The Priest and the Atheist

[jlay]

Wheels
Have you had to stone anyone recently for violating the Sabbath?

[BavarianWheels]

Wheels
Have you had to stone anyone recently for violating the Sabbath?

Just myself.
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[waynepii]

No - but where does The Bible say these laws apply only to Israelites?

Oh come on Wayne, I thought you said you read through the bible twice. Did you just have one eye open?

Exodus 19:3 (right before He gave the Law)
Then Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain and said, "This is what you are to say to the house of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: 4 'You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites."

vs 8The people all responded together, "We will do everything the LORD has said." So Moses brought their answer back to the LORD.


Exodus 20:22
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Tell the Israelites this:

I was under the (apparently mistaken) impression that there is one God for everyone. Does He expect different things from different peoples at different times?

Who decided that while Lev 20:13 is still in effect, the penalty has changed?

God did.
Homosexuality is still a sin, as is lying, coveting, and fornication.
1 Tim 1:9-10
1 cor 6:9-10

Well Paul considered it a sin, anyway.

"You" (collectively) claim there is an objective morality, but it seems to me that to "read" this "objective" morality, it must be interpreted by humans. To me, an objective morality that requires interpretation, feelings, or "knowing" results in a perception of the objective morality that is no longer objective. I am NOT rejecting the idea that an objective morality exists. But, IMO having to observe the objective morality through the flawed lens of personal experience, intuition, prejudice, and preferences distorts the objective morality into a highly personal view of morality.

I can see how someone who does not have the counselor to teach them would feel this way. In fact the Bible says such.
Apply that same standard to math, and then tell that to your Calculus instructor.
There are facts of math that I do not know or understand. But they are knowable and teachable.
You confess your own lens is flawed. So perhaps so is your reasoning.

Mathematics (yes, even calculus) is based on definitive, logical proofs. These proofs can be repeated, tested, and verified by anyone. People use mathematical rules to make predictions every day and the results verify the predictions - the GPS computes its position within a few feet of its actual location, the new ship floats when it slides down the way and hits the water, the artillery shell hits its target, the space shuttle docks with Hubble, etc. True, it is possible to use a mathematical formula without understanding the underlying derivation (using "faith" in the formula's veracity, if you will), but there is no requirement for faith - anyone who wants to can repeat the derivation. In fact, the study of mathematics (and physics, and many other sciences) involves deriving pertinent formulae so each formula is both known and understood by the student.

Did God change His mind as to what He expected from people (in which case, was He "infallible")? Or did men's view of what He wanted change?

It is all part of the same plan.

He planned to change His mind?

Although we are not under the Law there is a very important thing we can learn from this. That God sees sin much more seriously than you or I do. That God is absolutely intolerant of sin. So, although we do not observe those laws, we can still learn from them. We can learn that under the old covenant, that God has strict, unwavering rules they were to follow.

I wonder if this is a conclusion of your own, or did you just read it on a pro-Christian site, book, or in a sermon?

I read it in the Bible. It is obvious and reasonable.

??? (See several of the previous discussions quoted in this post)

Simple question. "If" God is real, based on the Bible alone, what is His position on sin? Now remember I am only saying "if" He is real.

a) tolerates it
b) dislikes it
c) abhors it beyond what we can comprehend.
d) indifferent

The answer is c), the author(s) of The Bible clearly abhorred those acts and practices He/they considered sin.

Some of my questions are:

• How do you prove He wrote, or more accurately, caused to be written on His behalf, every word of every verse of every book of The Bible?
• Why did God rely on "ghost writers"?
• Why do different (present-day) religions use different collections of books in their "Bibles"?

Much of my doubt concerning a divine origin of The Bible has to do with the fact The Bible has man's "fingerprints" all over it.

[jlay]

He planned to change His mind?

He planned to fulfill the Law through the Messiah.

I was under the (apparently mistaken) impression that there is one God for everyone. Does He expect different things from different peoples at different times?

Wayne, if you have actually read the bible you would already know this.
Did God expect Adam and Even to follow the levitical laws? No. They had one rule. "Don't eat of that tree."

Obviously, God had a covenant with the Israelites. He expected specific things from Israel. These aren't issues that require

Some of my questions are:

How do you prove He wrote, or more accurately, caused to be written on His behalf, every word of every verse of every book of The Bible? You have been offered numerous examples, and been given suggestions to pursue this investigation, and have rejected them. Why did God rely on "ghost writers"? God has used and worked through man. Just as He saved the whole world through a man, Jesus. If you read Exodus you will discover that the people had the chance to hear from God directly, but they begged Moses to go and be the messenger.
Why do different (present-day) religions use different collections of books in their "Bibles"? You will have to be more specific hereMuch of my doubt concerning a divine origin of The Bible has to do with the fact The Bible has man's "fingerprints" all over it.

The math text book has man's fingerprints all over it. But you can test it and know whether it is true of false. As you can the Bible. John 14:21 is an invitation to test the waters and see. But my guess is you love your sin too much to see.
Your issue is not intelligence. Your issue is your conscience. You have sinned against a holy God. A God that you admit hates sin beyond your comprehension. A God that sees your lies, not just as little goof ups, but outright wickedness of a rebellious soul. And because that, His wrath is against you. Listen to your conscience. For every question that is answered there will be another. That is why no answer will satisfy. You admit you are a liar, and God's word says, all liars will have their place in the lake of fire. You are blinded from the truth because of your sin. You have tried to justify your goodness, just as the bible predicted you would. You have seen the bible read your mail, yet you have rejected this truth as well.
Every day is a day that you inch closer to eternity. You are literally being shoved closer to a cliff that we will all have to jump from one day. When you pass from this life into eternity, you will clearly see how the God of this universe has spoken to your conscience, through His word, and through His people. And yet, you have ignored. You will be without excuse. If our eyes should meet on that day, I can say that I am free of your blood. I have told you the truth. That you are a sinner, dead in your sins, and that you will stand before the uncompromising Holiness of your creator. You boast that you have read through His word twice, yet you have missed even the most basic truths. I would be careful of this. Repent of your pride and hard heartedness. Repent and believe. Eternity is a long time to be wrong.

[waynepii]

He planned to change His mind?

He planned to fulfill the Law through the Messiah.

I was under the (apparently mistaken) impression that there is one God for everyone. Does He expect different things from different peoples at different times?

Wayne, if you have actually read the bible you would already know this.
Did God expect Adam and Even to follow the levitical laws? No. They had one rule. "Don't eat of that tree."

OK, so God's expectations DO change over time.

Obviously, God had a covenant with the Israelites. He expected specific things from Israel. These aren't issues that require

(???) You seem to have forgotten to finish this.

Some of my questions are:

• How do you prove He wrote, or more accurately, caused to be written on His behalf, every word of every verse of every book of The Bible? You have been offered numerous examples, and been given suggestions to pursue this investigation, and have rejected them.
  I didn't "reject" them, I simply didn't find them very convincing. Most were circular arguments of one form or another
• Why did God rely on "ghost writers"? God has used and worked through man. Just as He saved the whole world through a man, Jesus.
  I know that's what He's said to have done, the question was "why did He choose to do it that way?" Why would an omnipotent, all-knowing god use so imperfect a means of communicating His wishes to His flock?
  If you read Exodus you will discover that the people had the chance to hear from God directly, but they begged Moses to go and be the messenger.
  IMO The Israelites asked Moses to be the messenger to get rid of him for a while . Why would God be constrained by men's poor choice forevermore?
• Why do different (present-day) religions use different collections of books in their "Bibles"? You will have to be more specific here

Much of my doubt concerning a divine origin of The Bible has to do with the fact The Bible has man's "fingerprints" all over it.

The math text book has man's fingerprints all over it. But you can test it and know whether it is true of false.

Yep. And a human did, in fact write it.

As you can the Bible. John 14:21 is an invitation to test the waters and see.

So to "test" The Bible is believable, you have to believe in The Bible? That is a classic case of circular reasoning.

But my guess is you love your sin too much to see.

Just what is this "sin" you suppose I love so much?

Your issue is not intelligence. Your issue is your conscience. You have sinned against a holy God. A God that you admit hates sin beyond your comprehension. A God that sees your lies, not just as little goof ups, but outright wickedness of a rebellious soul. And because that, His wrath is against you. Listen to your conscience. For every question that is answered there will be another. That is why no answer will satisfy. You admit you are a liar, and God's word says, all liars will have their place in the lake of fire. I admitted to having lied "on occasion", and AIR you admitted that you had as well You are blinded from the truth because of your sin. You have tried to justify your goodness, just as the bible predicted you would. The only reason I "justified my goodness" was to object to blanket characterizations of atheists as "incapable" of being moral or being unwilling and/or unable to give up my "wicked" life were I to find tangible evidence You have seen the bible read your mail, yet you have rejected this truth as well.
Every day is a day that you inch closer to eternity. You are literally being shoved closer to a cliff that we will all have to jump from one day. When you pass from this life into eternity, you will clearly see how the God of this universe has spoken to your conscience, through His word, and through His people. And yet, you have ignored. You will be without excuse. If our eyes should meet on that day, I can say that I am free of your blood. I have told you the truth. That you are a sinner, dead in your sins, and that you will stand before the uncompromising Holiness of your creator. You boast that you have read through His word twice, yet you have missed even the most basic truths. I would be careful of this. Repent of your pride and hard heartedness. Repent and believe. Eternity is a long time to be wrong.

Thanks for the sermon. Do I detect some "first stones" being cast? I wonder how God feels about all the judging and fire and brimstone being hurled in His name.

Do you really think He is so petulant as to view with "wrath" people like myself whose God-given reason has led us to have serious doubts about His existence, largely due to the lack of tangible evidence. Evidence that He could have easily provided but apparently chose not to. Yet in spite of doubts about His existence, most of us atheists and agnostics manage to lead quite moral lives, not from fear of "eternal damnation" but just because it is the "right" thing to do.

FWIW I was raised Christian. I was quite devout into early adulthood, and seriously considered going into the clergy for a while. However, as I gained experience and delved deeper into religious studies, I was troubled by some things that didn't make sense. As I tried to quell my growing doubts, I encountered not answers but yet more inconsistencies. I guess I've been a "closet agnostic" for much of my adult life. A few friends are "born again" Christians, and I came here to try to understand their fervor (I hesitate to ask them because I value their friendship too much to risk having them think I want to be converted (I don't), to talk them out of their fervor (I don't), or to somehow be seen as belittling their beliefs (I wouldn't )).

[jlay]

OK, so God's expectations DO change over time.

That is a horribly inadequate summation. God's expectations didn't change. They were fufilled. If you had actually read the bible as you claim, then you would already know this.

So to "test" The Bible is believable, you have to believe in The Bible? That is a classic case of circular reasoning.

I can prove to you that bible is reliable and beleivable in a number of areas. This scripture is a spiritual test. Obey God with your whole heart and He will reveal the truth of who He is. Could it be that you do not want to obey?

FWIW I was raised Christian. I was quite devout into early adulthood, and seriously considered going into the clergy for a while. However, as I gained experience and delved deeper into religious studies, I was troubled by some things that didn't make sense.

Devout. Sure. Let me guess. Roman Catholic? (for others, please not this is not an attack on the RCC)

And your knowledge of the simplest things in the Bible prove that is not true. You weren't even aware that God had a specific and distinct covenant with Israel. You may have been religious by modern standards, but religion is nothing. Religion is the opiate of the masses. If you were religious, it is no wonder you were doubting and in the place you are now. You were probably well saturated in religious ceremony and the coverings of piety, but you were dead within. You had not been born from above. I can say this with certainty because the questions you ask expose the truth underneath. Some of the questions you ask demonstrate that you have not sincerely pursued answers. You weren't even familiar with Mere Christianity, one of the most profound works in modern Christianity, by one of the worlds most famous authors. What you feed grows, and what you starve dies. You have fed doubt, which I suspect was your desire as a closet agnostic.

Just what is this "sin" you suppose I love so much?

Based on our conversations I can say that it is the 1st command. You have never loved God with your whole heart. You are your own God. You serve and are a slave to those desires of doubt. You have resisted and rejected the glimmers of light only to pursue darkness. And it seems to me you are exactly where you want to be. You like the doubts. You feed the doubts. Your proud of your closet agnosticsim. What an even worse crime to misuse the scriptures to try and justify yourself and your rebellion.

Thanks for the sermon. Do I detect some "first stones" being cast? I wonder how God feels about all the judging and fire and brimstone being hurled in His name.

Your own words judge you. I haven't judged anything unjustly or without the proper measure. I have made observations based on your own statements and answers. You have confessed what the God of the bible would judge in regards to sin. You have confessed by your own word that you are a liar. The atheist's favorite bible verse is "judge not", but this misuse of the verse only further demonstrates their attempts to justify themselves. It is further evidence of your conscience working within you. You can either be convinced a sinner and humble yourself, or you can react in pride, just as you have.

most of us atheists and agnostics manage to lead quite moral lives, not from fear of "eternal damnation" but just because it is the "right" thing to do.

Pride. Once again you demonstrate the truth of the bible in that is prophecies that you will try to justify yourself as being good. And I am sure, compared to many other people, you are. But that is not the standard God will judge you with. Fear of the right things is healthy. If you had to jump out of an airplane at 10,000 feet, and I offered you one million dollars, or a parachute, which one would you take? Your fear of the jump to come, would appropriately guide you towards the right choice. Only a fool would say, "you are just trying to scare me into taking the parachute." You are consciously aware of your mortality. And you are consciously aware that the God of the Bible hates lies. You are aware that the bible reveals a God who is intolerant of sin in any degree. You are aware of the claims of John 14:21.

So, if the God of the Bible were to judge you by His standard, would you be innocent or guilty?

[qqMOARpewpew]

Sorry, but if we need a creator, our creator does too. If god could create itself, or have once existed outside of time-space, why couldn't that be true of the universe.

[jlay]

qq,

Thanks for posting on the board. There are many folks here to help you get answers to these questions. We often get new people and just about always you get these exact same questions. No problem. The main board addresses these questions. I suggest you spend some time there and study up on the forum rules.
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... K4ZCULQPrb

Plopping questions in on random old threads is not a way to be taken seriously. And I assure you that we want to help those who have sincere questions, and want to take them most seriously. But we also want to quickly let those who only have antagonistic motives know where they stand.