting away with tax loopholes and paying lower rates than everyone else, we should close the loopholes. Honestly, I think with our country the way it is with multiple wars and approaching the brink of defaulting on debt, revenue is going to have to be collected and taxes are going to have to go up eventually, preferably for people who can afford it. It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone and calling it a secular marxist utopia is, in my humble opinion, crazy.

I would THINK that the so-called patriots would be the ones willing to pay higher taxes in a time of national desperation, especially the rich and well-off ones. There is a problem in this country where political parties, rather than examine what will be good for the country from an open standpoint, adhere to a strict ideology with no flexibility ("No raised taxes! Ever! Under any circumstances!").

[Murray]

You cannot close the loopholes, they will just higher more lawyers and brockers and hide their money like they always do. You cannot hit them and thats the main issue. Repubs dont love fat cats, they simply know that the middle will end up get taxed just like under robin hood carter.

[Seraph]

It doesn't seem reasonable to me to base your politics on "nope, the rich are just going to get away from it, might as well not even try". They aren't an unstoppable force. If they have successfully dodged taxes in the past, the government just needs to try harder to enforce their policies.

Also if the tax on the wealthy isn't successful, theres no reason to tax the middle class instead. A solution to "the middle class will end up getting their taxes raised" is don't raise taxes on the middle class. Obama has strived to this as he hasn't raised taxes on people during his presidency who make less than 250,000$ a year. He isn't completely redistributing all wealth, he's only slightly smoothing out the curve (as it should be smoothed if we want to escape the financial recession we are in).

I think Obama's doing fine with the setting he entered into, much less dooming America.

[Murray]

They do tax the middle class however, look at carter. Lowered and lowered the qualification for being rich until he ended up just taxing the middle class, they have to do this to give the impression that the tax on the "rich" is some how successful.

[B. W.]

It doesn't seem reasonable to me to base your politics on "nope, the rich are just going to get away from it, might as well not even try". They aren't an unstoppable force. If they have successfully dodged taxes in the past, the government just needs to try harder to enforce their policies.

Also if the tax on the wealthy isn't successful, theres no reason to tax the middle class instead. A solution to "the middle class will end up getting their taxes raised" is don't raise taxes on the middle class. Obama has strived to this as he hasn't raised taxes on people during his presidency who make less than 250,000$ a year. He isn't completely redistributing all wealth, he's only slightly smoothing out the curve (as it should be smoothed if we want to escape the financial recession we are in).

I think Obama's doing fine with the setting he entered into, much less dooming America.

As it is written:

Deut 5:19 'You shall not steal.
Deut 5:20 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Deut 5:21 'You shall not covet your neighbor's wife; and you shall not desire your neighbor's house, his field, his male servant, his female servant, his ox, his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's.' NKJV

Therefore any type governmental social justice redistribution of wealth is against the Laws of God and therefore are not of God, nor cannot be. Why, because, one, they promote stealing, bearing false witness (wrongful slander of the innocent wealthy). Coveting your wealthy neighbors possession… etc...

Speaking of Christian Genocide topic, Jesus said Mat 5:21, 22c, "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.' 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire. NKJV

What I hear many on this thread saying about the innocent wealthy is indeed murder – genocide and again another violation of the Ten C’s.

It is the elite power brokers who the bible defines as rich – these are rulers and people like George Soros who play games with people’s lives to build power to dominate at the expense of actually caring for others. They exploit and deceive. Like a Black Pastor said once in a sermon – 'still waiting on my acre and a mule' used to describe how the power rulers keep people deliberately poor, but organized, so they can remain acquiring more power. Promising them liberty, never delivering that liberty, while they themselves are slave to corruption. Those are the types the bible defines rich… (rich young Ruler...)

Never hate the wealthy, nor covet, or be used by power brokers to rid the world of competition in order to monopolize all societal good and services to their personal control all enforced by a willing Government subservient to them. Too many good Christians are being duped to break the moral commands of the Lord in seeking to stick it to the wealthy. Please avoid this trap. So – do you have Genocide (hate-Murder) in your heart toward the wealthy? Jesus enjoined hate with murder and what is genocide except murder of many, and what of hate of the wealthy then?

Jesus and the bible said you'll know a tree by its fruit, known by what comes forth from the heart to the mouth, and be careful of the company one keeps. These help define a person and true motives. Obama's own words betray him - constant class-warfare is evil and a breach of the moral laws of God. May the fruit of his lips and that of the Left not come to pass fore I hate the thought of Americans actually killing each other because of the rhetoric of class warfare played too far...for the benefit of the power elites…
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