Evidence for God from Science

FFC wrote:

NIV - Luke 23:56 wrote:
Then they went home and prepared spices and perfumes. But they rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment.

Hadn't Christ, God, told them they were no longer under OT law?

No, cause they still were at that point. It wasn't until Christ preformed His duty as the ultimate sacrificial lamb, fulfilling the law, that the NT began. I agree that we should try to keep the 10 commandments even though it is impossible, but not to save us or keep us saved but as an act of grateful worship. Jesus told the woman at the well that there would come a day when it wouldn't matter where God was worshipped, because God is a Spirit and they that worship Him should worship Him in Spirit and in truth.

Jesus was not just a safety net.

What do you mean?...Christ had died by this point. He surely told them, "As soon as I die...throw those nasty 10 away and bury them forever. They're useless."
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BavarianWheels wrote:

FFC wrote:

NIV - Luke 23:56 wrote:
Then they went home and prepared spices and perfumes. But they rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment.

Hadn't Christ, God, told them they were no longer under OT law?

No, cause they still were at that point. It wasn't until Christ preformed His duty as the ultimate sacrificial lamb, fulfilling the law, that the NT began. I agree that we should try to keep the 10 commandments even though it is impossible, but not to save us or keep us saved but as an act of grateful worship. Jesus told the woman at the well that there would come a day when it wouldn't matter where God was worshipped, because God is a Spirit and they that worship Him should worship Him in Spirit and in truth.

Jesus was not just a safety net.

What do you mean?...Christ had died by this point. He surely told them, "As soon as I die...throw those nasty 10 away and bury them forever. They're useless."
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lol. Not in so many words...but Paul did say something about the law bringing death, did he not? That does include the 10 commandments. Death? Doesn't sound good to me. There must be something to that...but what could it be? Grace perhaps?

The penalty for breaking the law in the O.T. was death. Christ did away with the PENALTY, not the law itself.

BavarianWheels wrote:What is it you say was the dividing line? It seems the "law" being spoken of here is circumcision...and not the decalogue. Of course Christ even says HImself, "The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath."...no Jew mentioned there. The Sabbath being part of the decalogue. Which part of the decalogue do you believe is for the Jew only?

How did they know Gentiles from Jews? Circumcision. That's the dividing line.

Really? The law of circumcision (one commandment) is "the law of commandments contained in ordinances" that Eph. 2:14-15 says was done away with in order to break down the dividing wall? I think that interpretation leaves a little to be desired.

You're right, of course, that circumcision stands out as a prominent sign of the whole covenant relationship between God and Israel (which is the real dividing wall). As does the Sabbath--see Ex. 31:13, 16-17, Ezek. 20:12.

With respect to your question, which part of the decalogue is for the Jew only, this is a little misleading because you use the word "for" as if it only had one possible meaning. That's a little like asking if Ex. 12 (the section about the Passover) is for the Jews only. Or if Gen. 12 (God's promise to bless Abraham's seed) is for the Jews only. To answer that you have to define what you mean by "for", whether you are talking about a direct application, or a general application. In the more general sense, all of Scripture is "for" all people, in the sense that it is profitable, God intends us to learn from it, etc.

I believe the Mosaic covenant (i.e., the OT law including all of the Ten Commandments) is "for" all of us in this general sense, but only directly applicable to the Jews who were living under it. And please don't accuse me of implying then it's alright to murder, steal, lie, etc., because I already made it clear that I do not believe that, and I would never, ever imply such a thing. I just don't believe it is the Ten Commandments that make those things wrong for us. Rather, they were wrong all along, and God included restrictions against them in His covenant with the Jews, but they are also wrong for those of us who are not under that covenant.

I'll try to get to your other points later.

Good to see you back, Ed. One question. You say you think the Mosaic covenant is for all of us, but only applicable to the Jews. Please explain what you mean here.

FFC wrote:lol. Not in so many words...but Paul did say something about the law bringing death, did he not? That does include the 10 commandments. Death? Doesn't sound good to me. There must be something to that...but what could it be? Grace perhaps?

The Law ONLY brings death to those who transgress it. It is not a "ministry of death" to Christ as he was a perfect keeper of the Law, but since He took upon Himself OUR sins, He died to it's "ministry" for us.

In fact, doesn't Paul somewhere state something to the effect, "...we uphold the law..."

NIV - Romans 3:31 wrote:Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Of course he only meant 9 of the 10...right?
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jenna wrote:The penalty for breaking the law in the O.T. was death. Christ did away with the PENALTY, not the law itself.

Christ fulfilled the law because nobody could ever keep it. I'm not saying we shouldn't strive to keep the 10 commandments, I'm just saying that it is not a salvation issue anymore. It is finished. Christ did it all.

FFC wrote:

jenna wrote:The penalty for breaking the law in the O.T. was death. Christ did away with the PENALTY, not the law itself.

Christ fulfilled the law because nobody could ever keep it. I'm not saying we shouldn't strive to keep the 10 commandments, I'm just saying that it is not a salvation issue anymore. It is finished. Christ did it all.

Just because Christ fulfilled the requirements of the law for us, doesn't give us the right to disregard the law by putting aside one of the ten as "OT and no longer useful". Paul upheld the law as he himself states. (again)

NIV - Romans 3:31 wrote:Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

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BavarianWheels wrote:

FFC wrote:lol. Not in so many words...but Paul did say something about the law bringing death, did he not? That does include the 10 commandments. Death? Doesn't sound good to me. There must be something to that...but what could it be? Grace perhaps?

The Law ONLY brings death to those who transgress it. It is not a "ministry of death" to Christ as he was a perfect keeper of the Law, but since He took upon Himself OUR sins, He died to it's "ministry" for us.

In fact, doesn't Paul somewhere state something to the effect, "...we uphold the law..."

NIV - Romans 3:31 wrote:Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Of course he only meant 9 of the 10...right?
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If you can keep even one, more power to you...I'll bow down and worship you.

Sorry, I don't agree with this totally. In Matt. 5:18, Christ says that until heaven and earth pass away, the law will be in effect. Heaven and earth were still here last time I looked.

If we can keep even one? On your knees, FFC! I have never murdered anyone.

jenna wrote:If we can keep even one? On your knees, FFC! I have never murdered anyone.

I find it hard to believe that you have never hated anyone...Jesus said it is the same as murdering them. You need to try harder than that.

jenna wrote:Sorry, I don't agree with this totally. In Matt. 5:18, Christ says that until heaven and earth pass away, the law will be in effect. Heaven and earth were still here last time I looked.

Yes, and the purpose of which is to remind us of our utter dependence on Him and not on ourselves for keeping the law.

FFC wrote:

jenna wrote:If we can keep even one? On your knees, FFC! I have never murdered anyone.

I find it hard to believe that you have never hated anyone...Jesus said it is the same as murdering them. You need to try harder than that.

No, not really. I have disliked and been angry and hurt, yes. Hated? No, even during times of abuse, I haven't hated anyone. I have hated the actions taken, but never the person. But you do make an excellent point!

edwardamo wrote:Really? The law of circumcision (one commandment) is "the law of commandments contained in ordinances" that Eph. 2:14-15 says was done away with in order to break down the dividing wall? I think that interpretation leaves a little to be desired.

You're right, of course, that circumcision stands out as a prominent sign of the whole covenant relationship between God and Israel (which is the real dividing wall). As does the Sabbath--see Ex. 31:13, 16-17, Ezek. 20:12.

The Sabbath is a dividing line between those who love God (Ex. 16:28,29 - John 14:15) and God doesn't change(Psalm 89:30-34)

edwardamo wrote:With respect to your question, which part of the decalogue is for the Jew only, this is a little misleading because you use the word "for" as if it only had one possible meaning. That's a little like asking if Ex. 12 (the section about the Passover) is for the Jews only. Or if Gen. 12 (God's promise to bless Abraham's seed) is for the Jews only. To answer that you have to define what you mean by "for", whether you are talking about a direct application, or a general application. In the more general sense, all of Scripture is "for" all people, in the sense that it is profitable, God intends us to learn from it, etc.

Exactly what I asked, "Which part of the decalogue do you believe is for the Jew only?" If the Law, as you would have us believe is/was given to the Jew and the Jew only, why are you keeping or even upholding ANY of it? You CANNOT call one part of God's only written Word as good and another part not necessary. I would like to see you utter the Words to God, "Your Sabbath day (the blood sacrifice of Abel) is not what I want to give. I'll then give you instead Sunday (the fruit sacrifice of Cain). God has made his law clear. There is no ambiguity. Remember the Sabbath...not remember any day YOU wish to give me.

edwardamo wrote:I believe the Mosaic covenant (i.e., the OT law including all of the Ten Commandments) is "for" all of us in this general sense, but only directly applicable to the Jews who were living under it. And please don't accuse me of implying then it's alright to murder, steal, lie, etc., because I already made it clear that I do not believe that, and I would never, ever imply such a thing.

Logic compels me to confront such a statement. How can one part of God's own handwriting be good and another be not good? You uphold 9, but throw out the 4th because, "it's only applicable to the Jews" when Christ clearly stated, "The Sabbath was made for man..."

edwardamo wrote:I just don't believe it is the Ten Commandments that make those things wrong for us. Rather, they were wrong all along, and God included restrictions against them in His covenant with the Jews, but they are also wrong for those of us who are not under that covenant.

How so? Do you think without God there is law? There isn't. It's called survival of the fittest and those who don't "kill" die...those who obey the "law" of the land (kill or be killed) survive another day. There only exists law BECAUSE of God. Cosmological order only exists because of God...for anything existing is due to God. If one part of what God gave is unnecessary, the the whole of it is unnecessary as God isn't so short-sighted that He'd make a mistake in His utterances. (Psalm 89:34)
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