Evidence for God from Science

Posted: **Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:05 am**

Actually, it is making up history. The map that the author made of the BoM is very incompatible and contradictory with descriptions in the BoM. And the map of New England beside it also is misleading.

This map was published in a new study on the Spaulding Theory, which if your not familiar is an old theory linking the BoM to a fictional novel written by Solomon Spaulding in the same era called "Manuscript Story". Here is a brief, and not exhaustive, analysis of these maps. It is taken from this article:
http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=review&id=10

Perhaps the most innovative portion of the study is the section on geography. Several anti-Mormons shouted with glee when they first laid eyes on the map of proposed Book of Mormon lands shown side by side with the map of New England (see figs. 1 and 2), while some LDS scholars looked forward to studying the maps since it seemed that a fresh point of attack worthy of scrutiny had finally reared its head. An exhaustive study of the maps is beyond our purview here.14 Nonetheless, my general findings are summarized below:

Of the 17 Book of Mormon place names treated by Mr. Holley, nine of them (more than 50%) are mentioned only once or twice in the entire Nephite/Jaredite record. This reveals an effort to try to pinpoint cities which have little or no clue given as to their respective locations from the text of the Book of Mormon itself. Even so, it surprised me to learn that many of the cities on Holley's maps are placed in incorrect relationship to one another.

For instance, Angola and Jacobugath should be north of Zarahemla (Mormon 2:3b-4 and 3 Nephi 7:12a; 9:9a); Alma should be north of Lehi-Nephi (Mosiah 18:30-34; 23:1-4, 19; 24:20, 24-25); Jerusalem should be in the land of Lehi-Nephi (Alma 21:1; 24:1); and Morianton should be on the eastern borders of the land southward (Alma 50:28-34; 51:26). Mr. Holley has altered these locational relationships in every instance. Furthermore, he displays a glaring inconsistency in his treatment of the river Sidon. On his maps, he sees a parallel between this river and the Genesee River, yet on pages 14-15 he draws a parallel between the river Sidon and the Ohio River.

Other pertinent questions surface when considering just how original the place names are. For instance, several of the Book of Mormon place names appear in the Bible. These include Ephraim (2 Samuel 13:23), Ramah (Joshua 19:36), and, of course, Jerusalem. If the author of the Book of Mormon were given to pilfering, why would he need the Manuscript Story when the Bible would serve just as well?

It is also important to note that some of the New England cities were not even incorporated entities prior to 1830. Angola was incorporated in 1873,15 and in Monroe County, Ohio, Jerusalem's post office wasn't established until January 8, 1850. Thus, Mr. Holley's claim that such places were known in the neighborhood of Joseph Smith is chronologically misinformed. Finally, to draw etymological parallels between "Jacobugath" and "Jacobsburg," or "Shurr" and "Sherbrooke" is to strain one's credulity.16

Posted: **Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:57 am**

Sargon wrote:Actually, it is making up history. The map that the author made of the BoM is very incompatible and contradictory with descriptions in the BoM. And the map of New England beside it also is misleading.

I'm sorry, but you have to actually provide evidence for this (the stuff you posted here doesn't provide that evidence).

This map was published in a new study on the Spaulding Theory, which if your not familiar is an old theory linking the BoM to a fictional novel written by Solomon Spaulding in the same era called "Manuscript Story".

Yes I am familiar with it, and it is certainly not a 'theory', it's a 'most likely scenario'. That aside, the map does not stand on whether or not Smith borrowed from Spaulding's manuscript.

Of the 17 Book of Mormon place names treated by Mr. Holley, nine of them (more than 50%) are mentioned only once or twice in the entire Nephite/Jaredite record. This reveals an effort to try to pinpoint cities which have little or no clue given as to their respective locations from the text of the Book of Mormon itself.

This misses the point entirely - that the place names occur in the local geographical area. This is the one point which the article you quoted consistenly avoids.

Even so, it surprised me to learn that many of the cities on Holley's maps are placed in incorrect relationship to one another.

He says 'many', and then gives us five out of seventeen. That's not even 30%. Not only that, but hi

Furthermore, he displays a glaring inconsistency in his treatment of the river Sidon. On his maps, he sees a parallel between this river and the Genesee River, yet on pages 14-15 he draws a parallel between the river Sidon and the Ohio River.

This does not deal with the uncanny parallel between the river Sidon and the Genesee river.

Other pertinent questions surface when considering just how original the place names are. For instance, several of the Book of Mormon place names appear in the Bible. These include Ephraim (2 Samuel 13:23), Ramah (Joshua 19:36), and, of course, Jerusalem. If the author of the Book of Mormon were given to pilfering, why would he need the Manuscript Story when the Bible would serve just as well?

There is no need to claim that Smith borrowed the names exclusively from the Spaulding Manuscript, which clearly borrowed Biblical names itself.

It is also important to note that some of the New England cities were not even incorporated entities prior to 1830. Angola was incorporated in 1873,15 and in Monroe County, Ohio, Jerusalem's post office wasn't established until January 8, 1850.

This doesn't change the fact that they were already known by these names.

Finally, to draw etymological parallels between "Jacobugath" and "Jacobsburg," or "Shurr" and "Sherbrooke" is to strain one's credulity.16[/i]

Really? Compare Jacobsburg and Jacobbugath. Compare Shurr with Sherbrooke. Compare also their respective locations on the map.

So in fact you fail completely to deal with the fact that these place names in the Book of Mormon were already extant in Smith's local geographical area, and that most of them occur in the Book of Mormon in the same geographical relationship to each other as they did in the local geography.

Posted: **Thu Dec 14, 2006 2:56 pm**

Yes I am familiar with it, and it is certainly not a 'theory', it's a 'most likely scenario'. That aside, the map does not stand on whether or not Smith borrowed from Spaulding's manuscript.

The Spaulding Theory has long been considered an old refuted idea. It is not taken seriously by any respected BoM critic. But as you said, this isnt the main issue here.

Quote:
Of the 17 Book of Mormon place names treated by Mr. Holley, nine of them (more than 50%) are mentioned only once or twice in the entire Nephite/Jaredite record. This reveals an effort to try to pinpoint cities which have little or no clue given as to their respective locations from the text of the Book of Mormon itself.

This misses the point entirely - that the place names occur in the local geographical area. This is the one point which the article you quoted consistenly avoids.

The Book of Mormon mentions a great number of cities. I can't locate an exact number, but I assure you that it is much much greater than the number of cities on this map. After searching in a region spanning 3 states and including 2 different countries full of settlements the author of the map was able to find a few settlements whose names resemble to differing degrees a very small portion of the cities mentioned in the Book of Mormon. Were Joseph to stupidly steal names from cities he knew and try to fool people into thinking they were original to the Book of Mormon, this issue would have arisen long long before. The residents of this region would have spotted the attempted deception. But we see that in fact this phenomena was not discovered until much much later, after more than a century of other failed attempts(like the spaulding theory) to debunk the claimed truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. In fact I believe this map was published only a decade or two ago. In most scholarly circles it is considered nothing more than an interesting, but wholly inconclusive study.

Quote:
Even so, it surprised me to learn that many of the cities on Holley's maps are placed in incorrect relationship to one another.

He says 'many', and then gives us five out of seventeen. That's not even 30%. Not only that, but hi

Im not aware of the word "many" ever having to mean 31% or greater. He didn't say most, or a majority, he only said many. It seems you are straining for an argument here. At any rate is shows that at least 30% of the time the author of the map was dishonest and misleading.

Quote:
Furthermore, he displays a glaring inconsistency in his treatment of the river Sidon. On his maps, he sees a parallel between this river and the Genesee River, yet on pages 14-15 he draws a parallel between the river Sidon and the Ohio River.

This does not deal with the uncanny parallel between the river Sidon and the Genesee river.

I have actually spoken with the man who helped in assembling this map. His name is Dale, and he is a common poster in another board.(mormonapologetics.org) He strongly disagreed with the author of the map on the placement of the river sidon.
Uncanny parallel?

Quote:
Other pertinent questions surface when considering just how original the place names are. For instance, several of the Book of Mormon place names appear in the Bible. These include Ephraim (2 Samuel 13:23), Ramah (Joshua 19:36), and, of course, Jerusalem. If the author of the Book of Mormon were given to pilfering, why would he need the Manuscript Story when the Bible would serve just as well?

There is no need to claim that Smith borrowed the names exclusively from the Spaulding Manuscript, which clearly borrowed Biblical names itself.

The article is a review of a book written whose main thesis was that Smith borrowed names and ideas from the Spauldings novel. The point made is that the entire book is centered on Joseph using the Manuscript Story as a basis for the BoM, then drawing a map saying he used his envoronment around him as a guide. Were Joseph to be inclined to borrow names from a source other than the gold plates, he would have used the bible, a much more semitic and realistic source, rather than use Spauldings novel or the local geography for ideas for names that would fool people.

Quote:
It is also important to note that some of the New England cities were not even incorporated entities prior to 1830. Angola was incorporated in 1873,15 and in Monroe County, Ohio, Jerusalem's post office wasn't established until January 8, 1850.

This doesn't change the fact that they were already known by these names.

No, but it does mean that they were not on any map available to Joseph Smith at the time. And there is no reason to assume he knew of their location, one being on the other side of the state, and the other much farther away than that. Interstate travel was not a hobby of the poor farmboy.
Angola has been argued by others to be the only correctly spelled city, and interestingly enough it was actually spelled Angelah in the first edition of the Book of Mormon. Also the city supposedly corresponding with Kishkumen was mispelled to look more like the BoM city.

Quote:
Finally, to draw etymological parallels between "Jacobugath" and "Jacobsburg," or "Shurr" and "Sherbrooke" is to strain one's credulity.16[/i]

Really? Compare Jacobsburg and Jacobbugath. Compare Shurr with Sherbrooke. Compare also their respective locations on the map.

Well this might be a matter of opinion. For those who direly want this map to be a strong argument against mormonism, the names sound exactly the same. For those who recognize it as simply an interesting observation that proves nothing, it is a stretch.

So in fact you fail completely to deal with the fact that these place names in the Book of Mormon were already extant in Smith's local geographical area, and that most of them occur in the Book of Mormon in the same geographical relationship to each other as they did in the local geography.

What is there to deal with? Why should I have to deal with it when noone who lived there at the time seemed to mind? The presence of a few cities whose names and approximate locations match a completely theoretical proposal for the BoM map in New England is by no means difficult to imagine.
There are few ways to handle it.

It could be coincidence.

It could be that Joseph randomly chose a few settlements in the New England vicinity he saw on a map, altered some of their names, and threw them into the Book of Mormon, somehow managing to go undetected for over a century.

It could be that Joseph used whatever information he could to best spell out the difficult to pronounce names on the plates. For example, if I were to miraculously understand a egyptian hieroglyphs all of a sudden, and I needed to translate a city that was pronounced something like "Woh-tah-ugah" it would not be inconceivable for me to spell it out the best I knew how using a suburb of Ft. Worth Texas I am familar with called Watauga. That way the common english reader would be able to read it.

But like I said, it is an interesting study, and one that has been evaluated. Unfortunately there is not enough evidence to suggest what you are implying. I dont think even the author of the map tried to take it as far as you have.

Sargon

Posted: **Thu Dec 14, 2006 5:45 pm**

Sargon wrote:
Yes I am familiar with it, and it is certainly not a 'theory', it's a 'most likely scenario'. That aside, the map does not stand on whether or not Smith borrowed from Spaulding's manuscript.
The Spaulding Theory has long been considered an old refuted idea.

By Mormons.

It is not taken seriously by any respected BoM critic.

Proof please.

The Book of Mormon mentions a great number of cities. I can't locate an exact number, but I assure you that it is much much greater than the number of cities on this map. After searching in a region spanning 3 states and including 2 different countries full of settlements the author of the map was able to find a few settlements whose names resemble to differing degrees a very small portion of the cities mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

So what? This doesn't change the fact that they are the same or almost identical. The Mormon claim is always that these place names could not have been derived from any source other than the Book of Mormon itself. This is patently untrue.

Were Joseph to stupidly steal names from cities he knew and try to fool people into thinking they were original to the Book of Mormon, this issue would have arisen long long before. The residents of this region would have spotted the attempted deception. But we see that in fact this phenomena was not discovered until much much later, after more than a century of other failed attempts(like the spaulding theory) to debunk the claimed truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. In fact I believe this map was published only a decade or two ago.

This is not news, and this work has been done more than once, long ago. It is not a new idea.

In most scholarly circles it is considered nothing more than an interesting, but wholly inconclusive study.

Which 'scholarly circles' are these?

Im not aware of the word "many" ever having to mean 31% or greater.

Now you are.

He didn't say most, or a majority, he only said many. It seems you are straining for an argument here.

I am not the one straining for an argument. The word 'many' does not mean 30%.

At any rate is shows that at least 30% of the time the author of the map was dishonest and misleading.

No it doesn't, that is simply the claim which has been made. And it doesn't change the fact that this charge couldn't even be raised against all the other places, nor does it change the fact of the names themselves.

[quoteI have actually spoken with the man who helped in assembling this map. His name is Dale, and he is a common poster in another board.(mormonapologetics.org) He strongly disagreed with the author of the map on the placement of the river sidon.[/quote]

So what?

Uncanny parallel?

You're right, it's not uncanny - it's not uncanny because Smith just copied it.

The article is a review of a book written whose main thesis was that Smith borrowed names and ideas from the Spauldings novel. The point made is that the entire book is centered on Joseph using the Manuscript Story as a basis for the BoM, then drawing a map saying he used his envoronment around him as a guide.

Could we stay with my argument please, and not change the subject?

Were Joseph to be inclined to borrow names from a source other than the gold plates, he would have used the bible, a much more semitic and realistic source, rather than use Spauldings novel or the local geography for ideas for names that would fool people.

But he did use the Bible. I gave you a halfpage list of names and places he had lifted straight ouf of the Bible. You completely ignored it.

No, but it does mean that they were not on any map available to Joseph Smith at the time.

So what?

And there is no reason to assume he knew of their location, one being on the other side of the state, and the other much farther away than that.

Yes there most certainly is - the fact that he used these names and placed them in locations identical or almost identical to where they were in real life.

Interstate travel was not a hobby of the poor farmboy.

He was not a 'poor farmboy'.

Angola has been argued by others to be the only correctly spelled city...

Well that's clearly false, because there are a list of them which are very obviously correctly spelled.

Well this might be a matter of opinion.

Perhaps it's only a matter of opinion that 'Jacob' looks like 'Jacob'.

For those who recognize it as simply an interesting observation that proves nothing, it is a stretch.

In other words, you have to approach it from the presupposition that it is wrong, on which basis you reach the conclusion that it is wrong. That is circular reasoning.

What is there to deal with?

The fact that these place names in the Book of Mormon were already extant in Smith's local geographical area, and that most of them occur in the Book of Mormon in the same geographical relationship to each other as they did in the local geography.

It could be coincidence.

Unlikely.

It could be that Joseph randomly chose a few settlements in the New England vicinity he saw on a map, altered some of their names, and threw them into the Book of Mormon, somehow managing to go undetected for over a century.

It didn't go undetected for over a century.

It could be that Joseph used whatever information he could to best spell out the difficult to pronounce names on the plates. For example, if I were to miraculously understand a egyptian hieroglyphs all of a sudden, and I needed to translate a city that was pronounced something like "Woh-tah-ugah" it would not be inconceivable for me to spell it out the best I knew how using a suburb of Ft. Worth Texas I am familar with called Watauga. That way the common english reader would be able to read it.

You need to decide once and for all if Smith was an inspired translator, or only an uninspired approximating transliterator. Which is it to be?

Posted: **Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:06 pm**

Here's the one you missed Sargon:

The following is a list of the names found in the Book of Mormon, where they are found, and a possible source that Joseph Smith had access to for taking or creating (by joining two or more words together in some cases) the name.

Obviously, if this type of list was the only evidence against the Book of Mormon being what it claims to be (which it isn't), it wouldn't be a very effective argument against the Book of Mormon's authenticity. The list is merely a possible answer to the question LDS come up with when they say, "If the Book of Mormon isn't of ancient origin, where did Joseph Smith come up with all of those names?"

Nephi I Nephi 1:1 Nephi (II Maccabbes 1:36)
Also see Webster's 1828 dictionary definition for Nephrite.

Could the idea for the names for the major groups found in the Book of Mormon (Nephites and Jaredites) come from this contemporary dictionary entry?

Joseph Smith was fascinated by stones (as were his characters in the Book of Mormon).

Note that Joseph Smith later referred to himself as Gazelem which sounds a bit
like yet some additional stone words in the 1828 dictionary.

Lehi I Nephi 1:4 Lehi (Judges 15:9)

Sariah I Nephi 2:5 Sarai (Genesis 11:29)

Laman I Nephi 2:5 Laban (Genesis 24:29)
Lamen View of the Hebrews pg 90

Lemuel I Nephi 2:5 Lemuel (Proverbs 31:1) (Lemuel Durfee, Sr. was the
owner of the Smith farm where they lived as tenant farmers after 1825. See Inside the Mind
of Joseph Smith for more on why this "coincidence" may be important.)

Sam I Nephi 2:5 Samuel (I Samuel 1:20) (See pages 51-2 of Inside the Mind
of Joseph Smith for more on Nephi/Joseph Smith Jr.'s families.)

Laban I Nephi 3:3 Laban (Genesis 24:29) (Lebanon was the
town where Joseph Smith had his three surgeries as a child. See Inside the Mind
of Joseph Smith for more on why this "coincidence" may be important.)

Zoram I Nephi 4:35 Zorah (Joshua 19:41)

Ishmael I Nephi 7:2 Ishmael (Genesis 16:11)

Nahom (Site) I Nephi 16:34 Nahum (Nahum 1:1)

Irreantum I Nephi 17:5 Israel & Miletum (2 Timothy 4:20) (both sites)
(Site)

Jacob I Nephi 18:7 Jacob (Genesis 25:26)

Joseph I Nephi 18:7 Joseph (Genesis 30:24)

Zenock I Nephi 19:10 Zadok (II Samuel 8:17)

Neum I Nephi 19:10 Nahum (Nahum 1:1)

Zenos I Nephi 19:10 Zenas (Titus 3:13)

Sherem Jacob 7:1 Sheresh (I Chronicles 7:16)

Jarom Jarom 1:1 Joram (II Samuel 8:10)
Another possible stone derivative?

Omni Jarom 1:15 Omri (IKings 16:16)

Amaron Omni 1:3 Amariah (I Chronicles 6:7)

Chemish Omni 1:8 Chemosh (Numbers 21:29)
Chemim View of the Hebrews pg 90

Abinadom Omni 1:10 Abinadab (I Samuel 7:1)

Amaleki Omni 1:12 Amalek (Genesis 36:12)

Mosiah Omni 1:12 Moses (Exodus 2:10) and Isaiah (Isaiah 1:1)

Zarahemla Omni 1:12 Zara (Matthew 1:3) and Imla (II
(site) Chronicles 18:7)

Coriantumr Omni 1:21 Coriander (Exodus 16:31)

Benjamin Omni 1:23 Benjamin (Genesis 35:18) (Rev. Benjamin Stockton was the
Presbyterian minister during the 1824-5 Palmyra revival. He had personal dealings with the
Smith family including offending Joseph Smith Sr. at Alvin Smith's funeral. It is thought
that his sermons were like that of the Book of Mormon's Benjamin. See Inside the Mind
of Joseph Smith for more on this "coincidence".)

Mormon Words of Mormon Moriah (Genesis 22:2) and Solomon (II
1:1 Samuel 5:14)

Moroni Words of Mormon Capital of Comoros (Camorah)
1:1 (See Cumorah below for more info)

Helorum Mosiah 1:2 Helon (Numbers 1:9) and Harum (I Chronicles 4:8)
(via email I received this tip: An alternative would be the "Helorum"
in Livy's "History of Rome", the source of many, many Solomon Spalding borrowings)

Helaman Mosiah 1:2 Helam (II Samuel 10:16)

Shilom (site) Mosiah 7:5 Shiloh (Genesis 49:10) also View of the Hebrews pg 90

Helem Mosiah 7:6 Helam (II Samuel 10:16)

Hem Mosiah 7:6 Ham (Genesis 5:32)

Limhi Mosiah 7:9 Lemhi Indians of Idaho

Noah Mosiah 7:9 Noah (Genesis 5:29)

Zeniff Mosiah 7:9 Zenan (Joshua 15:37) and Ziph (Joshua 15:24)

Neas (food) Mosiah 9:9 Neah (Joshua 19:13)

Sheum (food) Mosiah 9:9 Shem (Genesis 5:32)

Shemlon (site) Mosiah 10:7 Shem (Genesis 5:32)

Ziff (metal) Mosiah 11:3 Ziph (Joshua 15:24)

Abinadi Mosiah 11:20 Abinadab (I Samuel 7:1)

Alma Mosiah 17:2 Almon (Joshua 21:18) (also a town in Quebec)

Gideon Mosiah 19:4 Gideon (Judges 6:11)

Amulon Mosiah 23:31 Amalek (Genesis 36:12)
(site/name)

Mulek Mosiah 25:2 Amalek (Genesis 36:12)

Ammon(ite) Mosiah 27:34 Ammon (Genesis 19:38)
Also see Nephi and Jared and the Ammonite entry in the same dictionary.

Aaron Mosiah 27:34 Aaron (Exodus 4:14)

Omner Mosiah 27:34 Omer (Exodus 16:16)

Himni Mosiah 27:34 Shimhi (I Chronicles 8:21)

Nehor Alma 1:15 Nahor (Genesis 11:22)

Manti (site) Alma 1:15

Amlici Alma 2:1 Amalek (Genesis 36:12)

Amnihu (site) Alma 2:15 Amnon (II Samuel 3:2) and Jehu (I Kings 16:1)

Sidon (site) Alma 2:15 Sidon (Genesis 10:15)

Zeram Alma 2:22 Zerah (Genesis 36:13)

Amnor Alma 2:22 Amnon (II Samuel 3:2)

Limher Alma 2:22 Limhi (Mosiah 7:9)

Minon (site) Alma 2:24 Pinon (Genesis 36:41)

Nephihah Alma 4:17 Nephi (II Maccabbes 1:36)

Melek (site) Alma 8:3 Amalek (Genesis 36:12)

Ammonihah Alma 8:6 Ammon (Genesis 19:38)
(site)

Amulek Alma 8:21 Amalek (Genesis 36:12)

Giddonah Alma 10:2 Megiddon (Zechariah 12:11)

Aminadi Alma 10:2 Aminadab (Matthew 1:4)

Zeezrom Alma 10:31 Zeeb (Psalms 83:11) & Ezrom (Alma 11:6)

Senine (coin) Alma 11:3 Senir (Ezekiel 27:5)

Senum (coin) Alma 11:3 Senuah (Nehemiah 11:9)

Seon (coin) Alma 11:5 Sion (Deuteronomy 4:48)

Shum (coin) Alma 11:5 Shem (Genesis 5:32)

Limnah (coin) Alma 11:5 Limhi (Mosiah 7:9)

Ezrom (coin) Alma 11:6 Esrom (Matthew 1:3)

Onti (coin) Alma 11:6

Shiblon (coin) Alma 11:15 Shibboleth (Judges 12:6)

Shiblum (coin) Alma 11:16 Shiblon (Alma 11:15)

Leah (coin) Alma 11:17 Leah (Genesis 29:16)

Antion (coin) Alma 11:19 Antioch (Acts 6:5)

Antionah Alma 12:20 Antion (Alma 11:19)

Sidom (site) Alma 15:1 Sidon (Genesis 10:15)

Lamoni Alma 17:21 Laman (I Nephi 2:5)

Sebus (site) Alma 17:26 Seba (Genesis 10:7)

Rabbanah Alma 18:13 Rabboni (John 20:16)
(title)

Abish Alma 19:16 Abishai (I Samuel 26:6)

Middoni Alma 20:2 Midian (Genesis 25:2)

Muloki Alma 20:2 Amalek (Genesis 36:12)

Ammah Alma 20:2 Ammah (II Samuel 2:24)

Antiomno Alma 20:4 Antioch (Acts 6:5) and Omni (Jarom 1:15)

Ani-Anti Alma 21:11 Antiomno (Alma 20:4)

Shimnilom Alma 23:12 Shimon (I Chronicles 4:20)
(site)

Jershon (site) Alma 27:22 Gershon (Genesis 46:11)

Korihor Alma 30:12 Korah (Numbers 16:1) also View of the Hebrews pg 90

Antionum Alma 31:3 Antiomno (Alma 20:4)
(site)

Corianton Alma 31:7 Coriantumr (Omni 1:21)

Rameumptom Alma 31:21 Ramiah (Ezra 10:25), Reumah (Genesis 22:24),
(site) Miletum (2 Timoty 4:20)

Onidah (site) Alma 32:4 Oneida Indians of Ontario (name means "people of the stone")

Gazelem Alma 37:23 Gazzam (Ezra 2:48) (Also see the above)

Liahona Alma 37:38 Liani/Lihene View of the Hebrews pg 90

Siron (site) Alma 39:3 Sidon (Genesis 10:15)

Isabel Alma 39:3 Jezebel (I Kings 16:31)

Zerahemnah Alma 43:5 Zarahemla (Omni 1:12)

Riplah (site) Alma 43:31 Riblah (Numbers 34:11, II Kings 25:6, II Kings 23:33, Jeremiah 39:5, Jeremiah 52:9)

Amalickiah Alma 46:3 Amalek (Genesis 36:12)

Antipas (site) Alma 47:7 Antipas (Revelation 2:13)

Lehonti Alma 47:10 Lehi (Judges 15:9) and Onti (Alma 11:6)

Morianton Alma 50:25 Moriah (Genesis 22:2)
(site)

Pahoran Alma 50:40 Paran (Genesis 21:21)

Judea (site) Alma 56:9 Judea (Ezra 5:8)

Antipus Alma 56:9 Antipas (Revelation 2:13)

Cumeni (site) Alma 56:14 Cummin (Isaiah 28:25)

Antiparah Alma 56:14 Antipas (Revelation 2:13) and Parah
(site) (Joshua 18:23)

Teomner Alma 58:16 Tamar (Genesis 38:6)

Pachus Alma 62:6

Moronihah Alma 62:43 Moroni (Words of Mormon 1:1)

Hagoth Alma 63:5 Haggith (II Samuel 3:4)

Paanchi Helaman 1:3

Pacumeni Helaman 1:3 Pachus (Alma 62:6) and Cumeni (Alma 56:14)

Kishkumen Helaman 1:9 Kish (I Samuel 9:1) and Cumeni (Alma 56:14)

Tubaloth Helaman 1:16 Tubal (Genesis 10:2)

Gadianton Helaman 2:4 Gideon (Judges 6:11)

Cezoram Helaman 5:1 Zoram (I Nephi 4:35)

Aminadab Helaman 5:39 Aminadab (Matthew 1:4)

Ezias Helaman 8:20 Esaias (John 1:23)

Seezoram Helaman 9:23 Cezoram (Helaman 5:1)

Seantum Helaman 9:26

Samuel Helaman 13:2 Samuel (I Samuel 1:20)

Lachoneus III Nephi 1:1 Lacunus (I Esdras 9:31) Greek or Latin name that
shouldn't be in a Hebrew or 'Reformed Egyptian' book.

Giddianhi III Nephi 3:9 Gideon (Judges 6:11)

Gidgiddoni III Nephi 3:18 Giddianhi (III Nephi 3:9)

Zemnarihah III Nephi 4:17 Zemaraim (Joshua 18:22)

Gilgal (site) III Nephi 9:6 Gilgal (Deuteronomy 11:30)

Onihah (site) III Nephi 9:7 Onidah (Alma 32:4)

Mocum (site) III Nephi 9:7

Gadiandi III Nephi 9:8 Gadianton (Helaman 2:4)
(site)

Gadiomnah III Nephi 9:8 Gadianton (Helaman 2:4)
(site)

Gimgimno III Nephi 9:8 Gimzo (II Chronicles 28:18)
(site)

Jacobugath III Nephi 9:9 Jacob (Genesis 25:26) and Gath (I Samuel
(site) 17:23)

Josh III Nephi 9:10 Joshua (Exodus 17:9)

Gad III Nephi 9:10 Gad (Genesis 30:11)

Timothy III Nephi 19:4 Timothy (II Corinthians 1:1) - Another Greek name
that shouldn't be in the Book of Mormon

Jonas III Nephi 19:4 Jonas (Matthew 12:39)

Mathoni III Nephi 19:4 Matthew (Matthew 9:9) and Lamoni (Alma 17:21)

Mathonihah III Nephi 19:4 Mathoni (III Nephi 19:4)

Kumen III Nephi 19:4 Cumeni (Alma 56:14)

Kumenonhi III Nephi 19:4 Kumen (III Nephi 19:4)

Shemnon III Nephi 19:4 Shem (Genesis 5:32) and Amnon (II Samuel 3:2)

Ammaron IV Nephi 1:47 Amariah (I Chronicles 6:7)

Antum (site) Mormon 1:3

Shim (site) Mormon 1:3 Shem (Genesis 5:32)

Angola (site) Mormon 2:4 African State (Spelt Angelah in 1830 version)

Joshua (site) Mormon 2:6 Joshua (Exodus 17:9)

Jashon (site) Mormon 2:16 Jashen (II Samuel 23:32)

Shem (site) Mormon 2:20 Shem (Genesis 5:32)

Boaz (site) Mormon 4:20 Boaz (Ruth 2:1)

Cumorah (site) Mormon 6:2 Comoros (Capital City is Moroni) - Island chain East of
Mozambique, Africa (note: See this site for more info)

Gidgiddonah Mormon 6:13 Gadiomnah (III Nephi 9:8)
(site)

Lamah (site) Mormon 6:14 Laman (I Nephi 2:5)

Limhah (site) Mormon 6:14 Limhi (Mosiah 7:9)

Jeneum (site) Mormon 6:14

Cumenihah Mormon 6:14 Cumeni (Alma 56:14)
(site)

Shiblom (site) Mormon 6:14 Shiblon (Alma 11:15)

Ether Ether 1:2 Ether (Joshua 15:42)

Coriantor Ether 1:6 Coriantumr (Omni 1:21)

Moron Ether 1:7 Moroni (Words of Mormon 1:1)

Ethem Ether 1:8 Ether (Joshua 15:42)

Ahah Ether 1:9 Ahab (I Kings 16:28)

Seth Ether 1:10 Seth (Genesis 4:25)

Com Ether 1:12

Coriantum Ether 1:13 Coriantumr (Omni 1:21)

Amnigaddah Ether 1:14 Amnon (II Samuel 3:2) and Gadiandi (III Nephi 9:8)

Heth Ether 1:16 Heth (Genesis 10:15)

Hearthom Ether 1:16

Lib Ether 1:17 Libya (Ezekiel 30:5) also African state

Kish Ether 1:18 Kish (I Samuel 9:1) also View of the Hebrews pg 90

Corom Ether 1:19 Coriantum (Ether 1:13)

Levi Ether 1:20 Levi (Genesis 29:34)

Kim Ether 1:21

Riplakish Ether 1:23 Riplah (Alma 43:31) and Kish (Ether 1:18)

Shez Ether 1:24

Emer Ether 1:28 Omer (Exodus 16:16)

Omer Ether 1:29 Omer (Exodus 16:16)

Shule Ether 1:30 Shual (I Samuel 13:17)

Kib Ether 1:31

Orihah Ether 1:32 Orion (Job 9:9)

Jared Ether 1:32 Jared (Genesis 5:15)
See also Nephi and Ammon. Jade or jadery slightly changed to Jared?

Deseret Ether 2:3
(insect)

Moriancumer Ether 2:13 Moriah (Genesis 22:2) and Cumeni (Alma
(site) 56:14)

Shelem (site) Ether 3:1 Shelemiah (I Chronicles 26:14)

Jacom Ether 6:14 Jacob (Genesis 25:26)

Gilgah Ether 6:14 Gilgal (Joshua 4:19)

Mahah Ether 6:14 Mahath (I Chronicles 6:35)

Pagag Ether 6:25 Agag (I Samuel 15:8)

Corihor Ether 7:3 Korihor (Alma 30:12)

Cohor Ether 7:15 Corihor (Ether 7:3)

Esrom Ether 8:4 Esrom (Matthew 1:3)

Akish Ether 8:10 Kish (I Samuel 9:1)

Kimnor Ether 8:10

Ablom Ether 9:3 Absalom (II Samuel 3:3)

Nimrah Ether 9:8 Nimrah (Numbers 32:3)

Curelom Ether 9:19
(animal)

Cumom (animal) Ether 9:19

Amgid Ether 10:32

Zerin (site) Ether 12:30 Zeri (I Chronicles 25:3)

Shared Ether 13:23 Jared (Genesis 5:15)

Heshlon (site) Ether 13:28 Heshmon (Joshua 15:27)

Gilead Ether 14:8 Gilead (Genesis 31:21)

Agosh (site) Ether 14:15 Goshen (Genesis 45:10)

Shiz Ether 14:17 Shez (Ether 1:24)

Shurr (site) Ether 14:28 Shur (Genesis 16:7)

Comnor Ether 14:28

Ripliancum Ether 15:8 Riplah (Alma 43:31)
(site)

Ogath Ether 15:10 Gath (I Samuel 17:23)

Ramah Ether 15:11 Ramah (Joshua 18:25)

Archeantus Moroni 9:2 Archelaus (Matthew 2:22)

Luram Moroni 9:2 Ludim (Genesis 10:13) and Ramah (Joshua 18:25)

Emron Moroni 9:2 Esrom (Matthew 1:3)

Amoron Moroni 9:7 Amorite (Joshua 9:1)

Sherrizah Moroni 9:7 Sherezer (Zechariah 7:2)

Moriantum Moroni 9:9 Moriancumer (Ether 2:13)

Zenephi Moroni 9:16 Zeniff (Mosiah 7:9) and Nephi (Nephi 1:1)

Source.

Posted: **Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:43 pm**

Sargon wrote:For instance, Angola and Jacobugath should be north of Zarahemla (Mormon 2:3b-4 and 3 Nephi 7:12a; 9:9a); Alma should be north of Lehi-Nephi (Mosiah 18:30-34; 23:1-4, 19; 24:20, 24-25); Jerusalem should be in the land of Lehi-Nephi (Alma 21:1; 24:1); and Morianton should be on the eastern borders of the land southward (Alma 50:28-34; 51:26).

Sargon... I see nothing from these verses that give support to your claim..

For instance, Angola and Jacobugath should be north of Zarahemla (Mormon 2:3b-4 and 3 Nephi 7:12a; 9:9a);

Here are the verses in question taken directly from the LDS website at //scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/contents

Morm. 2: 3-4
3 And it came to pass that in the three hundred and twenty and seventh year the Lamanites did come upon us with aexceedingly great power, insomuch that they did frighten my armies; therefore they would not fight, and they began to retreat towards the bnorth countries.
4 And it came to pass that we did come to the city of Angola, and we did take possession of the city, and make preparations to defend ourselves against the Lamanites. And it came to pass that we did afortify the city with our might; but notwithstanding all our fortifications the Lamanites did come upon us and did drive us out of the city.

3 Ne. 7: 12
12 Therefore, Jacob seeing that their enemies were more numerous than they, he being the king of the band, therefore he commanded his people that they should take their flight into the northernmost part of the land, and there build up unto themselves a akingdom, until they were joined by dissenters, (for he flattered them that there would be many dissenters) and they become sufficiently strong to contend with the tribes of the people; and they did so.

3 Ne. 9: 9
9 And behold, that great city Jacobugath, which was inhabited by the people of king Jacob, have I caused to be burned with fire because of their sins and their awickedness, which was above all the wickedness of the whole earth, because of their bsecret murders and combinations; for it was they that did cdestroy the peace of my people and the government of the land; therefore I did cause them to be burned, to ddestroy them from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up unto me any more against them.

Where do any of these scriptures (above) say anything that Angola and Jacobugath should be north of Zarahemla?

Alma should be north of Lehi-Nephi (Mosiah 18:30-34; 23:1-4, 19; 24:20, 24-25);

Ok, fine let's check it out...

Mosiah 18: 30-34
30 And now it came to pass that all this was done in Mormon, yea, by the awaters of Mormon, in the forest that was near the waters of Mormon; yea, the place of Mormon, the waters of Mormon, the forest of Mormon, how beautiful are they to the eyes of them who there came to the knowledge of their Redeemer; yea, and how blessed are they, for they shall bsing to his praise forever.
31 And these things were done in the aborders of the land, that they might not come to the knowledge of the king.
32 But behold, it came to pass that the king, having discovered a movement among the people, sent his servants to watch them. Therefore on the day that they were assembling themselves together to hear the word of the Lord they were discovered unto the king.
33 And now the king said that Alma was stirring up the people to rebellion against him; therefore he sent his aarmy to destroy them.
34 And it came to pass that Alma and the people of the Lord were aapprised of the coming of the king's army; therefore they took their tents and their families and bdeparted into the wilderness.

Mosiah 23: 1-4, 19
1 Now Alma, having been awarned of the Lord that the armies of king Noah would come upon them, and having made it known to his people, therefore they gathered together their flocks, and took of their grain, and bdeparted into the wilderness before the armies of king Noah.
2 And the Lord did strengthen them, that the people of king Noah could not overtake them to destroy them.
3 And they fled aeight days' journey into the wilderness.
4 And they came to a land, yea, even a very beautiful and pleasant land, a land of pure water.
• • •
19 And it came to pass that they began to prosper exceedingly in the land; and they called the land aHelam.

Mosiah 24: 20, 24-25
20 And Alma and his people departed into the wilderness; and when they had traveled all day they pitched their tents in a valley, and they called the valley Alma, because he led their way in the wilderness.

24 And it came to pass that they departed out of the valley, and took their journey into the wilderness.
25 And after they had been in the wilderness atwelve days *they arrived in the land of Zarahemla; and king Mosiah did also breceive them with joy.

Where do any of these scriptures say anything that Alma should be north of Lehi-Nephi?

Jerusalem should be in the land of Lehi-Nephi (Alma 21:1; 24:1);

Alright great... more verses..

Alma 21: 1
1 Now when Ammon and his brethren aseparated themselves in the borders of the land of the Lamanites, behold Aaron took his journey towards the land which was called by the Lamanites, bJerusalem, calling it after the land of their fathers' nativity; and it was away joining the borders of Mormon.

Alma 24: 1
1 And it came to pass that the Amalekites and the Amulonites and the Lamanites who were in the land of aAmulon, and also in the land of bHelam, and who were in the land of cJerusalem, and in fine, in all the land round about, who had not been converted and had not taken upon them the name of dAnti-Nephi-Lehi, were stirred up by the Amalekites and by the Amulonites to anger against their brethren.

Where do any of these scriptures say anything that Jerusalem should be in the land of Lehi-Nephi?

and Morianton should be on the eastern borders of the land southward (Alma 50:28-34; 51:26).

So? Where is the proof?

Alma 50: 28-34
28 And it came to pass that when the people of Morianton, who were led by a man whose name was Morianton, found that the people of Lehi had fled to the camp of Moroni, they were exceedingly fearful lest the army of Moroni should come upon them and destroy them.
29 Therefore, Morianton put it into their hearts that they should flee to the land which was northward, which was covered with alarge bodies of water, and take possession of the land which was northward.

Morianton is covered (surrounded) with large bodies of water... Again, please look at the map..

30 And behold, they would have carried this plan into effect, (which would have been a cause to have been lamented) but behold, Morianton being a man of much passion, therefore he was angry with one of his maid servants, and he fell upon her and beat her much.
31 And it came to pass that she fled, and came over to the camp of Moroni, and told Moroni all things concerning the matter, and also concerning their intentions to flee into the land northward.
32 Now behold, the people who were in the land Bountiful, or rather Moroni, feared that they would hearken to the words of Morianton and unite with his people, and thus he would obtain possession of those parts of the land, which would lay a foundation for serious consequences among the people of Nephi, yea, which aconsequences would lead to the overthrow of their bliberty.
33 Therefore Moroni sent an army, with their camp, to head the people of Morianton, to stop their flight into the land northward.
34 And it came to pass that they did not ahead them until they had come to the borders of the land bDesolation; and there they did head them, by the narrow pass which led by the sea into the land northward, yea, by the sea, on the west and on the east.

Alma 51: 26
26 And thus he went on, taking possession of amany cities, the city of bNephihah, and the city of cLehi, and the city of Morianton, and the city of Omner, and the city of Gid, and the city of Mulek, all of which were on the east borders by the seashore.

Where do any of these scriptures say anything that Morianton should be on the eastern borders of the land southward? Again here is the map...

Sargon, are you just posting things without checking what they are saying? Do you realize what you are saying or did you just decided to post something to save face?

Posted: **Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:05 pm**

Unfortunately I do not have the time at my disposal right now to respond to your long posts. I will however point out one thing that you may be forgetting. It is in regards to the long list of names that Joseph Smith supposedly took from the bible.
Let us start from the assumption that the book is what it claims to be. Put aside your bias for a moment and just pretend. If it is a book chronicling the generations of an israelite/jewish civilization it will be no surprise to find that many of the names are closely related to other semitic names in the bible. They had copies of the OT with them, from which they possibly, nay probably took many many names from. Should we also begin accusing Joseph Smith of stealing since his name is Joseph, which obviously comes straight from the bible?
You will also note that there are only 2 names in the entire BoM that have any connection to greek names. Pretty smart of Joseph to have remembered not to use names from the NT. Or is it because the book is what it claims to be and the nephites didnt speek greek?
You may have missed the introduction of the list:

Obviously, if this type of list was the only evidence against the Book of Mormon being what it claims to be (which it isn't), it wouldn't be a very effective argument against the Book of Mormon's authenticity.

This list is poor evidence because there is no evidence whatsoever that Joseph did this. He would have had to have scanned the bible searching for names, and made lists and charts making sure he didnt use them improperly. There are plenty of eye witness accounts about the materials Joseph had with him, and none of them mentions anything about careful notes on biblical names.
An interesting study shows that not one single name in the hebrew bible includes a surname, a last name. Had Joseph been merely copying names from the bible and altering them in an attempt to look authentic it is likely he would have accidentally included a few last names, which was the custom in his day as it is now and as it has been for a very very long time.
Also, not one name in the OT as translated into english includes a q, x, w or starts with an F. The BoM shares the same peculiar pattern. Of the 337 names that Joseph supposedly invented using the bible as a guide, he somehow did not violate this odd characteristic. This of course is based on probability, but it is a very small probability that it is pure coincidence.

I do not have time tonight to discuss the technicalities of BoM geography, but hopefully we can get to it. I do not randomly post articles hoping to somehow save face, but I post articles written by people who I trust to have done careful research. I apologize if you expect to me check up on every single scripture referred to in every article I read. After glancing through the verses you cited from the BoM, I noticed several things worth commenting on, which will have to wait until later.

Merry Christmas.

Sargon

Posted: **Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:04 am**

Sargon wrote:Unfortunately I do not have the time at my disposal right now to respond to your long posts. I will however point out one thing that you may be forgetting. It is in regards to the long list of names that Joseph Smith supposedly took from the bible.

It isn't an assumption. They're right there in the Bible.

Let us start from the assumption that the book is what it claims to be.

This is circular reasoning. The fact that this is the only grounds on which you can defend the Book of Mormon is telling.

You will also note that there are only 2 names in the entire BoM that have any connection to greek names. Pretty smart of Joseph to have remembered not to use names from the NT. Or is it because the book is what it claims to be and the nephites didnt speek greek?

Er no, it simply demonstrates that he stuck to the Old Testament, which isn't surprising since he was supposedly dealing with the history of migrating Hebrews.

You may have missed the introduction of the list:
Obviously, if this type of list was the only evidence against the Book of Mormon being what it claims to be (which it isn't), it wouldn't be a very effective argument against the Book of Mormon's authenticity.

No I didn't miss it. But this doesn't change the fact that the list is there. It's a legitimate list. You cannot make it go away.

This list is poor evidence because there is no evidence whatsoever that Joseph did this.

You are missing the point entirely. The point here is that your church repeatedly claims (as you have done), that Smith had no access to materials from which to fabricate the history, geography, and names in the Book of Mormon. It is transparently clear that he did have access to such materials.

As to the question of whether he used these materials or he translated 'reformed Egyptian' from golden plates, we have only to apply a little logic:

* The existence of these materials, and their availability to Smith, is an undeniable fact

* The existence of the 'golden plates' written in 'reformed Egyptian', has never been verified

So we're presented with a choice of sources. We can prove one source exists. There is no evidence whatever for the other source. You do the math.

He would have had to have scanned the bible searching for names, and made lists and charts making sure he didnt use them improperly.

What do you mean 'didn't use them improperly'? He could have made a quick scan of the contents page of the Bible commonly used in the era (which included the Apocrypha, and note that a number of words and names in the Book of Mormon are found in the Apocrypha), run through a few of the genealogies in the Bible (a number of names in the Book of Mormon are found in single chapters of the Bible), or else simply used his memory.

But hey, it was even easier than that. The Bible commonly used in Smith's era not only included the Apocrypha, but a list of all the names in the Bible, complete with their meanings. So he would only have had to look over that list for 'inspiration'. He didn't need to make any lists or charts of his own.

An interesting study shows that not one single name in the hebrew bible includes a surname, a last name. Had Joseph been merely copying names from the bible and altering them in an attempt to look authentic it is likely he would have accidentally included a few last names, which was the custom in his day as it is now and as it has been for a very very long time.

Why is that likely, given that he would have been trying to make the book look like an authentic Hebrew document, in which surnames were not used?

Also, not one name in the OT as translated into english includes a q, x, w or starts with an F. The BoM shares the same peculiar pattern. Of the 337 names that Joseph supposedly invented using the bible as a guide, he somehow did not violate this odd characteristic. This of course is based on probability, but it is a very small probability that it is pure coincidence.

It is not in the least a coincidence - it is strong evidence that Smith was simply running through a list of 'names in the Bible' which was contained in the Bible commonly used in his era.

Posted: **Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:07 am**

Quote:
Let us start from the assumption that the book is what it claims to be.

This is circular reasoning. The fact that this is the only grounds on which you can defend the Book of Mormon is telling.

My reasoning is no more circular than yours. Of course I am going to start from this premise, for you equally start from the assumption that the BoM is false. Why should I do things your way?

Quote:
You will also note that there are only 2 names in the entire BoM that have any connection to greek names. Pretty smart of Joseph to have remembered not to use names from the NT. Or is it because the book is what it claims to be and the nephites didnt speek greek?

Er no, it simply demonstrates that he stuck to the Old Testament, which isn't surprising since he was supposedly dealing with the history of migrating Hebrews.

No, actually the fact that he did include at least one name from the NT (Timothy) tells us that he was not conciously doing what you claim he was. Were he to conciously exclude the the NT as you have suggested, he would not have made this mistake. Especially if he had the amazing memory that you need him to have for your theory to stand.

No I didn't miss it. But this doesn't change the fact that the list is there. It's a legitimate list. You cannot make it go away.

And you cannot make the incredible list of hebraisms in the BoM go away, which are much more compelling evidence for the authenticity of the book. If you want to talk about those I am prepared.

Quote:
This list is poor evidence because there is no evidence whatsoever that Joseph did this.

You are missing the point entirely.

No, the point is that your theory rests on the assumption that Joseph had a bible with him that he actively used in coming up with BoM names. Multiple eye witnesses testified that he had no such materials with him. Im sure you familiar with IRR, and probably have relied on their research for our discussions(an honest assumption, which could be wrong). They are a very dedicated anti-mormon organization. In their attempt to prove that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon using a seerstone and a hat, by some sort of supernatural/demonic means, they have included an impressive number of eye witness reports of just exactly how Joseph went about dictating the text of the BoM to his scribes. None of them mention a bible, and all of them mention only a hat and a stone. My purpose here is not to debate the issue of the seerstone, but rather to show you that an organization that is dedicated to the same cause you are has shown your theory to be impossible.
http://www.irr.org/MIT/divination.html

Now, were there bibles present in the Smith family in 1829? Absolutely. So, if you want to claim that maybe Joseph made the enormous list of names you have provided using the bible, and then memorized every one of them, and then included them in his dictation of the BoM, and managed for noone to notice, then sure you might have a case. But I hope you see the very low probability of this happening.

The point here is that your church repeatedly claims (as you have done), that Smith had no access to materials from which to fabricate the history, geography, and names in the Book of Mormon. It is transparently clear that he did have access to such materials.

If this is your point, then I would like to know where you read such a statement. It is not that I doubt you can provide it, I only wonder where it is you can provide this statement from a legitimate and respected LDS apologist.

As to the question of whether he used these materials or he translated 'reformed Egyptian' from golden plates, we have only to apply a little logic:

* The existence of these materials, and their availability to Smith, is an undeniable fact

* The existence of the 'golden plates' written in 'reformed Egyptian', has never been verified

As to wheter he used these materials or he translated reformed Egyptian from gold plates, we have only to apply a little logic:

*The eye witness accounts that he did not have a bible with him during translation, and the high improbability that he memorized this long list prior to writing the BoM.

*The the x,w,q and F thing; the unlikelihood that he would have not placed a last name in the book; and the fact that 335/337 are hebrew in origin, exactly corresponding to what the BoM claims it is; the 14 official witnesses to the gold plates; numerous other witnesses to the gold plates; the spiritual confirmation of millions around the globe; very strong evidence of semitic style writing, which he could not have possible known.

You do the math.

But hey, it was even easier than that. The Bible commonly used in Smith's era not only included the Apocrypha, but a list of all the names in the Bible, complete with their meanings. So he would only have had to look over that list for 'inspiration'. He didn't need to make any lists or charts of his own.

Well I dont own a bible from 1829 so I cant check your claim. But you would have to prove in the face of contrary evidence that he had this list with him in translation.

Why is that likely, given that he would have been trying to make the book look like an authentic Hebrew document, in which surnames were not used?

What 1829 farm boys knew what an authentic Hebrew document looked like? And yes, he was a poor farm boy.

So, if you want to argue as I have suggested, then I will admit that you might be able to. If that is all you want to prove, then ok. But you would have to admit that the likelihood of this being the case is very small, would require a tremendous amount of planning, and a miraculous memory.

Sargon

Posted: **Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:45 pm**

Sargon wrote:No, the point is that your theory rests on the assumption that Joseph had a bible with him that he actively used in coming up with BoM names. Multiple eye witnesses testified that he had no such materials with him. Im sure you familiar with IRR, and probably have relied on their research for our discussions(an honest assumption, which could be wrong). They are a very dedicated anti-mormon organization. In their attempt to prove that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon using a seerstone and a hat, by some sort of supernatural/demonic means, they have included an impressive number of eye witness reports of just exactly how Joseph went about dictating the text of the BoM to his scribes. None of them mention a bible, and all of them mention only a hat and a stone. My purpose here is not to debate the issue of the seerstone, but rather to show you that an organization that is dedicated to the same cause you are has shown your theory to be impossible.
http://www.irr.org/MIT/divination.html

I'll have to admit, I was completely stunned when I first found out how the BoM was first translated back in the 70's.. Gold plates and magical seerstones in a hat? You have got to be kidding me.. And grown adults are excepting this as truth?? Can't you see how silly this sounds?? I would be embarrassed if I were you to believe in this Disneyland story..

Also, I was in a cult once too, so I can't say that I'm totally pure.. Sargon, you need to face the facts as I did... Then move on..

Posted: **Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:58 pm**

Gman,

I am a bit puzzled at your attitude towards the translation of the Book of Mormon. You have dismissed it as silly and unbelievable, and encourage me to do the same, while at the same time would have me continue to believe that a man walked on water, turned water to wine, and raised himself from the dead.

Sargon

Posted: **Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:04 pm**

Gman,

I finally found some time this evening to look up all the scriptures mentioned above on the topic of Vernal Holley's map of the BoM lands. I found that they indeed do prove his map to be innacurate. It only takes a bit of BoM understanding to see through the confusion.

Allow me to help.

Angola is north of Zarahemla:

Mormon 1:5-6
5 And I, Mormon, being a descendant of Nephi, (and my father's name was Mormon) I remembered the things which Ammaron commanded me.
6 And it came to pass that I, being eleven years old, was carried by my father into the land southward, even to the land of Zarahemla.

Zarahemla is definitely in the land southward.

Mormon 2:3-4
3 And it came to pass that in the three hundred and twenty and seventh year the Lamanites did come upon us with exceedingly great power, insomuch that they did frighten my armies; therefore they would not fight, and they began to retreat towards the north countries.
4 And it came to pass that we did come to the city of Angola, and we did take possession of the city, and make preparations to defend ourselves against the Lamanites. And it came to pass that we did fortify the city with our might; but notwithstanding all our fortifications the Lamanites did come upon us and did drive us out of the city.

Angola is located in the north countries, being north of the south countries, where Zarehemla was located.

Jacobugath is located north of Zarahemla:

3 Nephi 7:12
12 Therefore, Jacob seeing that their enemies were more numerous than they, he being the king of the band, therefore he commanded his people that they should take their flight into the northernmost part of the land, and there build up unto themselves a kingdom, until they were joined by dissenters, (for he flattered them that there would be many dissenters) and they become sufficiently strong to contend with the tribes of the people; and they did so.

Jacob, being the king of this group, led them into the northernmost part of the land.

Mormon 9:9
9 And behold, that great city Jacobugath, which was inhabited by the people of king Jacob, have I caused to be burned with fire because of their sins and their wickedness, which was above all the wickedness of the whole earth, because of their secret murders and combinations; for it was they that did destroy the peace of my people and the government of the land; therefore I did cause them to be burned, to destroy them from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up unto me any more against them.

Jacobugath was the name of the city of the king Jacob. It was located in the northernmost part of the land. Definitely north of Zarahemla.

Alma is north of Lehi-Nephi:

A man named Zeniff, a Nephite, left the land of Zarahemla to dwell among the land of the Lamanites. The Lamanites dwelled in the Land of Nephi, located south of Zarehemla. To show this would not be too difficult, but it is attested to more easily by the map in question.
The king of the Lamanites allowed Zeniff and his people to establish themselves in a region called the Land of Lehi-Nephi. (Mosiah 9:1-6)
After a generation the people of Zeniff became wicked under the wicked king Noah, the son of Zeniff. Alma, a priest of King Noah, was converted to the gospel by the prophet Abinadi. Alma began to preach and baptize near the waters of Mormon, hidden from the knowledge of the King. (Mosiah 18:30-34)
After King Noah discovered them there, they fled north into the wilderness, eventually reaching the land of Zarahemla.
After fleeing for eight days they settled and called their settlement Helam. (Mosiah 23:1-5, 19)
They were discovered by the Lamanites, who placed some of the wicked renegade priests, led by Amulon, of the now deceased King Noah as rulers over them. (Mosiah 23:39)
The righteous people of Helam sought to flee from their wicked masters. They fled in the night to a place they named Alma. (Mosiah 24:18-20)
They then departed from the valley of Alma, and after a 12 day journey arrived in Zarahemla. (Mosiah 24:24-25)

This people fled from the land of Lehi-Nephi in the south eventually arriving in Zarahemla in the north. Along the way they stopped at a place they called Alma. Since they were traveling from the south to the north, Alma was north of Lehi-Nephi.

Zarahemla bordered the Land of Lehi-Nephi
As shown above, the waters of Mormon were located in the land of Lehi-Nephi, in the territory of the Lamanites.

Alma 21:1
1 NOW when Ammon and his brethren separated themselves in the borders of the land of the Lamanites, behold Aaron took his journey towards the land which was called by the Lamanites, Jerusalem, calling it after the land of their fathers' nativity; and it was away joining the borders of Mormon.

Jerusalem should be near or in the Land of Lehi-Nephi.

Morianton is in the land southward
The people of the land of Morianton sought to flee into the land northward, and the path they took was via the narrow neck of land.

Alma 50:29,33-34
29 Therefore, Morianton put it into their hearts that they should flee to the land which was northward, which was covered with large bodies of water, and take possession of the land which was northward.

33 Therefore Moroni sent an army, with their camp, to head the people of Morianton, to stop their flight into the land northward.
34 And it came to pass that they did not head them until they had come to the borders of the land Desolation; and there they did head them, by the narrow pass which led by the sea into the land northward, yea, by the sea, on the west and on the east.

Therefore Morianton was located in the land southward. This is contrary to the map created by Holley.

Ramah/Cumorah in Canada?It is also interesting to note that Mr. Holley proposes that the hill Ramah/Cumorah is in Canada, when Cumorah is insisted by the anti-mormon world at large to be located in New York.

How many?Mr. Holley's map includes a number of cities, lands, and rivers that do not have corresponding locations on it's opposite map. This might be an attempt to make it appear worse than it really is, or it may be just that he thought we would enjoy a lesson in New England geography.
The place-names that have corresponding locations on both maps include:

Jacobugath/Jacobsburg
Jerusalem/Jerusalem
Valley of Alma/Alma
Shilom/Shiloh
Kishkumen/Kishkiminetas Junction
Lehi-Nephi/Lehigh County
Onidah/Oneida Castle
Angola/Angola
Morianton/Moravianton
Teancum/Tecumsah
Ramah/Rama
Moron/Morin
Ogath/Agathe
Ephraim/Ephraim
Shurr/Sherbrooke

Conclusion
While Holley's map is interesting, it is far from being an accurate reflection of the Book of Mormon lands. Of the 15 place names proposed to have been taken straight from the New England map, 5 of them are in the wrong place according to the Book of Mormon. That is 1/3, or 33%. Certainly that qualifies as “many”. And these are not the only problems with Holley's map, others not so obvious exist. But these suffice to show that Holley's map is not an honest portrayal of the Book of Mormon lands.

At the least we should remember that correlation is not causality.

Sincerely,

Sargon

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2006 10:20 pm**

Sargon wrote:Gman,

I am a bit puzzled at your attitude towards the translation of the Book of Mormon. You have dismissed it as silly and unbelievable, and encourage me to do the same, while at the same time would have me continue to believe that a man walked on water, turned water to wine, and raised himself from the dead.

Sargon

Sargon,

You totally missed my point here... When I was talking about how the Book of Mormon was translated, I was comparing it to how the Bible was translated.. The Bible was NOT translated by magical stones or on golden plates.. Scribes wrote down the words of God either through divine revelation, inspiration, or in direct contact with God...

Also, it was never written down on gold plates... It was written on animal hides or papyrus... Why? Because people would have been less apt to steal them where as gold is much more valuable...

I will address your other section when I get back...

Posted: **Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:01 pm**

Sargon wrote:While Holley's map is interesting, it is far from being an accurate reflection of the Book of Mormon lands. Of the 15 place names proposed to have been taken straight from the New England map, 5 of them are in the wrong place according to the Book of Mormon. That is 1/3, or 33%. Certainly that qualifies as “many”.

It wouldn't matter to me if all of them were 'in the wrong place'. The facts you are avoiding are:

* This debunks thoroughly your claim that Smith could not have derived those names from anything in his personal experience

* Some 66% of the names are in the right place (even if I accept your analysis, which I do not), and if 33% can be classified as 'many', then I'm afraid that 66% more than qualifies as 'most''

So we can say without doubt that Smith's personal experience provided him with abundant sources for personal and place names for the Book of Mormon, and that of the place names a significant number of them are depicted as in the same place as their New England sources.

At the least we should remember that correlation is not causality.

We're not talking about a causal relationship, we're discussing whether or not Smith's experience provided him with sources for the personal and place names in the Book of Mormon. The answer to that is 'Yes, most certainly and in great abundance' (you still haven't dealt with the other list I gave, which is a couple of pages long).

Posted: **Sat Dec 23, 2006 10:07 pm**

I wish you all a very merry Christmas. Though we may not agree on varying points of theology, one thing we do agree on is that Christ is the Lord, and celebrating his birth gives us a chance to remember that we at least agree on some things.

This debunks thoroughly your claim that Smith could not have derived those names from anything in his personal experience

Actually, I don't recall having ever said that. I have only pointed out that the map is not accurate.

So we can say without doubt that Smith's personal experience provided him with abundant sources for personal and place names for the Book of Mormon, and that of the place names a significant number of them are depicted as in the same place as their New England sources.

I wont deny that with enough searching one might come up with evidence that Joseph possibly could have found a way to produce so many hebrew sounding names. But I see no reason to conclude that "without a doubt" Smith's personal experience led him to the names in question. We have no evidence that he had any knowledge of the cities on that map. Certainly he should have heard of a few of them, but there is no reason to believe he knew of all them on that map. Also, we have no reason to believe he knew where any of them were located. We would have to find evidence that he studied a map of New England while writing the Book of Mormon. So, there definitely is room for a doubt.

(you still haven't dealt with the other list I gave, which is a couple of pages long).

I thought we had lightly discussed that. You claim that he copied the names from the bible, simply altering many of them. But you have shown no evidence to prove that without a doubt he had a list of biblical names available to him. I have shown that all eye witnesses make no mention of a bible being used during translation. Simply claiming that some bibles in his era had lists of names in them is not proof that he had one such bible, nor that he used one.

So what you are showing, is that there could possibly be an unlikely source for the names, excluding the possibility of the BoM actually being an authentic record. But you have not been able to prove that any of those hypothesis are actually correct.
If your quest was only to show that there was a way for him to come up with those names, then I thought I had already admitted so much 2 posts ago.

Gman wrote:

Sargon,

You totally missed my point here... When I was talking about how the Book of Mormon was translated, I was comparing it to how the Bible was translated.. The Bible was NOT translated by magical stones or on golden plates.. Scribes wrote down the words of God either through divine revelation, inspiration, or in direct contact with God...

I sure did miss your point. I saw nothing indicating that that was your point. I apologize if I was not astute enough. You are correct in stating that the bible was not translated in the same manner that the Book of Mormon was. But if your point is that the BoM was translated by a strange and unbelievable method, then I refer you to my previous response to your original remark.

Also, it was never written down on gold plates... It was written on animal hides or papyrus... Why? Because people would have been less apt to steal them where as gold is much more valuable...

Actually, much evidence has been discovered proving that records were commonly kept on metal plates. And it is thought that the BoM plates were not pure gold, if they were gold at all. They were gold in color though, hence the "golden plates".

I hope you all have a merry Christmas. May the Lord bless you.

Sargon

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