Shroud of Turin

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
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bippy123
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Re: Shroud of Turin

Post by bippy123 »

I was going through some of my old research , and found some of the work done by Doctor August Accetta of the shroud center of Southern California. It seems like his work so far has come closest to explaining a few(not all) of the unique aspects of the shroud image. I cant believe I forgot about it. I believe he was also a member of the sturp team as well.
I have to plan a visit to the shroud center of Southern california soon as its about an hour and a half drive for me. I would highly recommend a visit to this place if anyone lives close by. I believe its free of Charge to visit the museum there but dont quote me on this lol.

I wouldnt recommend doing this at home folks because he injected himself with Nuclear Radioactive particles (very dangerous) as part of his hunch about the shroud.

Accetta was baptized a Catholic but became an agnostic during his his adult years because he thought Christianity was something used to make people less fearfull of death.The shroud was the stepping stone that brought him back to christianity along with researching early Christian history. Another amazing story.

Listen up Ivellious :mrgreen: Doctor August Accetta has 4 PEER REVIEWED PAPERS ON THE SHROUD OF TURIN
Compared to Joe Nickells BIG FAT ZERO
Compared to Walter Mccrone's BIG FAT ZERO


Some of this stuff is way beyond my understanding, but the conclusions are fascinating and they have to do with some form of light coming straight out of the body of Jesus at the point of his resurrection.

http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/accett2.pdf

NUCLEAR MEDICINE AND ITS RELEVANCE
TO THE SHROUD OF TURIN
August D. Accetta MD, Kenneth Lyons MD, John Jackson PhD.
Hypothesis: If indeed a corpse created the image we see on the Shroud, then the source for the
energy received by the cloth may be from the molecular bond energy and/or nuclear forces within
the body in some way interacting with the cloth. The closest practical tool we have to study this
today is nuclear medicine.
Keywords: STURP: Shroud of Turin Research Project, Tc-99m MDP: Technesium-99 metastable
methylene diphosphate, V-P-8: Vertical projection photodensitometer.
Introduction: The Turin Shroud bears an image of an apparent crucified man, chemically the
result of some dehydrative, oxidative, and subsequent carbonyl conjugative process of cellulose,
the origin of which is heretofore enigmatic.
1
Many properties of the Shroud are however under-stood quite well. For example, it is clearly understood through the work of STURP and others
that the Shroud did in fact wrap someone at some point in time and that it is not the product of
some medieval artist.
2
The Shroud image suggests quite strongly the presence of many skeletal details e.g. carpal and
metacarpal bones, some 22 teeth, eye sockets, left femur, left and possibly right thumbs flexed
under the palms of the hands, as well as soft tissue and soft tissue injuries; all presumably originat-ing from some form of radiation emitted from the body enshrouded.
3
No scientific human model has been satisfactorily utilized to offer elucidation of the origin of this
quality an image. Many have postulated image formation theories e.g. Pellicori-Germans “latent
image” and Jackson et al direct contact experiments which he concluded had quite negative
results and have effectively been ruled out.
4
Others have suggested diffusion.
5
Schwalbe and
Rojers however, failed in the properties not limited to sharpness and clarity of the image.
6
Later
researchers such as Giles Carter and Thaddeus Trenn have studied radiation biology in a theoreti-cal framework and have achieved promising results in terms of image superficiality and clarity.
7
The human radiation model seems to offer the greatest application to the Shroud image thus far.



Im gonna skip over the method Doctor Accetta used as its too technical for me, and I will skip to the conclusions in the similarities they found between his tests and the shroud image.

First we demonstrated that a human model can be used to generate images resulting from emitted
radiation, that resemble the image on the Shroud. (see fig. 1)


Second we demonstrated that this radiation when captured by a vertical collimator can yield the
verticality parallel seen on the Turin image.
Third we demonstrated that the nature of the emitted radiation is such that it produces an image
void of a sharp outline such as that on the Turin Shroud. (see fig. 2)


Fourth we demonstrated that the resulting radiation image is void of any light focus such as the
Shroud. (see fig. 3)



Fifth, due to the nature of the collimator, no side images are observed though the radiation is
being emitted circumferentially. (see fig. 3)

Sixth, the fact that soft tissues, skeletal information, as well as pathology in these tissues, can all
be imaged concomitantly using the nuclear medicine model, demonstrates the parallel to the
Shroud where the same is observed. (see fig. 4)


Seventh we demonstrated that the thumb flexed under the palms of the left and right hands can be
imaged, (precluding the need of any so called contact method), which parallels the Shroud. In
addition, the V-P-8 image of the hands demonstrate the underlying thumb similar to that of the
Shroud.(see fig. 5)


Eighth we demonstrated that the nature of the emitted radiation was volumetric in that the image
generated had higher density shading (higher number of pixels) towards the center or midline of
extremities, digits, and torso, then fell off in intensity laterally. This differential dosimetry should
and in fact does yield a Z-axis relief (or isometric projection) when scanned by V-P-8
photodensitometer. (see fig. 6)


Ninth, isometric projection (V-P-8) of our generated images, yielded a striking similarity to the V-P-8 image of the Shroud at the fall off of the left fingers. Knowing this is due to a 75-80% drop
in signal intensity on our image, its relevance to the same phenomenon on the Shroud should not
be overlooked and seriously considered to be a function of a similar effect i.e. a dosimetric sudden
fall off of signal or radiation. (see fig. 7)




SUMMARY
The radiation model described in this study characterized much of what we see in the Shroud
image in terms of the behavior of radiation being emitted from a human source. We believe the
nuclear medicine model is the best currently available to aid in our understanding of the Shroud
image. We feel our results effectively demonstrated plausibly that the Shroud image resulted from
an organized emission and/or organized collection of radiation from the body and/or cloth respec-tively
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Re: Shroud of Turin

Post by PaulSacramento »

Facinating stuff, truly.
I must say that the more I read up on this the more I am becoming a believer.
Can I ask something?
Is there a detailed website to pdf or anything that I can get that shows the skeptics issues and what they are using to show that it is a fake and how these viewes and "evidence" have been shown to be false?
In other words, a detailed summary of answers to the critics?
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Re: Shroud of Turin

Post by bippy123 »

PaulSacramento wrote:Facinating stuff, truly.
I must say that the more I read up on this the more I am becoming a believer.
Can I ask something?
Is there a detailed website to pdf or anything that I can get that shows the skeptics issues and what they are using to show that it is a fake and how these viewes and "evidence" have been shown to be false?
In other words, a detailed summary of answers to the critics?
I used to have a few of those saved in my old files before my hard drive crashed Paul, but I will check over the weekend again to see if I could find them online again.
it's funny you mention this Paul, as I was on a shroud forum where an atheist that claims he is a scientist says that be could make a copy of a shroud with a statue and a few simple Tools, and when the forum members asked him why he won't try it, his reply was he didn't feel like it loooooooooool.
Plus even the atheist organizations that have tried to debunk the shroud in the past aren't even giving him the time of day, yet he is still there arguing that he could do it.
I just love to see what the shroud does to atheists hehe
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Re: Shroud of Turin

Post by bippy123 »

Kind of off topic but very much related. I found this 1927 silent movie clip of the resurrection .
I love the golden oldies. This scene brought tears to my eyes:)
Enjoy folks


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EW1IT-A ... ata_player
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Re: Shroud of Turin

Post by bippy123 »

bippy123 wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Facinating stuff, truly.
I must say that the more I read up on this the more I am becoming a believer.
Can I ask something?
Is there a detailed website to pdf or anything that I can get that shows the skeptics issues and what they are using to show that it is a fake and how these viewes and "evidence" have been shown to be false?
In other words, a detailed summary of answers to the critics?

OK Paul here are a few links to start you off on.
http://www.historian.net/shroud.htm
There are some thing I wouldnt use here as part of my debates on the shroud as far as answering critics but the majority is excellent. This link is from research done between 1977 and 1989 in the journal of The Archaeological Institute of America, San Diego, Vol 1, No. 10 (Sept 1997); No. 11 (Dec 1977); No. 12 (March 1998).

It has an excellent section on the hungarian pray codex which by itself destroys the c14 dating test on the shroud, and it even has the illustration found in the pray codex so u can see it for urself. It is without a doubt a picture of the shroud.

They didnt go into great detail of debunking Walter Mccrones now invalidated and non peer reviewed research but I think its because the research is a bit older, but the rest of the stuff is excellent in answering critics. It will give you a good foundation to answer some of the critics. I will be posting more stuff like this in the coming weeks, as we are probably going to be moving a few states over in the near future.


debunking the davinci theory
http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/sorensen.pdf This deals only with debunking the davinci theory and nothing else.

Looking back at the links I studied there is not one site that answers all of the critics objections but it looks like some sites have an expertise in dealing with particular areas of expertise . (science, history, artistry, linen weaves etc). I think this is because the shroud has been studied by so many experts in so many fields. Hundreds of man hours were put into studying the shroud of turin.


http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com
This is another excellent blog that I have posted on. Stephen is very objective minded and concise in his thinking.

http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com.au ... .html#King Where I got credit for disproving Barry Schwartz opinion that all Blood degrades to type ab :mrgreen:

Anyways the first 2 links Paul (especially the first one) are great for answering some common objections to the shroud:)
bippy123
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Re: Shroud of Turin

Post by bippy123 »

PaulSacramento wrote:Truly Bippy, this is facinating stuff.
Is there any reading that I can download or buy to get all this info in one place?
I would love to have this to read and do further research on.
I thank you deeply for all this info you are passing on.
Paul here is another great link for answering the critics of the shroud. This link totally debunks the skepticle enquirers false claims :mrgreen:

http://shroud2000.com/ArticlesPapers/Ar ... gesOn.html
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Re: Shroud of Turin

Post by Icthus »

I must admit, Blippy, I was very skeptical of the Shroud before I discovered this thread a while back and decided to look into it a little more. At first, when I heard claims that the Shroud of Turin was purported to have been Jesus' burial cloth, I mostly just laughed it off as obviously false. I suppose I was, though Christian, strongly predisposed to doubt that anything miraculous could be found in the twenty-first century. I dismissed the Shroud without looking at any of the evidence or even really considering the possibility that it could be authentic. The furthest I bothered to study it was reading a characteristically poorly researched article on Cracked.com (comedy site), and though I'm loathe to admit it, I ate up the tired arguments it brought up as if they were lethal evidence against it. Things have changed, however, and though I'm not yet a firm believer in the Shroud (which I won't deny owes mostly to a lingering bias), looking at the evidence has helped strengthen my faith.

Of course, I'm also a sucker for peer-reviewed evidence and long lists of credentials. The scholar in me can't help but squee like an insane fangirl at the dropping of a good source or a highly respected name. I appreciate the work you've gone through, and I hope that more people stop being like me and actually take a look at the evidence before making conclusions about it.
“The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.” -G.K. Chesterton
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Re: Shroud of Turin

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Icthus wrote:I must admit, Blippy, I was very skeptical of the Shroud before I discovered this thread a while back and decided to look into it a little more. At first, when I heard claims that the Shroud of Turin was purported to have been Jesus' burial cloth, I mostly just laughed it off as obviously false. I suppose I was, though Christian, strongly predisposed to doubt that anything miraculous could be found in the twenty-first century. I dismissed the Shroud without looking at any of the evidence or even really considering the possibility that it could be authentic. The furthest I bothered to study it was reading a characteristically poorly researched article on Cracked.com (comedy site), and though I'm loathe to admit it, I ate up the tired arguments it brought up as if they were lethal evidence against it. Things have changed, however, and though I'm not yet a firm believer in the Shroud (which I won't deny owes mostly to a lingering bias), looking at the evidence has helped strengthen my faith.

Of course, I'm also a sucker for peer-reviewed evidence and long lists of credentials. The scholar in me can't help but squee like an insane fangirl at the dropping of a good source or a highly respected name. I appreciate the work you've gone through, and I hope that more people stop being like me and actually take a look at the evidence before making conclusions about it.

Icthus, nothing to be ashamed about, when I first heard the shroud 5 years ago, I also thought it was just some forgery that had a very beautifull image on Jesus on it made by an artist from the church.

The incredible irony that made me look further into it was when the atheist funded project in 2009 that purported to have replicated the shroud was all over the news,and it was also announced as such on a religious forum I was in at the time, This was when I started to get curious about it. I was wondering what the big deal was to have made atheists all over the net jump up and down calling victory on the shroud. When the excitment wore off long enough for the scientists to look at the replication of the shroud, it was a complete joke, and it had non of the unique characteristics of the real shroud image.

As soon as I got hold of the first few peer reviewed articles, the curiousity started growing and it became almost an obbsession with me. It was wasnt until 1.5 years back that I started to believe the shroud was the burial cloth of Christ.

Icthus there is nothing wrong with having some doubt about the shroud as that is what usually lead people to keep looking at it. What really turned the corner for me was seeing how weak the sketic's arguments were against the shroud and how little evidence their position held. There is almost no peer reviewed research to back the skeptic's side and so much peer review evidence to for the authenticity of the shroud.

That the beauty of the shroud, once it draws you in, you cant leave it alone :mrgreen:

God Bless
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Re: Shroud of Turin

Post by Philip »

Bippy wrote: "As soon as I got hold of the first few peer reviewed articles, the curiousity started growing and it became almost an obbsession with me."
Bippy...ALMOST an obsession???!!! :) :D :lol: :pound:

Seriously, though, I wish all Christians had your passion for seeking the truth of things. Many just seem to think that God called us to a BLIND faith, as if He didn't leave an unfathomable abundance of His fingerprints all over this world and universe. And one just has to be determined to ignore and deny these and their own sense of Him, to not see evidences of both Him and His majesty.

"Yet He did not leave Himself without witness..." (Acts 14:17);

"Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." (Romans 1:19-20)
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Re: Shroud of Turin

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Philip wrote:
Bippy wrote: "As soon as I got hold of the first few peer reviewed articles, the curiousity started growing and it became almost an obbsession with me."
Bippy...ALMOST an obsession???!!! :) :D :lol: :pound:

Seriously, though, I wish all Christians had your passion for seeking the truth of things. Many just seem to think that God called us to a BLIND faith, as if He didn't leave an unfathomable abundance of His fingerprints all over this world and universe. And one just has to be determined to ignore and deny these and their own sense of Him, to not see evidences of both Him and His majesty.

"Yet He did not leave Himself without witness..." (Acts 14:17);

"Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." (Romans 1:19-20)


Hehe yea Phillip, that "almost an obbsession post "by me must be the understatement of the century :mrgreen: .

Your right about blind faith, Christianity isnt about fideism, and your quote from Romans 1:19-20 is one in scripture that alot of people tend to overlook. For a long time I took my faith for granted and it took something dramatic to open my eyes and finally jar my head open to how awesome and wondrous our God really is. Once you catch the bug, you are neverever the same again.


"And one just has to be determined to ignore and deny these and their own sense of Him, to not see evidences of both Him and His majesty. "

Amen to that my friend. It looks like you got the bug also :mrgreen:
God bless
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Re: Shroud of Turin

Post by PaulSacramento »

Bippy,
Thanks for all those links :)
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Re: Shroud of Turin

Post by Philip »

Bippy wrote: "Amen to that my friend. It looks like you got the bug also."
Bippy, indeed I have! But what frustrates me is that most Christians have a total lack of understanding of the importance and power of knowing how God can work in an unbeliever's mind and heart through exposure to apologetics. And not just unbelievers - just think of how apologetics can build one's faith and can always refocus you when doubts creep in - and it WILL, and to all of us, from time to time.

Unfortunately, so often other Christians think of apologetics as being just intellectual pursuits for Christian geeks. Well, call me a geek! It was through studying apologetics materials that I first came to understand that the Bible (in the original autographs) was God's inerrant message to man, and also that the scriptures that have come down to us through history have provided reasons for having an extremely high confidence in what those originals included. That changed EVERYTHING for me. That meant instead of having doubts about scripture, that I needed to examine myself in light of it - a real game changer, that was!
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Re: Shroud of Turin

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PaulSacramento wrote:Bippy,
Thanks for all those links :)
Your welcome Bro:)
God bless
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Re: Shroud of Turin

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Bippy, indeed I have! But what frustrates me is that most Christians have a total lack of understanding of the importance and power of knowing how God can work in an unbeliever's mind and heart through exposure to apologetics. And not just unbelievers - just think of how apologetics can build one's faith and can always refocus you when doubts creep in - and it WILL, and to all of us, from time to time.


Trust me, ive been there Philip ive been there, and you are so so sooooooooooooooo right. In fact my parents would just tell me to believe because I was raised in the faith. Then what do you say to a person from another faith that is curious about Christianity? To just stay where he is because he happened to be born in another faith?


Unfortunately, so often other Christians think of apologetics as being just intellectual pursuits for Christian geeks. Well, call me a geek! It was through studying apologetics materials that I first came to understand that the Bible (in the original autographs) was God's inerrant message to man, and also that the scriptures that have come down to us through history have provided reasons for having an extremely high confidence in what those originals included. That changed EVERYTHING for me. That meant instead of having doubts about scripture, that I needed to examine myself in light of it - a real game changer, that was!
And in turn you can pass down your knowledge to your friends and anyone who happens to be passing through into your life. Your being an instrument of the Lord:). Knowing your passion, I think we are all going to be in for a pleasant moment when they finally and officially date that fragment of Mark found by Daniel wallace (but thats another thread :mrgreen: ).
IM just very glad to see the passion that everyone has here. Its a thirst that never dies.
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Re: Shroud of Turin

Post by bippy123 »

I just found a Golden oldie 16 page pdf article from Gary Habermas from 1999:)
He is one of my favorite Appolgetic guys, with Peter Krreft, William Lane Craig and Dinesh Dsouza(Dsouza takes no prisoners hehe, hes intense lol).

I never knew habermas had done such great research on the shroud as most of the stuff I readfrom him were 2 pagers.

I will quote a few paragraphs from his research article, and notice that hes extremely conservative when writing about the shroud. Habermas was a former skeptic until he finished his phd disertation on the resurrection.

http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/habermas.pdf


But now we are going too far for the purposes of this essay. The last matter mentioned
above still remains. I think that the issue of carbon-14 dating needs to be answered in an
authoritative manner. Beyond the many scientific possibilities involving error that have been
argued since 1988, one or more need to be experimentally confirmed with specific regard to the
shroud. Until this is done, no matter what one’s personal convictions might be, I think we are
allowing the cart to get out in front of the horse. Much of the interest in the shroud almost
undeniably took a downward turn in the Fall of 1988. Even for those who disagree with me about
the importance of the carbon-14 results, we should agree, at the very least, that we will continue
to talk largely to ourselves until this issue has been answered once and for all.


In 2005 Ray Rogers (an agnostic who stated on video that he doesnt believe in Miracles) totally invalidated the c14 tests with his peer review research in thermochimica acta( http://www.shroud.it/ROGERS-3.PDF).


Next, what about any possible pointers from the shroud to Jesus’ resurrection? Actually,
there are a few interesting implications regarding this possibility. First, the body wrapped in the
shroud apparently did not decompose. Numerous medical investigators have argued that the man
is dead, due to several indicators like the presence of rigor mortis. Yet, scientific testing has not
discovered any evidence of decomposition on the cloth. The implications here seem clear: the
absence of bodily decomposition means that the body was not in contact with the cloth for a
prolonged period of time.
Its amazing how this information corresponds almost to a tea with Gospel account. :)

In a Middle Eastern environment in Jesus’ time, a significant amount of bodily
decomposition would occur even after four days (see Jn. 11:39). So the body was separated from the material after a
comparatively short period of time.
36



From another article here: http://avalonra.altervista.org/sections ... ection.pdf

It shows that the body wasnt on the shroud for more than 40 hours.



As Robert Bucklin states, “None of the research done on
the Shroud image has produced any evidence that there has been cellular changes such as might
be expected as the result of a long postmortem interval.”
37[/b
]
Again matches the gospel accounts:)


The second intriguing implication concerns the body’s removal from the cloth. We just
noted that the lack of decomposition indicates that the body did not remain in the cloth very long.
However, the body does not appear to have been moved by conventional means, either, due to
the condition of the bloodstains, which are anatomically correct, including precisely outlined
borders, with blood clots intact. If the cloth had been pulled away from the body, the blood clots
would have smeared or broken.
38


This shows that the Body could not have been physically removed from the shroud because the blood clots would have smeared or broken. No broken clot marks on the shroud. This supports the physicist John Jacksons theory that the body somehow dematerialized and passed through the shroud.

Third, the nature of the image on the shroud now comes prominently into focus. While it
may be said that no image-creating technique has been clearly established, the leading candidate
still seems to be that it is most similar to some kind of radiation. In a little-publicized survey by
Robert Wilcox
39
of 26 of the 1978 scientific investigators, most did not give a specific answer
concerning the cause of the image. Of the seven who did, five said that they thought it fit into the
category of radiation.
40
Add to this John Jackson’s hypothesis of a cloth that collapsed “into and through the
underlying body structure.”
41
This and other tantalizing suggestions over the years add to the
possibility of radiation being the best suggestion concerning the cause of the shroud image.
42
Some would go a step further and relate such a scorch to the resurrection of Jesus, as
well, although comparatively few have published these views. Robert Bucklin is an exception.
He said, “a few of us have openly expressed our opinions that there is support for the resurrection
in the things we see on the Shroud of Turin.”
43
Elaborating, Bucklin added, “When this medical
information is combined with the physical, chemical, and historical facts, there is strong evidence
for Jesus’ resurrection.”


This speaks for itself. Habermas is so cool :)
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