Re: Existential crisis? I don't even know.
Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 8:42 am
I can't believe you wrote that all already. I added to my earlier post, if you'd like to take a look.
"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1)
https://discussions.godandscience.org/
Yes, people like Hitchens are in a state of rebellion, not disbelief. Hitchens doesn't disbelief in God's existence. He just doesn't like Him and refuses to bow. He has made himself the arbiter of truth. The debate with him needs to be less about God's existence and more about his utter rebellion and self-righteousness.cslewislover wrote:Ok, now I've read them. The debate I saw between Craig and Hitchens comes to mind. Craig used logic to show that God exists, and as far as I could tell, he won the debate. Hitchens didn't care about the logic of God's existence. He was concerned about the logic of evil, about morals. Hitchens thinks his own morals are better than God's, so that's it. Whether God can be shown to exist logically didn't matter to him, he simply could not have faith in the God of the bible.
I'll confess I haven't read through your whole post, but I'll address this before the rest.Why are we to defend our faith only to the sincere?
Please. Is that whay I am saying? No more than you are saying intellectual belief is saving faith. Still, I can't help but think of the Ethiopian who was left with nothing but the Holy Spirit and the scriptures as Philip was taken away. In every situation of salvation in the scripture we see the flow of God, not the ability of man. Peter on the day of pentecost, the Ethiopian, etc. The disciples did not sit in the upper room studying philosphy and speaking in foreign languages. No, they prayed and were available to the power of God. They were a glove into which the hand of God fit.We should simply declare "PLACE YOUR FAITH IN CHRIST FOR ETERNAL LIFE!" and no more and let God do the rest. But you know it takes more than that. And what is that "more"? It is your method.
Says who. He reasoned with them to turn (repent) from idolatry. He did exactly what I am saying. He confronted them with their sin. Idolatry. No where does it imply he tried to philosphize them into the Kingdom, or present an apologetics argument. The first recorded words we hear John the Baptist and Jesus preach is REPENT!He REASONED with them, J. Demanding people repent isn't reasoning.
That's insane. Spurgeon, Wesley, the Apostle Paul, Jesus, the list goes on and on.Puritanical preaching does nothing but produce self-righteous pharisees, not believers in Jesus Christ.
My experience is the intellectual excuses are just that. Excuses. Jump one hurdle, guess what? Another is in its place. And they arrise as much over rebellious spirits as sincere questions. There are people who have sincere questions, and we should address them. And I would say that if someone is sincerely seeking, then a work has already begun in them, and they are most assuredly ready to see their sin in light of God's holiness. But many intellectual arguments are rooted in spiritual resistance. Just because someone has intellectual questions, does not mean we should neglect the conscience, which gets to the heart. FWIW, the overwhelming majority of intellectual questions I had, were answered on this side of the faith. In fact I shudder to think of working out those things on the other side of sin.My argument is that, for most people, that choice cannot be made until their intellectual excuses have been removed
Aren't we all like that to a degree, before we are saved? There are none who do good. None who seek after God.Yes, people like Hitchens are in a state of rebellion, not disbelief. Hitchens doesn't disbelief in God's existence. He just doesn't like Him and refuses to bow. He has made himself the arbiter of truth. The debate with him needs to be less about God's existence and more about his utter rebellion and self-righteousness.
Like I said, I use apologetics.Who are you to decide who gets our best defense and who does not? Should we not challenge the insincerity on their insincerity, and should we not present a positive case and demand either refutation or consent? It is playing God to practice apologetics only when people have asked you the Billy Graham question. On the other hand, positive apologetics can lead even insincere to people to ask that. I have experienced that, as I'm sure others have as well.
Now, tell me, J, if the Corinthians were not ready for solid meat but had to be given milk, how much more are unbelievers not ready for meat and must be given the most elementary things of the world--those from the area of general revelation?
Well, you and I might read some of your philisophical arguments and be quite impressed. But to those who are blinded by the enemy,........Kioku had very real questions, and you condemned philosophical answers to his questions. You chose, instead, to point the man to his sin rather than to the Truth.
And many don't know God exists, and many more don't know that Jesus is the Only Way. Salvation is never about moral purity. It is about Whom they are trusting to save them. To demand they trust a Savior about Whom they know nothing is simply absurd.
I have a published story here of someone that was cured of cancer, by prayer. If you hold on, I'll type the whole thing in. By the way, as for everything else you said, it sounds like you've already made up your mind that God, if he exists, is not nice. It also seems that you actually don't know the bible - is this so?roysan78 wrote:No prayer in the history of the world has ever been answered. If someone gets cured from cancer it's the medicine that did it, not God. Same thing goes for everything else. No cancer patient has survived off prayer - ever.
brrrr! what a hopelessly cold place you live in. Remind me to never visit.roysan78 wrote:If that did happen it would have been huge news..I have never heard about it..
The best thing I can describe life is like this
The universe has been here billions of years. You have been dead for billions of years. All of a sudden, mom and dad have intercourse and here you are. You live for 70 years or so, then die.
Basically, life is a episode of nothingness, then you for some 70 years, then you die.
Basically, it's like a empty room that's been there billions of years. All of a sudden, something appears. That something lives for 70 years, then dies out. All remains is that emptyness that has always been.
So you've made up your mind then? Based only on the very basics of what can be seen?roysan78 wrote:If that did happen it would have been huge news..I have never heard about it..
The best thing I can describe life is like this
The universe has been here billions of years. You have been dead for billions of years. All of a sudden, mom and dad have intercourse and here you are. You live for 70 years or so, then die.
Basically, life is a episode of nothingness, then you [live] for some 70 years, then you die.
Basically, it's like a empty room that's been there billions of years. All of a sudden, something appears. That something lives for 70 years, then dies out. All remains is that emptyness that has always been.
I have tried to believe in God but never got any signs.
Never fear, God will judge Hitler. But I wouldn't get too excited, because He will also judge you. You seem to think you are qualified to judge the crimes of men. How about yourself? How would you measure up in the eyes of God? Even you, who denies God, can say, "man I wish there was a God, and a Hell, so dead guys like Hitler could be judged and sent there."It also sucks to know that people like Hitler, Stalin, and so on got away with what they did. There are cases I wish there was a Hell for people like them, but they got away with what they did.
The bible teaches that God resist the proud and gives grace to the humble. Your posts demonstrate your pride. I don't say this to attack you, so I'll show you an example.I have tried to ask God straight up "Give me a sign". Nothing. Have tried everything.
There are some great answers to those questions. My question is, are you sincere about seeking answers? Or, have you made up your mind? There are plenty here who will be glad to help you get those answers. The bible itself contains the answers to those questions.If there is a God, why do crazy diseases like cancer, tumors, etc exist?? Why would God create those??
This seems like a huge leap of faith for me. I can't remember anything from before 1985 and have no idea what is going to happen when I die. To assume that in all probability there is only nothingness at either end of the human experience seems a little hasty. At the very least admit ignorance on the issue.roysan78 wrote:If that did happen it would have been huge news..I have never heard about it..
The best thing I can describe life is like this
The universe has been here billions of years. You have been dead for billions of years. All of a sudden, mom and dad have intercourse and here you are. You live for 70 years or so, then die.
Basically, life is a episode of nothingness, then you for some 70 years, then you die.
Basically, it's like a empty room that's been there billions of years. All of a sudden, something appears. That something lives for 70 years, then dies out. All remains is that emptyness that has always been.
The Bible says it is because this is a war. Not a physical war, but a spiritual war. (eph 6:12) And that in fact we have a real enemy. And that the enemy's goal is to blind the eyes of as many as he can to the truth. (1 cor. 4:3-4) And because of the enemy, they hate God and the reality that their sins have consequences. They are enemies of God through their minds by wicked works. The books that you have read are only proof of that. So, in fact, the books that have contributed to your unbelief actually confirm the claims of the Bible. These attempts to "disprove" are the other reaction of the unbelief you are experiencing. There are basically two courses of this rebellion. Hostility or dispair. The difference is you are being honest about a reality without God. They are not. Strange that it is the concept of a life without God that actually confirms the reality of God. It is unimaginable. Just to think about the statistical possibilities of life originating out of nothing pushes our minds towards Him. The futility of life pushes us to ask, "is there more?" This is all the measure of faith, and light that God has placed within us. Listen.Why would people say such hateful things that God and religion is a fairy tales, lies, and to control the masses?
There are plenty here who have a rich faith life who believe the earth is billions of years old. There is plenty of info on this site to guide you through these questions.Other things include things like the world being billions of years old, not 6,000.