Salvation

[DannyM]

The words you used were,

Repent means to recognise, to be remorseful for your sins.
It’s a realisation of, coupled with a determination to turn from, sin

My initial thought and 2nd reading wouldn't lead me to conclude that this was describing metaneo.

J, I've already conceded that definition was an unnecessary expansion on ‘to change one’s mind’, which I consider to be the simple definition of repent

metanoēte

to change one's mind or purpose

http://biblelexicon.org/luke/13-3.htm

I’m saying this is how I see repent and am trying to glean from you whether or not you think that is acceptable

you get me, bro?

[B. W.]

Also repentance. Probably the most misunderstood word in the Christian terminology. Probably the best paper I have read on the subject is here. I would strongly encourage everyone to read this in its entireity. http://www.cocoris.com/Topical%20Pages/ ... %20PDF.pdf

My experience is that the word has been redefined to mean, "turn from sin, have guilt for sin, or forsaking of sin." This simply isn't consistent with how the word metaneo was defined and used in the NT. It has to do with the mind, and belief. To give up one way of thinking and to embrace a new way. That is to change one's mind.

I have been following this thread and for this type of subject you all shown great respect for each other! Awesome!!!!

And the article Jlay posted is one of the best on this matter I have read as well so thanks for sharing this J

Very good post!
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[jlay]

I apologize Danny, i don't know if I'm following the question. Can you be more specific? I am blonde.

[DannyM]

I apologize Danny, i don't know if I'm following the question. Can you be more specific? I am blonde.

Don't worry I've read the paper. Pretty damn good, and totally in line with my basic undertstanding of repent

Repent means to recognise, to be remorseful for your sins.
It’s a realisation of, coupled with a determination to turn from, sin

My only mistake here seems to be "to be remorseful for..."

Otherwise, and depending on the context in which metaneo is used, 'to change one's mind' can certainly entail a "recognition," a "realisation," and a "determination to turn from"... in fact I can see how "to be remorseful for" would practically follow from metaneo

but this is minor and I'm glad we're on the same page

[jlay]

Thanks Danny,

I do not see that the word metaneo in itself as a statement about how one feels regarding their sin, or their determination to turn from it. Yes, the remorse may follow from it, or it might even lead to it. For example, when JTB, and Jesus preached, they preached, repent for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand. I do not think this is a statement about sin, as the law was already working that. But a call to give up an old system to embrace a new.

One can be remorseful for their sin, and still not turn to faith in Christ. In fact I have seen this in prison ministry. People who have tons of guilt for their life choices, yet reject the gift of Christ because they don't trust that Christ is able to forgive them. They may believe in God, and even in the historical Jesus, yet reject the grace that God offers through Christ. They need to repent. Change their mind, that times of refreshing may come.

[DannyM]

Thanks J

I do not see that the word metaneo in itself as a statement about how one feels regarding their sin, or their determination to turn from it. Yes, the remorse may follow from it, or it might even lead to it. For example, when JTB, and Jesus preached, they preached, repent for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand. I do not think this is a statement about sin, as the law was already working that. But a call to give up an old system to embrace a new

I see what you mean. That’s very clear when I think about it. As the paper says, there are different contexts in which metaneo is used, and I think in the context above you are absolutely right.

One can be remorseful for their sin, and still not turn to faith in Christ. In fact I have seen this in prison ministry. People who have tons of guilt for their life choices, yet reject the gift of Christ because they don't trust that Christ is able to forgive them. They may believe in God, and even in the historical Jesus, yet reject the grace that God offers through Christ. They need to repent. Change their mind, that times of refreshing may come

That people are remorseful for their sin only tells me they know God

But I think you’re right that, in the context of sin, metaneo does not imply a remorsefulness. So I’ll drop ‘remorseful’ now

[jlay]

That people are remorseful for their sin only tells me they know God

Consider 2 Cor. 7:10

Guilt is not reserved for those who know God. Atheist can and do experience remorse. They can love their families, and feel remorse if they harm them.

Many religious cultures accept the idea of sin, and invent many ways to 'deal' with sin, that exclude trusting Christ.

[DannyM]

That people are remorseful for their sin only tells me they know God

Consider 2 Cor. 7:10

Guilt is not reserved for those who know God. Atheist can and do experience remorse. They can love their families, and feel remorse if they harm them.

Christians are sinners and recognise this fact. Atheists have a serious problem with the concept of sin.

Many religious cultures accept the idea of sin, and invent many ways to 'deal' with sin, that exclude trusting Christ.

Sure. They’ve just misidentified God.

[Noah1201]

Dear, did you just say atheists are incapable of feeling guilt? Wow.

[DannyM]

Dear, did you just say atheists are incapable of feeling guilt? Wow.

Who me? No, I did not say that.

[Noah1201]

Here you say:

That people are remorseful for their sin only tells me they know God

Implying that people who do not 'know God' cannot be remorseful.

If I misunderstood you, I apologize.

[DannyM]

Here you say:

That people are remorseful for their sin only tells me they know God

Implying that people who do not 'know God' cannot be remorseful.

If I misunderstood you, I apologize.

What is ‘sin’ to someone who doesn’t know God?

[jlay]

OK, let's back up just a little, and make sure our terms are the same. You said that a person who is remorseful for their sin knows God. When you say, know, are you saying that means they are saved, or that they know about God?

Yes, Christians are sinners and recognize the fact. I would say that is a central tenet. No disagreement there. But what I read from your post implies to me that remorse for sins is mutually exclusive to Christians. Maybe you are right. But, that hasn't necessarily been a position I agree with. If so, I would like to get some doctrinal support to examine the position.
A question it brings up. If a Christian is the only one who can have remorse for sin, then how does one become a Christian? Are they saved first, and then have remorse? If remorse proceeds conversion, then technically, one is not yet a Christian. And, can one not feel remorse yet reject the provision of salvation? It also makes we wonder how much remorse one would have to feel to qualify.

Too me this gets back to 'what is salvation?' Is it just accepting that Jesus died and rose. Or is it applying this event personally to our lives through faith in it. That not only did the cross and the resurrection happen, but that my life is utterly dependent upon it for forgiveness, justification and grace. And that I would "receive" Christ. (john 1:12) This is why I mentioned the prisoner scenario. One I've seen many times. That being that there is no objection to God, specifically the God of the Bible. And none towards the claims of Christ. And even the awareness and remorse that their life is depraved and deserving of Hell. But still the refusal to trust that Christ's actions are sufficient to save.

I'm not saying that there wont be remorse for sins. not at all. Just wondering if it is mutually exclusive to a convert, and incapable for others. I definitely think God can and does work in a person to reveal the nature of sin, and the reality of needing a savior. In that way one can truly receive Christ as savior. How much remorse is manifested in this process for each person, I do not know.

What is ‘sin’ to someone who doesn’t know God?

Someone can not be a believer and yet understand sin. I would say, even a biblical concept of sin. In fact every believer was at one time not a believer. They came to understand sin. In fact Paul says the essence of the law is written on the human heart. A child who can't even speak will sneak to steal a cookie, because they KNOW it is wrong. The attributes of God are clearly seen.

Every culture will speak to an innate standard. The thought that there is a goodness to aspire to and evils to avoid.

[DannyM]

Jlay

To truly understand you're sinner is to know God. I wouldn't have thought you'd have any problem with this

Atheists feel guilt, remorse etc but they don't believe they are sinners any more than they believe they are 'fallen'

[jlay]

Of course an atheist doesn't. No God equals no sin. Not everyone who isn't a Christian is an atheist. It would seem that your position permits only two choices. Christianity or atheism.

Does my example fail to explain someone who knows they are a sinner, yet may not be saved?