Evidence for God from Science

B. W. wrote:These words were spoken by Jesus Christ and he seemed to think these were extremely important.

I wonder why this kind of thinking doesn't permeate to all aspects of what God/Jesus said and wrote?
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catherine wrote:Hi B.W, I am happy to answer your question - I have always been anti-abortion. I couldn't put it any better than David Psalm 139:13-16. I am drafting a reply for you and I'll try to keep it brief.

Amen so am I...

so we have something in common a respect for life...

God bless...
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BavarianWheels wrote:

B. W. wrote:These words were spoken by Jesus Christ and he seemed to think these were extremely important.

I wonder why this kind of thinking doesn't permeate to all aspects of what God/Jesus said and wrote?

Mr. P tried the same approach stating that not only I was, but everyone agreeing with the Orthodox Christian position, are dummies cause we do not obey Christ by literally cutting off our hands, arms, legs to avoid hell but only Mr P was more enlightened and thus the only purveyor of biblical truth concerning this matter.

I am afraid that logic will not wash here. It instead mocks Jesus — not me. Please do not down play the seriousness of the words of Christ. Remember, just who's words are being poo poo-ed and by whom. People are intelligent enough to understand the metaphor of cutting off limbs Jesus used:

People love sin so much that they will not cut off the causes to sin and stop sinning. When enticed to sin, we must cut-off that desire and flee from sin. If our hand reaches to sin — cut it off — stop it — don't do it —this is called a metaphor. If that doesn't work, your work to be righteous before God will have to be greater than the Pharisee's — amputation and maimed to avoid hell which is still impossible because it is out of the heart that sin springs, Matthew 15:16-20.

In other words — you need Christ the Savior to avoid hell — not amputations. You need the Holy Spirit within to help cut off sin from ones life and heart. That's the message and a simplified explanation of the Orthodox Christian Position on this very subject. Mr. P mocked this concept and in doing so mocked Christ words on the severity of eternal damnation.

I ask, that you please do not make the same mistake and Cut-it Off, please, with sugar on top, from proceeding any further on this matter. If someone so chooses to make the same mistaken assumptions as Mr. P did, then it would be up to them to disprove that sin springs from the heart and that people run to sin without regard or thought of any eternal consequences as well as that Christ cannot save us from sinning and eternal damnation.
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B. W. wrote:People are intelligent enough to understand the metaphor of cutting off limbs Jesus used:

I guess what you're trying to tell me is that I'm so stupid as to not understand literal vs. metaphor...nice.
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Hi B.W,
I think this topic has three related points to be considered in order to get any understanding about this: what is death and hell? what is a soul? and does God maintain evil people and their suffering in a fiery place for ever? I will try to be brief and to cover the points you have raised as I go along. I haven't referred to all your points but hope my overall explanation covers them.
Your first three paragraphs indicate you had not understood what I had said, or maybe I had not explained myself properly:
The fact that you are 'dead' or no longer in existence,does not mean that's the end of you,or you are forgotten by God:Job 14:13 "Oh that you would hide me in Sheol (The Grave), That you would keep me secret, until your wrath is past, That you would APPOINT ME A SET TIME, AND REMEMBER ME!''. So 2Pet2:9 is in agreement with Job's sentiments I would say!
The scriptures that support my views on death being the opposite of life ie unconsciousness, no longer existing are:

Gen.3:19 - we are going back to our pre created condition.
Eccl3:19- mankind and beasts have same eventuality (although with respect to mankind we have hope of living again, the beasts don't).
Eccl 9:5, 6 and 10 the state of the dead.
Psalm 146:4- go back to pre existence state.
You mentioned Psalm 9:17 - this is a clear, well repeated fact that the wicked go to the grave or sheol as is mentioned here. Death is the punishement for sin. As we are all sinners we all pay the price for sin - DEATH, and the dead go to sheol (the grave, where there is no activity, thoughts etc - the opposite of life in fact). As you note, they are being kept under this punishment until the day of Judgement.
You quote Jude 7 - The Amplified Version says 'The wicked are sentenced to suffer just as Sodom and Gomorrah.......as an exhibit of perpetual punishment of everlasting fire'. This is showing how these cities were punished by literal fire and brimstone. The inhabitants went down to sheol where they await their judgement. The fire and brimstone are truly destructive- the towns were completely wiped out - not rebuildable in any sense, so a symbol of eternal destruction. Fire is used symbolically to represent the absolute and eternal destruction of people. Just as God does not have literal eyes or wings (Psalm 17:8) He does not have a literal place of fire where he puts those who do not love Him. The only scripture which does imply life after death and a place of torment is the story of Lazarus as you note for me. If I were to read just this and not refer to the Hebrew scriptures then I would accept that this could be implying 'consciousness after death', but because of the wealth of other scriptures that say the opposite I need to know for sure what this parable means. If we read this parable literally then we are to believe that certain people when they die, go to a place of comfort, or Abraham's bosom. We know it's not heaven because Jesus himself said no one had ascended into Heaven. But 'a place of comfort' sounds pretty incredible to me. Now if we go there when we die , what is the point of the whole Atonement? I have looked up this parable and I have found many sites that seem to hold the same view which reasonably and clearly presents this parable to mean this:
the Richman represents the Jews and Lazarus the other Gentile nations. I won't go into too many details but I can show you some links if you wanted to check this out thoroughly. Trying to condense it down, Jesus was showing the spiritual gulf between the Pharisees and how they will lose favour or their privelliged position. The tables will be reversed if you like and the Gentiles will be the ones to gain this favour. This did happen as Jesus foretold at Matt 21:43. Another thing that worries me is the rich man wants to warn his family so they don't have the same fate. I know a lot of us are guilty of being similarly 'rich' and not helping the poor. I've walked past beggars and done nothing. I'm living a life of luxury (my cupboards are full of food, I dine sumptuously compared to starving people and I can sit at my computer and enjoy my privelleged life. I haven't sold all my stuff (computer included) and given it to the poor. Would God torment this man FOREVER, when he is clearly sorry for what he did?
YOu also mention Jude 4 (not sure if I'm included as a false brethren). I am in no way denying the effective work and purpose of Jesus Christ. He gives us eternal life, he brings us back from death. He reverses the effects of death and sin. Surely, His sacrifice is even more so amazing when you consider that you don't go on living after death in a paradise like place but you really are dead!! It's so frustrating that you can't see this point!!! You are correct when you say that people cannot kill or annihilate the soul, as I quoted earlier, only God can do that as you quote in Luke 12:4-5. You then go on to mention Revelation. Most of Revelation is symbolic, (unless of course there are those who believe in a literal dragon, or harlot. It's mainly symbolism, and the lake of fire, as I stated earlier, is SYMBOLIC of everlasting destruction. We will have to differ on what we believe DESTRUCTION to mean. You are right that the force of the word 'tormented day and night' does suggest consciousness, but the Bible has shown us clearly that the dead are unconciousness, so again this is symbolism.

Moving on to the second point about 'what is a soul' I believe a creature whether animal or human BECOMES a living soul, that is the physical body has God's spirit breathed into it: as Genesis says 1:7 'and man BECAME a living being (nephesh)' Amplified bible. I have added nephesh in brackets. We don't receive a soul at our creation, we become souls and souls die:
Ezek.18:4- a sinning soul dies.
Isai.53:12- soul poured out to death.
Gen 9:5 - talks of blood of souls (soul meaning life)
Josh 11:11 - souls being struck (killed)
Gen 1:20,21,24,25 use nephesh when referring to the animals. There are lots of other sciptures that use the word nephesh as clearly meaning 'life' e.g Lev24:17,18.
I started to wonder what the Jews had believed about the soul and found this reference: 'The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture' The Jewish Encyclopedia (1910) vol V1, p.564. I also found other mentions of this whole debate, and found they are divided on this subject too. There is talk of Hellenism, and pagan beliefs creeping into Judaism but again, I can let you have the links if you so wish.

This brings me to the third point of being tortured or rather punished in a place that is seperate from God forever and ever. As I said earlier, I believe the Lake of fire etc to be symbolic of eternal destrucion or death. I don't think I can add more to this than I already said in my last post. I believe the idea that God will maintain people in their self made pain and suffering for ever and ever is so contrary to God as a fair and loving Father, that it's no wonder people like Dawkins throw the baby out with the bath water. I for one would struggle to trust in a God like that - that weighs 70 years or so of a human life against an eternity of suffering. He will put them out of their misery.
To conclude: sin causes us to die, we do not carry on living as the Devil claimed to Adam and Eve-that they wouldn't die if they disobeyed God. God put a plan into place straight away to redeem man so that he could live again (Gen3:15). Those of His creation who don't want to avail themselves of His redemption plan ie Jesus, will not receive immortality. Immortality, is the REWARD given to those who are faithful or accept Jesus. Even though we are dying at the minute and still have our mortal, corruptible bodies, we have eternity in our hearts, that is the belief that what is mortal will one day put on immortality. Only perfect, sinless beings can live forever - so if you are neither and you are unrepentant and do not accept God and Jesus, then you will forfeit your chance of living forever and you will remain in your sins which means death. You will receive your Judgement by God and go off into everlasting punishment (death). Immortality is for those who have been tested and made perfect through Jesus and receive an immortal spirit body like Jesus's when He was resurrected.
You think Eternal Non Existence is nothing to fear. I beg to differ, true if when I die I never woke up again, then I wouldn't know (it's hardly bliss if you don't know). Everyone is going to be 'woken up' at the resurection and Judgement and when they realise what they have lost and see their loved ones safe and loved their sorrow will be so terrible I shudder to even think about it. Their punishment is going to be eternal: they will never be brought back to life or given another chance. Matt 10:28 we know that Hell is the grave, and Jesus is warning of losing your chance of life again. I hope this clarifies my position and I await your feedback.....Catherine

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I like that catherine.

Not to mention Jesus Himself completely missed a golden opportunity to teach His followers (and us) about death in raising Lazarus from the dead. Wouldn't it have been better for Jesus to leave Lazarus in heaven already having been in the tomb for four days (John 11:17) Not only that...but why would Jesus want to "wake" him up? (John 11:11). Martha seems to understand that her brother was dead...dead...not alive in heaven. (John 11:24)

The next telling text is John 11:35. Why, if Lazarus was alive in heaven, would Jesus weep?

Of course I believe Jesus didn't miss this opportunity, but DID teach us about death. That being that Lazarus was plainly in the tomb and not in heaven or a bosom...but D-E-A-D, dead. (John 11:14) He taught us that death is not about being happy (John 11:35) for the death, but on the contrary, reason for the Son of God to weep for his friend that is dead.

Many lessons to be learned from Christ's words and actions.

B.W. wrote:These words were spoken by Jesus Christ and he seemed to think these were extremely important.

I would go as far as to say, ANY words spoken by Jesus to be extremely important...including His actions.
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BavarianWheels wrote:Wouldn't it have been better for Jesus to leave Lazarus in heaven already having been in the tomb for four days (John 11:17) Not only that...but why would Jesus want to "wake" him up? (John 11:11). Martha seems to understand that her brother was dead...dead...not alive in heaven. (John 11:24)

This is a non sequitur as before the death and resurrection of Jesus no one had entered heaven so Lazarus could not have been in it.

catherine wrote: You are right that the force of the word 'tormented day and night' does suggest consciousness, but the Bible has shown us clearly that the dead are unconciousness, so again this is symbolism.

Catherine,

Can you explain to us why necromancy is forbidden in the Bible?

HI Byblos, I believe we should not 'contact the dead' or deal in any form of witchcraft because there can only be one source of these 'spirits': 2Cor11:14,15. My previous post cited many of the scriptures that tell us the condition of the dead. Just as we were told not to worship idols or other Gods (pagan practices of the time) we have been warned about the severity of dealing with demons. If we take for example the account of Saul in 1 Sam28:3-20 as literal and the dead being able to contact the living, then it would be logical to assume the account of the Richman and Lazarus to be literal as well, but this account is saying that the dead cannot leave their respective places ie Abraham's bosom and Hell. Many years ago, I dabbled in Spiritualism when I believed the lie about life after death. Luckily I only went two or three times and felt too wary. One of my friends had a 'message' about her dead father. At that time she had believed him to be dead. It transpired that her dad had done a disappearing act for insurance money. When she was given this message 'in good faith' she sincerely believed her dad was dead and was amazed at this 'message'. When she got over the initial shock of finding out her dad was alive, she remembered the message and realised that the 'spirit' must have been a demon, or fallen angel. It could well have been a load of codswallop, but as the Bible clearly states that the dead no nothing and are conscious of nothing, it points the finger at the fallen angels or in many cases deceiving lying humans (Derren Brown demonstrated how people can trick and deceive people- he was very convincing as a medium - check out his web site).

catherine wrote:HI Byblos, I believe we should not 'contact the dead' or deal in any form of witchcraft because there can only be one source of these 'spirits': 2Cor11:14,15. My previous post cited many of the scriptures that tell us the condition of the dead. Just as we were told not to worship idols or other Gods (pagan practices of the time) we have been warned about the severity of dealing with demons. If we take for example the account of Saul in 1 Sam28:3-20 as literal and the dead being able to contact the living, then it would be logical to assume the account of the Richman and Lazarus to be literal as well, but this account is saying that the dead cannot leave their respective places ie Abraham's bosom and Hell. Many years ago, I dabbled in Spiritualism when I believed the lie about life after death. Luckily I only went two or three times and felt too wary. One of my friends had a 'message' about her dead father. At that time she had believed him to be dead. It transpired that her dad had done a disappearing act for insurance money. When she was given this message 'in good faith' she sincerely believed her dad was dead and was amazed at this 'message'. When she got over the initial shock of finding out her dad was alive, she remembered the message and realised that the 'spirit' must have been a demon, or fallen angel. It could well have been a load of codswallop, but as the Bible clearly states that the dead no nothing and are conscious of nothing, it points the finger at the fallen angels or in many cases deceiving lying humans (Derren Brown demonstrated how people can trick and deceive people- he was very convincing as a medium - check out his web site).

You may be correct on this.

Whom do you think appeared then with Jesus at the Mount of Transfiguration and how?

Byblos wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:Wouldn't it have been better for Jesus to leave Lazarus in heaven already having been in the tomb for four days (John 11:17) Not only that...but why would Jesus want to "wake" him up? (John 11:11). Martha seems to understand that her brother was dead...dead...not alive in heaven. (John 11:24)

This is a non sequitur as before the death and resurrection of Jesus no one had entered heaven so Lazarus could not have been in it.

Really. Let's look back to see Jesus' logically fallible words to His disciples:

NIV - Matthew 10:7-8 wrote:As you go, preach this message: `The kingdom of heaven is near.' Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,* drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

**Jesus' logically fallible words in bold**

So before Jesus' death, there is "reason" to raise the dead...but after His death what is the reason if the dead are already with Him?????????

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Hi Canuckster

I think one of two things is happening here: Jesus told the disciples that some of them would see the Son of Man coming in His Kingdon (Matt 16:28). When Jesus was transfigured (I don't know what that really is???) and Moses and Elijah appeared alongside Him, this was either a vision of a future event as Heb 11:39 says they had not received the promise up to that point, or maybe they had been resurrected for the transfiguration. I see no problem with either, but favour the first. I may be wrong though....what do you think??

BavarianWheels wrote:

Byblos wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:Wouldn't it have been better for Jesus to leave Lazarus in heaven already having been in the tomb for four days (John 11:17) Not only that...but why would Jesus want to "wake" him up? (John 11:11). Martha seems to understand that her brother was dead...dead...not alive in heaven. (John 11:24)

This is a non sequitur as before the death and resurrection of Jesus no one had entered heaven so Lazarus could not have been in it.

Really. Let's look back to see Jesus' logically fallible words to His disciples:

NIV - Matthew 10:7-8 wrote:As you go, preach this message: `The kingdom of heaven is near.' Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,* drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

**Jesus' logically fallible words in bold**

So before Jesus' death, there is "reason" to raise the dead...but after His death what is the reason if the dead are already with Him?????????

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Classic confusion of physical death and spiritual death.

Byblos wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:

Byblos wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:Wouldn't it have been better for Jesus to leave Lazarus in heaven already having been in the tomb for four days (John 11:17) Not only that...but why would Jesus want to "wake" him up? (John 11:11). Martha seems to understand that her brother was dead...dead...not alive in heaven. (John 11:24)

This is a non sequitur as before the death and resurrection of Jesus no one had entered heaven so Lazarus could not have been in it.

Really. Let's look back to see Jesus' logically fallible words to His disciples:

NIV - Matthew 10:7-8 wrote:As you go, preach this message: `The kingdom of heaven is near.' Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,* drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

**Jesus' logically fallible words in bold**

So before Jesus' death, there is "reason" to raise the dead...but after His death what is the reason if the dead are already with Him?????????

Classic confusion of physical death and spiritual death.

Convenient answer. Of course Jesus did only one...heal spiritually.

I'm not confused that Christ raised Lazarus physically...when Lazarus was already a believer.

More confusion on my part would be why a disciple would raise any dead after Christ having died? (see Acts 9:36-43)
While it may've helped some believe, Peter yanked her out of heaven!!

See also Acts 14:6-10 where Paul goes against Christ's words and heals physically.
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BavarianWheels wrote:

B. W. wrote:People are intelligent enough to understand the metaphor of cutting off limbs Jesus used:

I guess what you're trying to tell me is that I'm so stupid as to not understand literal vs. metaphor...nice.
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Not at all - in fact it was Mr. P that implied that about me. In no way was I implying you.

Sorry you took my comment the wrong way.

Re-read Mr. P's toward me again and see how Mr. P's discussion about literal interpretations were directed at me...

I would like not to be attacked that way again...
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