Evidence for God from Science

zoegirl wrote:Age, you consistently misrepresent on Views. None of us is saying that these people should not be taken care of. You act and write as if we are sitting back gleefully wringing on hands at the suffering.

You are representing us as poor Christians, evil and rejecting Christ values and I for one am tired of this!

Whether you support socialism, communism, or democracy doesn't reflect upon one's willingness to be compassionate to the poor. The ultimate point is whether this works!!

The laughable but tragic thing is that obama himself provided a good example of why the government should not directly be involved. Yesterday he blundered out a comment designed originally to dispel the worries that the private companies want be able to compete with the subsidized gov't plan (they wont).

He brought up the Us Post office and how Fed Ex and UPS are making money and it's the US. Postal Service that 13 suffering.... Exactly! the U.S. health care will hemorrhage money just like the US Postal Service but with wl he health care we would only have two op-bins... raise taxes as As it continues to hemorrhage or cut costs and services like the US Post office. But because we will continue to poor money into this, the other companies will not be able to keep up with the subsidized care.

The very fact the most of the members of congress haven't read the bill, don't have any clue what is in it, or cannot promise that we won't have to go on the system is a big flashing red light. they unit even agree to be on the plan... which is rather telling, don't you think?

I certainly disagree with this on principle, but that does not make me any less of a Christian! Nd925 had the best response. Surely we can gather better experts on this matter than some of the goofballs (ahem... Pelosi in Congress.

I'm sorry that reminding you of the millions of suffering and dying people in this country and the Christian right's efforts to maintain a system that doesn't benefit them makes you feel the way you do but I don't see that as any reason to stop saying it. Sweeping it under the rug or shooting the messenger because you don't like to hear it is not a Christian thing to do. This is comparable to the Civil Rights debate of the 60's in my view and I'm the one supporting the black lady's right to ride in the front of the bus to draw an analogy for those that need medical care and can't get it. Food, Water, Air, National Defense so we are not overrun, and Medical Care.

I never said anyone was wringing their hands in glee, as you put it. That's a caricature you drew not me. I don't even believe in caricatures. I find most often this kind of evil is done through simple negligence, misguidedness, greed, ignorance, etc...

You've all had plenty of time to put something together, decades in fact, and you didn't do it. Now it's going to be done for you. And I'm glad. Because millions of poor sick wretches (plenty whom are your Christian brothers and sisters) need it.

My advice is to put your energy into supporting this health care reform movement and not just looking for ways to shut it down so everything can return to "normal" while you talk about esoteric alternatives that you're NEVER going to implement which means nothing changes and a lot of sick suffering Americans, Christians included, suffer and die because of a lack of health care. There is NOTHING normal about that.

Recommended Reading



http://www.amazon.com/Make-Poverty-Pers ... roduct_top

'Make Poverty Personal: Taking the Poor as Seriously as the Bible Does' by Ash Parker.

I'm sorry that reminding you of the millions of suffering and dying people in this country

Where are these millions you are referring too? I would think there would be some sort of news report if there were millions suffering and dying.

Christian right's efforts to maintain a system that doesn't benefit them makes you feel the way you do but I don't see that as any reason to stop saying it. Sweeping it under the rug or shooting the messenger because you don't like to hear it is not a Christian thing to do.

This has nothing to do with Christians trying to maintain a system that doesn't benefit us, it has everything to do with setting up a system that doesn't screw us and all the others that have health insurance. I think everyone agrees that there needs to be changes in our current health care system and the one that Obama came up with isn't it. More people will be hurt by it than will be helped by it. There are currently around 15 million that are legitimately uninsured, not 47 million that is claimed. You can take a look at the census for more on that if you'd like, it's there. So for 15 million uninsured we cause hundreds of millions to suffer. That doesn't make sense to me. Seems to me it would be easier and probably cheaper to give those 15 million Medicaid or Medicare and call it a day.

You've all had plenty of time to put something together, decades in fact, and you didn't do it. Now it's going to be done for you. And I'm glad. Because millions of poor sick wretches (plenty whom are your Christian brothers and sisters) need it.

You've all? Are you referring to the Republicans? You can't blame one party on this. If you recall Clinton was in office for 8 years and got nothing done. Bush Jr, nothing done either, however he was dealing with 9/11 and 2 wars so health care took a backseat. See the trend here? Our government is not capable of creating a health care system that will work. No government is. By the way, I don't claim allegiance to any party.

My advice is to put your energy into supporting this health care reform movement and not just looking for ways to shut it down so everything can return to "normal" while you talk about esoteric alternatives that you're NEVER going to implement which means nothing changes and a lot of sick suffering Americans, Christians included, suffer and die because of a lack of health care. There is NOTHING normal about that.

I support health care reform just not one that is going to do more harm than good. I think you are all for Obama care because of the situation that you are in, not because of the millions that you claim are dying and suffering.

:This has nothing to do with Christians trying to maintain a system that doesn't benefit us, it has everything to do with setting up a system that doesn't screw us and all the others that have health insurance. I think everyone agrees that there needs to be changes in our current health care system and the one that Obama came up with isn't it. More people will be hurt by it than will be helped by it. There are currently around 15 million that are legitimately uninsured, not 47 million that is claimed. You can take a look at the census for more on that if you'd like, it's there. So for 15 million uninsured we cause hundreds of millions to suffer. That doesn't make sense to me. Seems to me it would be easier and probably cheaper to give those 15 million Medicaid or Medicare and call it a day.

-->Absolutely it does. The Christian conservatives, who are the majority of Christiandom in the USA, have done nothing to lobby for or seek to provide medical care for all Americans. In fact, they have supported administrations and policies that run counter to that objective. In my discussions with them, their arguments vary but for one reason or another they are against any solution that has a chance of ever being implemented that would provide medical care for all Americans insisting the government is evil and must be kept to a bare minimum even if that means millions of people suffer without medical care. What I hear them saying is they want a more comfortable system for themselves. A system that ensures they have access to healthcare but does not include the sick, unemployed, and poor in this country. On this subject, they are no better than pagans in my opinion.

We've already looked at the numbers and mine are right and yours are wrong. 78% of the almost 47 million uninsured in this country (revised this year to almost 46 million... the very minor decrease being simply the result of the great attention being given to the issue of healthcare... economically preditable when that occurs but temporary as costs are rising 3x that of real wages) are American citizens. Add in all those underinsured American citizens that have only major medical catastrophic plans and the problem skyrockets http://www.rwjf.org/coverage/digest.jsp?id=11271. I'm a licensed health and life insurance agent in California and have been since the mid 80's. I haven't sold insurance since the late 80's but maintain my license and go through all the continuing education. I understand the industry, how it works, and what's happening.

Go to http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/p60-235.pdf and look at Table C3 'Health Insurance Coverage by Age: 1999 to 2007' and notice under All Ages for 2007 the number of 'Not Covered' (or uninsured) is 45,657,000 people from a population of 299,106,000. Table C2 reveals that only 14,770,000 of those are Latino while 20,548,000 of them are white. Again, American citizens represent 78% of the completely and totally uninsured in this country.

I have no problem with expanding Medicaid to these people. But it's not being done. It wasn't done by any administration and looks to never happen. That means these people suffer and die prematurely without medical care when they fall seriously ill and will continue to until something is done.

"You've all? Are you referring to the Republicans? You can't blame one party on this. If you recall Clinton was in office for 8 years and got nothing done. Bush Jr, nothing done either, however he was dealing with 9/11 and 2 wars so health care took a backseat. See the trend here? Our government is not capable of creating a health care system that will work. No government is. By the way, I don't claim allegiance to any party.

--> Yes I can. I can blame everyone responsible including the Christian right and the Republicans because their negligence is real and observable. They worked hard to defeat Clinton's attempts to get healthcare to all Americans. I'm kind of shocked your forgot that Clinton DID try to do exactly that. Government is capable of creating a health care system that will work. Other governments are providing medical care to their citizens all around the world right now and many of them are doing a relatively good job of it with room for improvement. I've given the stats on this already. The USA spends more of its GDP on medical care to care for less of its citizenry per capita than any of the top ten advanced countries in the world. And costs are soaring 3x that of real wages. Not a hard trend to predict.

:I support health care reform just not one that is going to do more harm than good. I think you are all for Obama care because of the situation that you are in, not because of the millions that you claim are dying and suffering.

-->My advice is to educate yourself with real numbers and statistics on the need for health care reform and get behind our government's attempt to provide it rather than end up before Jesus explaining why you didn't and looking at the millions and millions of untold stories of medical tragedy that resulted because people, like yourself, actively resisted ensuring these people got the care they needed. Supporting a nebulous pie in the sky maybe someday if we can get everything perfect approach is tantamout imo of stopping to discuss the workmanship of various paintings hanging in a burning house rather than helping the people in the house to get to safety so they don't die unnecessarily.

And yes.. the numbers are staggering. You've been living in a safe comfortable dream world Neo. The real world is very different. You should spend some time in it. Come to Los Angeles. I'll hook you up at a mission here.

ageofknowledge wrote:Come to Los Angeles. I'll hook you up at a mission here.

I've helped at the Fred Jordan Mission on Skid Row a couple of times. Great experience!
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BavarianWheels wrote:

ageofknowledge wrote:Come to Los Angeles. I'll hook you up at a mission here.

I've helped at the Fred Jordan Mission on Skid Row a couple of times. Great experience!
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Now you're talking

Good man!

their arguments vary but for one reason or another they are against any solution that has a chance of ever being implemented that would provide medical care for all Americans

If the solutions that are being proposed are anything like Obama care then I understand why.

insisting the government is evil and must be kept to a bare minimum

I believe government should be kept to a minimum. The more we allow them to interfere with our lives, the less freedom we will have.

What I hear them saying is they want a more comfortable system for themselves. A system that ensures they have access to healthcare

I would agree with your statement here if you mean all politicians.

Go to http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/p60-235.pdf and look at Table C3 'Health Insurance Coverage by Age: 1999 to 2007' and notice under All Ages for 2007 the number of 'Not Covered' (or uninsured) is 45,657,000 people from a population of 299,106,000. Table C2 reveals that only 14,770,000 of those are Latino while 20,548,000 of them are white. Again, American citizens represent 78% of the completely and totally uninsured in this country.

You are not looking at everything here. You're not taking into consideration the illegals, the 18 — 24 age demographic of those that choose not to have health insurance, and the others that are in between jobs, just getting jobs, etc that are without coverage temporarily. That really chews down that 47 million. Lets say that you're numbers are correct: Pop. 299,106,000 — Uninsured 45,657,000 = 253,449,000 screwed people. Does that make sense? Is that fair to the 253,449,000 people?

I have no problem with expanding Medicaid to these people. But it's not being done. It wasn't done by any administration and looks to never happen.

You are right it hasn't been done by any administration, why? Again, the government cannot do it and if Obama's plan is passed, that will fail as well. Unfortunately it will more than likely kill the country in the process.

Yes I can. I can blame everyone responsible including the Christian right and the Republicans because their negligence is real and observable.

So it is just the Christian right and the Republicans that are to blame for this?

They worked hard to defeat Clinton's attempts to get healthcare to all Americans. I'm kind of shocked your forgot that Clinton DID try to do exactly that.

Oh yeah right I forgot about that with all the distractions of his shenanigans with a certain intern in the White House all over the news. That did wonders for the moral fiber of this country.

Government is capable of creating a health care system that will work.

No, government is not capable of creating a health care system that will work without including the private sector.

Other governments are providing medical care to their citizens all around the world right now and many of them are doing a relatively good job of it with room for improvement.

Define relatively good job? Waiting months maybe even years for a medical procedure is a relatively good job? Have you spoken to anyone from these countries about their health care system?

I've given the stats on this already. The USA spends more of its GDP on medical care to care for less of its citizenry per capita than any of the top ten advanced countries in the world. And costs are soaring 3x that of real wages. Not a hard trend to predict.

You can't give stats for quality of care.

My advice is to educate yourself with real numbers and statistics on the need for health care reform and get behind our government's attempt to provide it rather than end up before Jesus explaining why you didn't

I will have no problem explaining to Jesus why I didn't get behind our government's attempt to provide health care. Will you have a problem explaining to Jesus why you support an administration that kills unborn babies and supports homosexual marriages?

You've been living in a safe comfortable dream world Neo. The real world is very different. You should spend some time in it. Come to Los Angeles. I'll hook you up at a mission here.

I live in NY so I don't need you to tell me I should spend some time in the real world, I'm in the real world, as real as it gets. I doubt LA is any better or worse than NY.
If I'm ever in LA I'll take you up on that offer.

:If the solutions that are being proposed are anything like Obama care then I understand why.

-->Yes I understand why too. Selfishness, ungrounded fear, a disconnect with the plight of the poor, etc...

:I believe government should be kept to a minimum. The more we allow them to interfere with our lives, the less freedom we will have.

-->As a Church, we are called to not just preach the gospel, but to "do good to all men" as Galatians says. Since Rom. 13 says the government is a means of good, we need to be a part of this huge area of influence. Ensuring the poor get adequate medical care is a perfect example. This correlation the Christian right makes between ensuring poor American citizens get access to medical care and government tyranny is a false one and responsible for much suffering and death in this country to date.

What I hear them saying is they want a more comfortable system for themselves. A system that ensures they have access to healthcare

:I would agree with your statement here if you mean all politicians.

--> No I mean conservatives, Republicans, and the Christian right in general. They are the ones that want to make the system as comfortable for themselves as possible while excluding their poor countrymen.

Go to http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/p60-235.pdf and look at Table C3 'Health Insurance Coverage by Age: 1999 to 2007' and notice under All Ages for 2007 the number of 'Not Covered' (or uninsured) is 45,657,000 people from a population of 299,106,000. Table C2 reveals that only 14,770,000 of those are Latino while 20,548,000 of them are white. Again, American citizens represent 78% of the completely and totally uninsured in this country.

:You are not looking at everything here. You're not taking into consideration the illegals, the 18 — 24 age demographic of those that choose not to have health insurance, and the others that are in between jobs, just getting jobs, etc that are without coverage temporarily. That really chews down that 47 million. Lets say that you're numbers are correct: Pop. 299,106,000 — Uninsured 45,657,000 = 253,449,000 screwed people. Does that make sense? Is that fair to the 253,449,000 people?

--> All of that has been addressed already. The stats I provide are the aggregate including everyone. American citizens comprise 78% of the uninsured in this country, the younger demographic simply cannot afford health insurance in many cases because they make less money as a rule so go without it but some of them develop serious and life threatening medical issues as well while uninsured and have a higher rate of serious accidents. It doesn't chew anything down. These are people that need medical care when they become sick and injured. Under your reasoning, they aren't worthy of it and so should go without while you, of course, should get the best available. Typical Christian right thinking. All for me and none for anyone else because they don't really need it (even though they do). Yes it's fair and even desirable to offer medical care to all Americans. As we've discussed, instead of watching people languish suffering as they become permanently disabeled and die prematurely, it creates a healthy population that can work and pay taxes. What amazes me is how disconnected the Christian right is from such a simple observable reality.

I have no problem with expanding Medicaid to these people. But it's not being done. It wasn't done by any administration and looks to never happen.

:You are right it hasn't been done by any administration, why? Again, the government cannot do it and if Obama's plan is passed, that will fail as well. Unfortunately it will more than likely kill the country in the process.

--> My assertion is that it hasn't happened or even been seriously discussed since 1965 when it was implemented and it looks like that will never be done. So it's off the table from the start. If Obamacare results in medical care for these people than I am for it. I don't believe, as the Christian right does, this will result in 666 being implanted in the foreheads of all Americans with the anti-Christ dancing in the Oval Office. What it will result in is poor Americans getting the medical care they need so they can have a life worth living and return to the working condition.

Yes I can. I can blame everyone responsible including the Christian right and the Republicans because their negligence is real and observable.

So it is just the Christian right and the Republicans that are to blame for this?

--> The "conservatives" (who doubled an enormous deficit that took from Andrew Jackson to Bush Jr. to amass in a mere 8 years mismanaging the country's economy in the process so badly that Bush said we had to "suspend free enterprise to save the free enterprise system") have always been against it. Most Christians in this country are "conservatives."

They worked hard to defeat Clinton's attempts to get healthcare to all Americans. I'm kind of shocked your forgot that Clinton DID try to do exactly that.

:Oh yeah right I forgot about that with all the distractions of his shenanigans with a certain intern in the White House all over the news. That did wonders for the moral fiber of this country.

--> We're talking about medical care for Americans. If you are actually willing to watch them suffer terribly without medical care and die prematurely while actively resisting them getting the medical care they need then you are not on God's side in this matter imo. That is the thinking of a Pharisee. Jesus healed on the Sabbath friend.

Government is capable of creating a health care system that will work.

:No, government is not capable of creating a health care system that will work without including the private sector.

-->Yes they are and yes they already have in many countries around the world. But I really don't care if they include the private sector or not as long as it gets done. I understand Obama is now looking at that option and is back on the table. Fine with me as long as medical care gets out to all Americans.

Other governments are providing medical care to their citizens all around the world right now and many of them are doing a relatively good job of it with room for improvement.

:Define relatively good job? Waiting months maybe even years for a medical procedure is a relatively good job? Have you spoken to anyone from these countries about their health care system?

--> We come in last place as far as penetration of medical care to our citizenry and our system is rife with error, redundancy, corruption like double billing, expense, etc...

:You can't give stats for quality of care.

Sure there are. Primary data is collected all the time both by the government, non-profit, and for-profit organizations.

:I will have no problem explaining to Jesus why I didn't get behind our government's attempt to provide health care. Will you have a problem explaining to Jesus why you support an administration that kills unborn babies and supports homosexual marriages?

-->I would like to hear that explanation because so far you aren't making sense. As for myself: No. Abortion is happening already in every town and city in this country. 22% of all births currently end in abortion. What you are doing is condemning millions upon millions of Americans to a shortened life of immense suffering, permanent disability, and premature death. You support the continuation of this holocaust with the reasoning that unless both holocausts end we won't stop any of them. This is the kind of sick thinking that happens on the Christian Right. Obviously, it is best to bring to an end to one of the holocausts now rather than keep them both in full operation seeking to use your suffering and dying countrymen as some kind of a bargaining chip in your sick game of poker. Homosexual marriage is not tied to medical care.

You've been living in a safe comfortable dream world Neo. The real world is very different. You should spend some time in it. Come to Los Angeles. I'll hook you up at a mission here.

:I live in NY so I don't need you to tell me I should spend some time in the real world, I'm in the real world, as real as it gets. I doubt LA is any better or worse than NY.

--> What part of NY? Long Island? I seriously doubt, based on your posts, you're neighbors are dying on park benches from a lack of medical attention but I've watched that happen in real life out here. I've also watched two men drop and die in front of me due to a lack of medical care for their hearts. In fact, I have pain in my heart radiating out into my left arm and hand and have for about three years now. Maybe I'll be one of them. Thanks brother.

Don't forget the hidden costs of doing nothing - many of the uninsured have no way of getting routine medical care, so many problems aren't picked up until they become critical. Most emergency rooms and clinics will treat the uninsured until they are at least stable. Who picks up the cost of that care? Answer, WE (the insured) do thru higher premiums.

Many of the uninsured use emergency rooms as their primary care provider - and can't/don't pay the resulting bills. Who picks up the cost of that care? Answer, WE (the insured) do thru higher premiums.

I have been on Medicare for a while now, with a good Medigap plan as a backer, so I'm in the roughly 25% of the population (retired, disabled, military, ... ) who is already on a form of government health plan. In the past two years, I've had to have four surgeries (repair a double hernia, repair a torn meniscus in a knee, and two operations to repair a shattered collarbone) and have no complaints whatsoever.

I feel truly sorry for that such as AoK who cannot obtain the medical care they need playing by the rules and who are too just to work the system to attempt to get the care. Those of you who are opposing health care reform ARE aware that the US is about the only industrialized nation that DOESN'T have some form of universal heath care - right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_care

Well last week I finally was approved for Medi-Cal and did see a doctor for the first time in a LONG time. He did a full physical and with deep concern immediately sent me out for xrays for my deformed hands and a long series of blood tests which I ended up passing out on and waking up on the linoleum looking up at the ceiling (They bled the first arm dry and were on the second vein of the second arm so it was due to low blood sugar resulting from so much loss of blood).

He also immediately referred me to a rheumatologist which I'm still waiting for the letter to arrive so I can schedule an appointment with. None of this would have happened if I could have been on a maintenance medicine when the problem began to show itself.

But you have to lose almost everything before you can get MSI Medi-Cal. If you are receiving unemployment and it's over their amount, like in my case, you can twist in the wind for a year like I did without medical care until it's gone. And no you can't get medical care on unemployment if you are uninsurable like I am (I was rejected). It's a mess.

And California's MSI Medi-cal won't fix my deformed hands nor cover expenses other than preventing a condition from worsening. They also don't pay for heart surgery. So I may die from that while on Medi-cal if I am not able to get well enough to begin interviewing for full time work again with my deformed hand and transition to private insurance.

Now I worked and paid taxes dutifully for over twenty-five years. I paid my share from 1981 (actually before that because I worked in high school too) all the way to 12/31/2006 when my tribulations began. Now I need medical care and the conservatives are working hard to ensure I don't get it. The Christian right is in full agreement. Even now I'm on Medi-cal it won't cover my heart nor fix my hands. A recent development by the way. Those that came before me would have had their hands fixed and heart surgerys covered. The conservatives are working hard to ensure we never get fixed.

And we are the nation that people come *to* to get the most advanced care and best care. Hmmm....We don't flock to Sweden or UK or Canada for their health care.

None of us have said we should do nothing. We have said that multiple times. We don't like the plan as it stands. We don't think it will work. Doesn't mean that we shouldn't do anything. There *are* competing bills in Congress right now being offered and *gasp* they aren't getting the coverage. Those who oppose Obama's plan ARE trying to offer reforms but guess what... They are being stopped.

There is no way that a 1200 page bill should be rammed through simply because he says so. He did that with the stimulus bill and he wants to do that with this bill.

Age, I am truly sorry that you are in this mess. I am certainly not saying we shouldn't do anything. I don't think this will work . I truly think there are better options that a hurriedly put together bill based essentially on tom Dachles socialists ideas.

have you applied for disability?

zoegirl wrote:And we are the nation that people come *to* to get the most advanced care and best care. Hmmm....We don't flock to Sweden or UK or Canada for their health care.

None of us have said we should do nothing. We have said that multiple times. We don't like the plan as it stands. We don't think it will work. Doesn't mean that we shouldn't do anything. There *are* competing bills in Congress right now being offered and *gasp* they aren't getting the coverage. Those who oppose Obama's plan ARE trying to offer reforms but guess what... They are being stopped.

There is no way that a 1200 page bill should be rammed through simply because he says so. He did that with the stimulus bill and he wants to do that with this bill.

Age, I am truly sorry that you are in this mess. I am certainly not saying we shouldn't do anything. I don't think this will work . I truly think there are better options that a hurriedly put together bill based essentially on tom Dachles socialists ideas.

have you applied for disability?

Other than a handful of the wealthiest, they go to India actually where it's affordable. I guess you didn't hear. The two countries most responsible for coming to the United States for medical care and other benefits are the poorest from Mexico, first and foremost, followed by China. No European country even makes the list of top ten emigrant countries to the United States.

It will work. And millions upon millions of people will benefit from it that otherwise will suffer without it. Those other plans are mostly compromise solutions that don't reach the poorest most uninsurable citizens in this country. Therefore, they must be discarded.

Show me a plan before Congress that reaches every American with appropiate medical care that's being stopped and provide documentation so we can qualify that. I bet you can't. Even if you could, Obama's plan is the best bet to actually get the job done. If you are successful in killing it, we may never have another opportunity to accomplish this important necessity in our lifetimes. And millions of poor will suffer. And that will be perfectly fine with the Christian right because they will have worked to accomplish that end after which they will continue to ensure it never happens just as they historically always have and are actively doing right now. After all their rhetoric is over, that's really their final solution for the poor.

I beg to differ about who goes where for the care
http://www.forbes.com/2008/05/25/health ... rcing.html

But bottom line, we are talking about different issues. *YOU* are be=ringing up those that travel to India and Thailand for cheap surgeries, whereas I was talking about the advancements. So the issue comes down to COST.

So gee, what is the one thing that Obama's health care will do? I will be on e of the most expensive bills in history.

If the issues if bringing down costs...and other healthcare plans that are on the table. (yes, believe it or not, there are others)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 02933.html

Charles Krauthammer has a good plan. good grief, just radically reforming the malpractice abuses would cut premiums.

With regards to Republican (those nasty evil people who don't care) here oyu go
http://money.cnn.com/2009/06/17/news/ec ... /index.htm

http://www.gopleader.gov/UploadedFiles/ ... utline.pdf

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Health/s ... 941&page=1

http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/na ... 100709.htm

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba669

Don't say that there aren't ideas out there. These are just several that came up with a quick search. But they are not getting heard because all we hear is that if we aren't for Obama's plan then we are evil-doers, mobsters, and of course, we obviously must not be Christian or following Christ. Oh, and he is the only one who has the answers...ceratinly not anyone else.

Now you may say that these won't work...of course that's just it, we are in a government where debate takes place and a free exchange of ideas. I say his won't work (the OCngressional Budget Office essentially showed how expensive his plan would be)...you will essentially declare that the plans above won't work.

Just because he says we must, doesn't mean it will work. You keep saying that it will but you have no basis for this, especially regarding the millions who will have their coverage dropped because companies will pay penalties rather than keep the insurance (and he cannot guarantee that this won't happen). It will not reform any of the malpractice abuses, it is extremely beaurocratic, convoluted, and open to abuses.

:I beg to differ about who goes where for the care
http://www.forbes.com/2008/05/25/health ... rcing.html

--> As of 18 August 2009, the Earth's population is estimated by the United States Census Bureau to be 6.778 billion. The world aggregate mean that article gives of those traveling to a foreign country specifically for medical care is 72,500 per year. Only 40% of them come to the USA which is 29,000. So 29,000 / 6,778,000,000 = 0.000000427% of the world's population comes to the United States seeking medical care each year.

In 2006, the number of immigrants in the United States officially totaled 37.5 million mostly from Mexico (In 2006, 47.2 percent of the foreign born reported Hispanic or Latino origins) and then from China. Many more than 29,000 from that population need health care a year and came here with an eye on getting on Medi-Cal.

So a handful of the wealthiest people in the world come here for medical care along with a lot of poor people seeking to get on Medi-Cal while tens of millions of Americans go without. Your justification for maintaining such a system falls short.

The World Health Organization (WHO), in 2000, ranked the U.S. health care system as the highest in cost, first in responsiveness, 37th in overall performance, and 72nd by overall level of health (among 191 member nations included in the study). Our health care system is 37th in overall performance and the lack of health care in this country is the biggest single factor in our dismal standing of only a 72nd overall healthy population in the world.

:But bottom line, we are talking about different issues. *YOU* are be=ringing up those that travel to India and Thailand for cheap surgeries, whereas I was talking about the advancements. So the issue comes down to COST.

-->Only 29,000 people on the face of the earth per year can afford to come to the United States and pay the highest cost for medical care in the world. And the issue always comes down to covering every American.

:So gee, what is the one thing that Obama's health care will do? I will be on e of the most expensive bills in history.

--> It will cover every American. The unnecessary Iraq War and the bailout caused by the Bush administration's mismanagement of our economy cost much more. And the costs will be brought under control as government begins to muscle them down after taking on its rightful responsibility to ensure each and every American has access to adequate medical care.

:If the issues if bringing down costs...and other healthcare plans that are on the table. (yes, believe it or not, there are others)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 02933.html

Charles Krauthammer has a good plan. good grief, just radically reforming the malpractice abuses would cut premiums.

--> No it would not. I've already responded to that article (3rd from the bottom http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 4&start=75 ).

It simply makes doctor's richer without them having to change anything they are doing. Americans continue to be denied medical care.

:With regards to Republican (those nasty evil people who don't care) here oyu go
http://money.cnn.com/2009/06/17/news/ec ... /index.htm
:http://www.gopleader.gov/UploadedFiles/ ... utline.pdf

-->There is NOTHING in that proposal that provides for poor Americans who are uninsurable or cannot afford medical insurance and can't qualify for Medi-Cal to become insured. There is NOTHING in that proposal to cover entire pools of Americans, like the example I just gave, to have adequate medical care. It certainly wouldn't have covered law abiding American citizens like myself. It is simply the Republicans taking advantage of the situation to create a better situation for themselves. Therefore it must be discarded.

: Don't say that there aren't ideas out there. These are just several that came up with a quick search. But they are not getting heard because all we hear is that if we aren't for Obama's plan then we are evil-doers, mobsters, and of course, we obviously must not be Christian or following Christ. Oh, and he is the only one who has the answers...ceratinly not anyone else.

-->If they don't cover all Americans, and the Republican plans certainly do not, then they fall short of the requirement. Seeking to make your life more comfortable should not even be on the table unless it includes the uninsured poor who are suffering and dying.

:Now you may say that these won't work...of course that's just it, we are in a government where debate takes place and a free exchange of ideas. I say his won't work (the OCngressional Budget Office essentially showed how expensive his plan would be)...you will essentially declare that the plans above won't work.

--> Oh I'm sure that sounds good to someone like yourself that doesn't need medical care and can get it but not to the people suffering and dying out here. We aren't interested in having a referandum on the subject and maybe doing something about it in a 100 years.. or NOT. We want medical care ASAP and in a timely manner and would have had it by now if the Republicans hadn't resisted the idea so they could unnecessarily charge Baghdad and undesirably sell out the country's manufacturing and industrial base. Not aligning yourself with the goal (in fact resisting it) of ensuring all Americans makes you culpable for those many that will suffer and die without it. Culpable.

:Just because he says we must, doesn't mean it will work. You keep saying that it will but you have no basis for this, especially regarding the millions who will have their coverage dropped because companies will pay penalties rather than keep the insurance (and he cannot guarantee that this won't happen). It will not reform any of the malpractice abuses, it is extremely beaurocratic, convoluted, and open to abuses.[/quote]

--> It's a work in progress. In fact, it's being reworked right now. The problem is that the conservatives are attempting to derail any plan that would provide medical care to all Americans. They just want to rework the dismal existing system to make things better for themselves. And the Christian right is their copilot all the way on this one to make sure tens of millions suffer without medical care while they try to make things as comfortable as possible for themselves. This is not something Jesus approves of.

I guess some people don't really want the Government in medical decisions and they don't really want to give the Government to control there medical decisions. The worrying thing is if the government would drop their insurance.



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