Something I desperately need to know...

[jlay]

In fact free will would include our ability to go against our instincts. Bravery is one of the best examples that comes to mind.
Pets and some wild animals will often do things that we interpret like human emotion or action. There is really little way to know for sure, but I don't think an animal exhibiting such signs proves or disproves anything.

[neo-x]

Just curious how you differentiate will from free will. If a dog is observed doing the above you ascribed it to will, would a human displaying similar behaviour be due to free will or merely will? Does the dog have a degree of freedom in regards to will in the above example and if we establish a scale is the free will of humanity on par with that of God, if not then it doesn't seem that it is free will, it's more the master bestowing a lesser degree of freedom than that which the master has on the subjects created in the masters image.

The free speech thing threw me a little as I see free speech as the right to express opinions without fear of punishment. For the record I'm not an advocate of free speech and nether are most people, forums, governments etc. There are limitations imposed. Free will on the other hand is the right to do what you want as long as you accept eternal punishment is one the cards.

We think of speech as free when it is devoid of punishment and will as free when we have faith it will in many cases lead to the most severe punishment imaginable.

There is very little we know of the animal psychology despite our tremendous amount of efforts..So an animal acting out of ordinary while doesn't prove anything, it certainly raises some questions...Will is what animal wants to do and free will to an animal is just the same but not in the human way...when an animal goes against instinct, the event must be a reaction but depending on how much the animal is reasoning or calculating, it must involve some intelligence , awareness, not equated to human intelligence but they are not certainly programmed organic robots..there must be free will but might not be the same as with humans, may be limited. but to say that there is none, leaves some serious questions unanswered.

ps: I am not saying that all animals may have these traits, they may have, they may not, it is impossible to prove scientifically. But there is something more than just instinct, that I am sure about, or at least I like to be.

God bless

[Proinsias]

A little reminiscent of the old koan "Does a cow have the Buddha nature", pretty much impossible to answer definitely but nonetheless worthwhile contemplating.

Will is what animal wants to do and free will to an animal is just the same but not in the human way

So the same but different.....I agree!

when an animal goes against instinct, the event must be a reaction but depending on how much the animal is reasoning or calculating, it must involve some intelligence , awareness, not equated to human intelligence

The problem is also in a large part what we class as instinctual behaviour, is there a possibility of describing reasoning and calculating as an instinctual?

"Found this BBC article quite interesting:
It is a tough question, says Juliet Gardener, author of The Animals' War. Talk about the bravery of animals in war is more a case of anthropomorphism, where human attributes are given to an animal, she says.

"We know the animals are involved in a man-made war. They don't want to be there, but have no choice. We talk of them being brave because we are the ones making them suffer. It makes us feel better. "

Interesting stuff but this could also apply to Generals sending into troops to battle.

And lastly a favourite quote from Marc Breedlove:
"There is a reason why I don't talk much about free will. I love the old idea that if I were to pick up a rock and throw it, and if the rock were to suddenly become conscious half way in its trajectory, it would think to itself, "Oh, I think I'll go over there." I think asking people why they do things is a lousy way of finding out why, even if they are being completely honest. I think that psychological research makes it clear that people often aren't aware of the influences on their behavior."

[KravMagaSelfDefense]

Hey there new to God and science, but I'm going to get to the point quick. I want to know where I could go to learn more about science in general, what books, what things I need to learn. I can't go around trying to preach the word, saying there is a scientific fact behind God, and my only knowledge being quotes from the main site. So yeah where's a place, website book or forum I can learn all about science in general. Reason being is I want to bring this news to the world, but for sure atheists are going to come out with counter evidence(excuses) against an argument for God. I already have introduced an atheists to this site, and he immediately called this site retarded. My second question is how do I respond to this .

"that site is honestly retarded. anti matter and matter only annihalate when they come into contact, and the rest of them are all based on the fact that everything is just right for life, and everything happens to be present in order for life to continue when people cant just accept that it was billions of years of coincidences that brang life. not some fairy tale about a man in the clouds."

I then asked him why he thought this site was retarded and kindly asked him to stop bashing religion as he was talking to a christian he then responded with this.

"i think its retarded because it takes very generalized scientific facts, repeats them and then takes whatever is unknown about them and says god did it. i bash religion as its retarded.;"


I sent him another question:
"Ok now answer my other question, are you the type of atheists that believes in the possibility in a God and/or Gods, or do you absolutely believe there is no God and/or Gods. Another question is excactly how much did you read ?" He hasn't answered yet but I would want to know what you all think of this little conversation so far. I know there isn't a one way ticket to learning about science, physics, math and things like that., And that they take years upon years to master. But I would like to see some resources like websites,books, forums, anything like that. Thanks people.







Edit:I'm 17, in highschool and failing miserably so I won't be able to make it to a university anytime soon.

"I sent him another question:"

Is this an online debate, perhaps via some sort of comment mechanism? I've tried that before and trust me, being anonymous brings out the worst in people. They hold the delusion that they have no accountability, no obligation to be polite, for the simple reason that they can't be identified and reprimanded. So if this is an online debate, take very much care in speaking to this guy, sounds like he's not really the sort of person you can have a rational discussion, almost a "troll," if you will. In which case you need to say, "It's been good chatting with you," and walk away. You're not going to change his mind online.
But that's not to say that he doesn't deserve a reply. His allegation that theism takes what is unknown about science and lazily says "god did it" is itself quite lazy, it's a very common argument and one atheists often resort to when they have nothing else to say. It's also quite silly. It is like saying that a Shakespeare play came from the explosion of a printing factory, because to say that someone wrote it is to "take what is unknown about the text and say 'an author did it'."
It's nonsense. There will never be a Godless, secular explanation for why the ratio of electromagnetism to gravity is one in ten to the forty, or why the probability of the simplest cell "just happening" is four times less probable than what statisticians label as mathematically impossible.
It's these times where there is no other option than to hypothesize some sort of author. The fact that he applies the ridiculous "God-of-the-Gaps" accusation reveals a lack of scientific awareness about these facts. For example, there is a post in the "God and Science" category called "Polonium Radiohalos," check out the link and send it to him and see how he responds. I am betting he'll have no response but "religion is retarded." Take care and good luck, sir.