Evidence for God from Science

hatsoff wrote:
I don't think anyone has a "saving faith." A corollary to the non-existence of God is that Jesus was never sent by God to atone for man's sin. What I lost is a sincere and openly-professed belief that the Trinitarian God exists.

I read your later post in which you convinced me that you understood the concept of spiritual birth/regeneration/born again/new nature, et al. Of course, as a non-believer, the very idea of «saving faith» is bunk to you. Notice that I said «as a non-believer.» I worded this carefully so as to include agnostics and theists of all stripes, as well as atheists. Indeed, all of you share in the same disbelief of Jesus' atonement and the regeneration of the «heart» by the Spirit. (That is, the changing of one's disposition from one of enmity towards God to one of willingness to please God.) So, how would you explain Paul's remarkable conversion on his trip to Damascus? How did he go from being an unbeliever like you to a believer in just a few days?

The only Christian ritual in which I took part was Holy Communion, and yes, I stopped doing that once I lost my faith. Christians would view an unbeliever's presence at the Lord's table an act of disrespect, and understandably so.

Again, I think you are confusing religion with faith. At best, you had a false faith in works and the assorted mumbo-jumbo of your religion. For what it's worth, I would not view an unbeliever taking communion as an act of disrespect. I'm sure many unbelievers commune every week in churches around the world. As someone once told me, «you have to start somewhere.» For some, that first step may be partaking in rituals, others may read the Bible looking for contradictions, others may...debate Christians on internet forums. You have to start somewhere. It's all good as long as your disposition is one of learning.

FL

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:So, how would you explain Paul's remarkable conversion on his trip to Damascus? How did he go from being an unbeliever like you to a believer in just a few days?

I tend to trust Paul's account over Luke's, so I don't think it happened on the road to Damascus. Wherever it happened, it seems he experienced some kind of religious revelation, traveled to Arabia to think it over, and then went to Damascus, presumably to meet other Christians (Ga 1). I can't say much more about it than that.

Again, I think you are confusing religion with faith. At best, you had a false faith in works and the assorted mumbo-jumbo of your religion.

When I talk about "faith" I'm referring to my belief that Jesus atoned for my sin through his death and Resurrection, among other central doctrines of Christianity. I am not talking about works, rituals, or anything else.

Hey hat...

If the resurrection is a hard one to take, I might have some more material for you.. Just give me a day to get some of the info.

Thanks for your patience.

hatsoff wrote:When I talk about "faith" I'm referring to my belief that Jesus atoned for my sin through his death and Resurrection, among other central doctrines of Christianity. I am not talking about works, rituals, or anything else.

Yes, I understand that that is what you mean. This is the same faith that a mafia boss may have, going to church on Sundays and managing a prostitution ring the rest of the week. That faith is worthless.

When I say «faith» I am talking about the faith coming as a result of spiritual birth. The faith that comes from this changes one's very nature, realigning it towards God and away from the self.

Let's wait for Gman's contribution before taking this further.

FL

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:This is the same faith that a mafia boss may have, going to church on Sundays and managing a prostitution ring the rest of the week.

Well, I didn't run any prostitution rings. Those mistakes which I did make, I felt terribly guilty about them. But I also learned from them, and as a result, I am happy to report that nowadays I make fewer of them.

It seems that your doctrinal convictions somehow prevent you from taking my word for it when I say that I had a sincere belief in the saving power of Christ. You are certainly welcome to your own religious beliefs, of course, but I cannot condone them.

When I say «faith» I am talking about the faith coming as a result of spiritual birth. The faith that comes from this changes one's very nature, realigning it towards God and away from the self.

I freely acknowledge that I have never experienced any spiritual rebirth or divine realignment. I do not believe in such things.

hatsoff wrote:

You are certainly welcome to your own religious beliefs, of course, but I cannot condone them.

Hatsoff, why can't you condone FL's religious beliefs?

DannyM wrote:Hatsoff, why can't you condone FL's religious beliefs?

I have explained to Fürstentum Liechtenstein that I once was a believer in Christianity. However, his own religious beliefs apparently do not allow him to accept that.

hatsoff wrote:

DannyM wrote:Hatsoff, why can't you condone FL's religious beliefs?

I have explained to Fürstentum Liechtenstein that I once was a believer in Christianity. However, his own religious beliefs apparently do not allow him to accept that.

So you once believed in Christ but now don't? Was your belief in Christ something you had come to on your own or was it by default- by birth?

But I notice you say "belief in Christianity" and not belief in Christ...that's a telling difference.

Zoe, Hatsoff said this earlier, which I also missed, "When I talk about "faith" I'm referring to my belief that Jesus atoned for my sin through his death and Resurrection, among other central doctrines of Christianity. I am not talking about works, rituals, or anything else."

I'm wondering whether this "belief" was a belief Hatsoff had come to, or a belief which he had merely been brought up with...

zoegirl wrote:But I notice you say "belief in Christianity" and not belief in Christ...that's a telling difference.

Telling in what way? I have already said that I had "a belief in the saving power of Christ." But it wasn't just that. I believed in God, in the Trinitarian formulation, in original sin, in sola fide, sola Scriptura and sola gratia, in the inspiration of Scripture, in the power of Holy Communion, and a slew of other doctrines. In short, I had a belief in Christianity.

DannyM wrote:So you once believed in Christ but now don't?

Correct.

Was your belief in Christ something you had come to on your own or was it by default- by birth?

Neither. I was born into a Christian family, and was raised in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. However, my belief was my own---not an empty profession. I was extremely enthusiastic to learn more about Christ and the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and so I read a little bit of Christian history, beginning with Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History. I was eager to learn why the LCMS taught what it did, and studied Scripture diligently. I was a big fan of 1 Corinthians, back when I was a teenager---and I suppose I still am, in a different way.

My family shared my enthusiasm. My brother, for instance, went off to St. Louis and was ordained into the LCMS. He spent the next several years pastoring a church in Florida. My parents sent me to a private LCMS school for grades K-8, and were heavily involved in our particular church, St. John in Wheaton, IL. But we each had our own motivations. I was always more concerned with the philosophical side of Christianity, for instance, whereas my parents were interested mostly in Christian living, and my brother in correctness of doctrine.

But anyway, that's probably more information than was needed. Hopefully it includes what you were looking for.

hatsoff wrote:

DannyM wrote:So you once believed in Christ but now don't?

Correct.

Was your belief in Christ something you had come to on your own or was it by default- by birth?

Neither. I was born into a Christian family, and was raised in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. However, my belief was my own---not an empty profession. I was extremely enthusiastic to learn more about Christ and the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and so I read a little bit of Christian history, beginning with Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History. I was eager to learn why the LCMS taught what it did, and studied Scripture diligently. I was a big fan of 1 Corinthians, back when I was a teenager---and I suppose I still am, in a different way.

My family shared my enthusiasm. My brother, for instance, went off to St. Louis and was ordained into the LCMS. He spent the next several years pastoring a church in Florida. My parents sent me to a private LCMS school for grades K-8, and were heavily involved in our particular church, St. John in Wheaton, IL. But we each had our own motivations. I was always more concerned with the philosophical side of Christianity, for instance, whereas my parents were interested mostly in Christian living, and my brother in correctness of doctrine.

But anyway, that's probably more information than was needed. Hopefully it includes what you were looking for.

Not sure if this has been covered, but what was the turning point in your life away from Christianity?

About Christ's history, of course we could go into the Bible and find that Christ showed himself to over 500 witnesses (1 Corinthians 15: 5-8), or firstly women (Luke 24:10, a weak source in those days) but it wasn't just Josephus who talked about Jesus. Others are the following...

1. Cornelius Tacitus (AD 55-120). A Roman historian that recorded references to Christ. The most important one is that found in the Annals, which also mentions Pontius Pilate as Christ's persecutor.

2. Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas (AD 117-138). Another Roman historian that recorded references to Christ. Recorded the riots which broke between the Jews and Romans in the year AD 49 during the investigation of Christ claims.

3. Thallus (AD 52). Historian that references a darkness and earthquake that occurred during Christ's crucifixion, referenced by Julius Africanus.

4. Pliny the Younger (AD 61—112). Roman author that mentions the spread of early Christianity to pagan temples and includes early Christian practices.

5. Emperor Trajan (AD 53-117). Gave some of the first Roman views about early Christianity and corrective actions towards Christians.

6. Emperor Hadrian (AD 117-138). Early judgments towards Christians.

7. The Talmud, Sanhedrin 43a (AD 70-200). Explicitly states that Jesus was killed on the eve of the Jewish Passover. 40 days prior he was going to be stoned for sorcery but was later hung (presumably on the cross).

8. Toledoth Jesu (2nd Century?). Anti-Christian document that records what happened to Christ's body after his death.

9. Lucian (2 Century). Greek satirist who recorded the early practices and facts of the Christians.

10. Mara Bar-Serapion (1st and 3rd Century). Ancient manuscript that records Christ as a wise “king” of the Jews.

11. Gnostic sources:
a. The Gospel of Truth (AD 135-160).
b. The Apocryphon of John (AD 120-130).
c. The Gospel of Thomas (AD 140-200).
d. The Treatise On Resurrection (2nd Century)

12. Lost Works:
a. Acts of Pontius Pilate (AD 150).
b. Phlegon (AD 80).

Not sure if this is what you wanted however...

hatsoff wrote:When I talk about "faith" I'm referring to my belief that Jesus atoned for my sin through his death and Resurrection, among other central doctrines of Christianity. I am not talking about works, rituals, or anything else.

The important thing to remember about Christ's death was His sacrifice to "you" personally Hat. He died specifically for YOU.. There is only one Hatsoff in the universe. That is why it was so important to die. It's personal..

Think of it this way, we are truly caught in our sins as "Sweet Monkey Love" confessed earlier. Well the imperfection of it anyway.. Anyways, our corruption (brought on by man, not God) ultimately leads to death. So think of it like a train that will eventually kill us. Our sinful nature.. So what does Christ do? Before the train comes (the sin train that "we" built, our wall) comes to run us over, Christ rushes along and pushes us away from our roaring train wreck and takes the blow for us... And dies. Our sin killed Christ!!!

Ok.. So who on this earth would do that for you?? I mean really.. Do you know anyone who would really die for you?