While it may take years of humbling to stop us believing in ourselves and to believe that Jesus is the answer, actual conversion from being natural to spiritual ("born again", "Christian" in the true sense) is a one-off experience:
"the Spirit of truth ... shall be in you. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you" (John 14:17, 20)
"that day" for the disciples was Pentecost (Acts 2:4, 33), the gentiles has the same experience (10:44-48, 19:5-6) ... we see it was known by the sign of speaking in tongues, which fits seeing as "conversion" is receiving a new heart (Ezek.36:26, Heb.8:10), and "from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks", and "no man can tame the tongue, it defiles the body".
You do not receive the Spirit in stages, you either have or have not received him.
There is a common false gospel at large that says that all who profess faith must have received Him, the above verses plus Acts 8:12-16 expose it.
They get it from 1 Cor. 12:3 "no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost", which actually teaches that the Spirit gives all revelation of Jesus (John 16:13). Jesus warns that many who call Him "Lord"b will be told "I never knew you".
Coming to Christ: What to make of no spiritual experience
-
Canuckster1127
- Old School
- Posts: 5310
- Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:31 am
- Christian: Yes
- Sex: Male
- Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
- Location: Ottawa, ON Canada
Re: Coming to Christ: What to make of no spiritual experienc
Tallman,
We've asked you several times to identify your particular background and you've declined to do so. So, as you've declined, I'm going to state what I believe in terms of where you are coming from, and if you wish to clarify that is up to you. Don't consider yourself hard done by however, because it's you who for whatever reason, don't want to own your identity in this regard.
What you're suggesting here is part and parcel of a tradition known as "Oneness Pentecostalism."
We have indications in Acts of persons speaking in tongues at the time of salvation in 3 passages, (Acts 2:4; 10:46; 19:6) There are two additional instances in which salvation is referenced in Acts with no mention of tongues in Acts 8 and 9.
I Cor deals with this issue in the setting of a church that was focused greatly upon gifts, and Paul chooses to address them as such:
1 Cor. 12:7-11, "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another different kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues. 11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."
1 Cor. 12:29-30, "Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?"
God gives gifts by the Holy Spirit as He wills, and not all speak in tongues. It requires a great deal of manipulation and inference to arrive at the position you're describing here. Frankly, there's no evidence that Jesus spoke in tongues. Yet Jesus was baptized in order to be obedient in all things. Given the importance of what you're advocating here, it's rather a glaring omission don't you think that the Gospels make no reference to Jesus speaking in tongues? Given your claim that it's essential, there's every reason to believe it should featured prominently in the Gospels and Jesus' teaching and yet it wasn't.
The fact is that no one gift is THE sign of salvation. They can be A sign but there is no universal expression of any one gift that all manifest and that is clearly taught in scripture.
What there is universally as evidence is not any of the gifts, but rather the fruit as described in Gal. 5:22-23 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law"
Others can look at your posting history here and see if there is evidence of these elements consistently in your posting. I find those types of examinations far more likely to be relevant than the examination of gifts you're promoting, which Paul has already addressed conclusively in Scripture and sadly require the creations of categories and elements of tongues that are far from clear and far from emphasized to the degree you and Oneness Pentecostals promote.
You're adding to the gospel and the sad thing is it appears to me that you don't recognize that the very passages that speak of false teachings and adding to the gospel you reference, apparently directed toward those who uphold this board's purpose and statement of faith, are more indicative of what you're doing here than those again who follow the myriad of Scripture that indicate that salvation is indeed by grace through faith, and faith alone. I suggest that you give heed to your own warning.
Others reading these discussions, please be aware that Tallman's teachings appear to me to clearly be following the traditions of Oneness Pentacostalism and well beyond what he is promoting here there are many additional issues, including the denial of the trinity that are critical issues. Why Tallman doesn't want to acknowledge his affiliation, I can only guess. I'll leave it to you to ask if that enhances or detracts from his credibility but in any event, don't be lead astray into the path of the type of error that Paul clearly refuted and disavowed as demonstrated above in Corinthians.
Ask yourself why someone doesn't want to come clean and state all of their beliefs rather than just attempting to draw people in through a gateway of teaching in this manner in one area. That's a classic sign of cultish activity and sadly, many who follow these paths are exposed to all sorts of additional "teachings" and many who come out, come out having been traumatized and spiritually abused in many regards. Yes that's harsh. No I'm not saying that is necessarily the case with Tallman specifically, but neither am I saying it is not. Be wary and ask these and other difficult questions before entertaining in any degree these types of additions to the message of faith and grace.
If you want to look closer at elements of spiritual abuse in these traditions, I recommend this link. http://www.spiritualabuse.org/ I do not endorse all the theology present there, but I think it's important to look there and understand the types of things that I'm referencing above, specifically in Oneness Pentecostalism. There's a lot referenced there that demonstrates the elements of abuse and additional teachings of which this "tongues as the evidence of salvation" is just the tip of the iceberg. Beware.
blessings,
bart
We've asked you several times to identify your particular background and you've declined to do so. So, as you've declined, I'm going to state what I believe in terms of where you are coming from, and if you wish to clarify that is up to you. Don't consider yourself hard done by however, because it's you who for whatever reason, don't want to own your identity in this regard.
What you're suggesting here is part and parcel of a tradition known as "Oneness Pentecostalism."
We have indications in Acts of persons speaking in tongues at the time of salvation in 3 passages, (Acts 2:4; 10:46; 19:6) There are two additional instances in which salvation is referenced in Acts with no mention of tongues in Acts 8 and 9.
I Cor deals with this issue in the setting of a church that was focused greatly upon gifts, and Paul chooses to address them as such:
1 Cor. 12:7-11, "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another different kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues. 11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."
1 Cor. 12:29-30, "Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?"
God gives gifts by the Holy Spirit as He wills, and not all speak in tongues. It requires a great deal of manipulation and inference to arrive at the position you're describing here. Frankly, there's no evidence that Jesus spoke in tongues. Yet Jesus was baptized in order to be obedient in all things. Given the importance of what you're advocating here, it's rather a glaring omission don't you think that the Gospels make no reference to Jesus speaking in tongues? Given your claim that it's essential, there's every reason to believe it should featured prominently in the Gospels and Jesus' teaching and yet it wasn't.
The fact is that no one gift is THE sign of salvation. They can be A sign but there is no universal expression of any one gift that all manifest and that is clearly taught in scripture.
What there is universally as evidence is not any of the gifts, but rather the fruit as described in Gal. 5:22-23 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law"
Others can look at your posting history here and see if there is evidence of these elements consistently in your posting. I find those types of examinations far more likely to be relevant than the examination of gifts you're promoting, which Paul has already addressed conclusively in Scripture and sadly require the creations of categories and elements of tongues that are far from clear and far from emphasized to the degree you and Oneness Pentecostals promote.
You're adding to the gospel and the sad thing is it appears to me that you don't recognize that the very passages that speak of false teachings and adding to the gospel you reference, apparently directed toward those who uphold this board's purpose and statement of faith, are more indicative of what you're doing here than those again who follow the myriad of Scripture that indicate that salvation is indeed by grace through faith, and faith alone. I suggest that you give heed to your own warning.
Others reading these discussions, please be aware that Tallman's teachings appear to me to clearly be following the traditions of Oneness Pentacostalism and well beyond what he is promoting here there are many additional issues, including the denial of the trinity that are critical issues. Why Tallman doesn't want to acknowledge his affiliation, I can only guess. I'll leave it to you to ask if that enhances or detracts from his credibility but in any event, don't be lead astray into the path of the type of error that Paul clearly refuted and disavowed as demonstrated above in Corinthians.
Ask yourself why someone doesn't want to come clean and state all of their beliefs rather than just attempting to draw people in through a gateway of teaching in this manner in one area. That's a classic sign of cultish activity and sadly, many who follow these paths are exposed to all sorts of additional "teachings" and many who come out, come out having been traumatized and spiritually abused in many regards. Yes that's harsh. No I'm not saying that is necessarily the case with Tallman specifically, but neither am I saying it is not. Be wary and ask these and other difficult questions before entertaining in any degree these types of additions to the message of faith and grace.
If you want to look closer at elements of spiritual abuse in these traditions, I recommend this link. http://www.spiritualabuse.org/ I do not endorse all the theology present there, but I think it's important to look there and understand the types of things that I'm referencing above, specifically in Oneness Pentecostalism. There's a lot referenced there that demonstrates the elements of abuse and additional teachings of which this "tongues as the evidence of salvation" is just the tip of the iceberg. Beware.
blessings,
bart
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender
-
TallMan
- Established Member
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:47 am
- Christian: Yes
- Sex: Male
- Location: Near London, UK, but I travel
- Contact:
Re: Coming to Christ: What to make of no spiritual experienc
Nonsense, I have linked to the church I'm in (and have been in for over 20 yrs) . . and it has always been advertised on my personal profile.Canuckster1127 wrote:Tallman,
We've asked you several times to identify your particular background and you've declined to do so.
Can you please link to the church you belong to?
I note from reading the bible that it was the religious leaders who questioned people's background, the common people (who got the healings and salvation) weren't bothered with this, they realised that it is irrelevant... I'm just a messenger, a postman, if you want to know where I got my message I'll tell you:
"the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ."
That's the truth, do you have a problem with that?
I have addressed this passage and what it actually means previously, I see you have chosen not to respond to the points I made. For the benefit of others I will repeat:Canuckster1127 wrote:I Cor deals with this issue in the setting of a church that was focused greatly upon gifts,
The context of 1 Corinthians 12 is that since chapter 11 Paul has been talking about what God wants in meetings, not what people get at salvation (in 1 Cor. 1:4-7 he affirms that thay are all fully equipped with all utterance)
The 9 "gifts" listed are the *giving in the church* of attributes that all Christians have for private use:
wisdom, knowledge, faith, .... tongues...
Do you teach that only some Christians have wisdom, knowledge, faith?
If not then why are you inconsistently treating tongues differently?
If only some could speak in tongues Paul woyuld not need to write to them reasoning with them not to all speak in tongues when they meet - the problem could never arise!
... why was Paul saying what he said? ...Most people don't even know what the problem was!
Do you know what the Corinthians were doing wring?
Until you know, you are not going to make sense of the passage and your use of it will only reflect your what you believe, not what they were believing.
It is clear from the passage what the problem was!
They were all acting as one member, they were zealous but not edifying one another - which is what meetings are supposed to be for.
There is only one attribite that fulfils this criteria - tongues.
In 14:23 Paul outright states that they should not all come together and do it!
So, this passage is not teaching that only some Christians can speak in tongues - it teaches the opposite - all have the ability, that's why it specifies that not all, ("two or at the most three") should do it.
Sadly, most people don't go to, and have never even been to, a church that is obedient to God in the use of spiritual gifts.
How are they used where you worship?
1Cor. 14:37: If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
Paul ends by reasoning that they know not all are apostles etc, so why are they presuming to all minister tongues in theb church?Canuckster1127 wrote: 1 Cor. 12:29-30, "Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?"
I good argument!
Jesus was not under the new covenant that's why, he had to die and return to the Father for that to br instituted.Canuckster1127 wrote: there's no evidence that Jesus spoke in tongues.
Acts 2v4 marks the beginning, just like God gave the Law at Sinai once.
There has been no change since
"Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto." (Gal.3:15)
"the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints" (Jude 3)
The religious leaders of Jesus time didn't keep the law, they replaced both the letter and the spirit with their traditions.
The same has happened with the New Covenant, the result is spiritual death, so please don't talk to me about spiritual abuse!
-
catherine
- Established Member
- Posts: 247
- Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:10 am
- Christian: Yes
- Sex: Female
- Creation Position: Undecided
- Location: UK
Re: Coming to Christ: What to make of no spiritual experienc
Hi guys! I got baptised today (myself and two young ladies). Yipeeeeeeeee! Praise God! I was quite poorly and in bed since Wednesday, and thought I might not be able to get baptised today, but God is good and He made sure I was virtually back to normal today. The sun was shining, the water was mighteeeeeee cold but just before my actual baptism and I was being prayed for, I felt God's presence over me , His Holy Spirit, and I was so comforted to know God had 'met me' in this real tangible way. My husband even came and he is the staunchest atheist you'll ever meet. He enjoyed the gathering and baptisms and the fellowship afterwards, so I'm sure God is working on him. My husband's niece came too and she's interested in doing an alpha course in the new year, and my husband's 13 year old daughter, who is also an atheist came and didn't find us a bunch of weirdos, so we have been mightily blessed today. Thanks again guys, for all your help over the past year or two. You've all sown seeds, or watered seeds. I know this is just the beginning, and I remebered this verse earlier that will help me, if (when) things get tough: ''Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.'' 1 Tim 6:12
I'd only remembered the very first part 'Fight the good fight', and so when I looked it up and saw the rest I was amazed to see it fits with my baptism today. Thank you Holy Spirit for bringing that verse to mind. Amazing!
I'd only remembered the very first part 'Fight the good fight', and so when I looked it up and saw the rest I was amazed to see it fits with my baptism today. Thank you Holy Spirit for bringing that verse to mind. Amazing!
Last edited by catherine on Sun Oct 24, 2010 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
ChrisB
- Established Member
- Posts: 108
- Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:31 pm
- Christian: Yes
- Sex: Male
- Creation Position: Day-Age
- Location: Oregon
Re: Coming to Christ: What to make of no spiritual experienc
Congratulations!catherine wrote:Hi guys! I got baptised today (myself and two young ladies). Hipeeeeeeeee! Praise God! I was quite poorly and in bed since Wednesday, and thought I might not be able to get baptised today, but God is good and He made sure I was virtually back to normal today. The sun was shining, the water was mighteeeeeee cold but just before my actual baptism and I was being prayed for, I felt God's presence over me , His Holy Spirit, and I was so comforted to know God had 'met me' in this real tangible way. My husband even came and he is the staunchest atheist you'll ever meet. He enjoyed the gathering and baptisms and the fellowship afterwards, so I'm sure God is working on him. My husband's niece came too and she's interested in doing an alpha course in the new year, and my husband's 13 year old daughter, who is also an atheist came and didn't find us a bunch of weirdos, so we have been mightily blessed today. Thanks again guys, for all your help over the past year or two. You've all sown seeds, or watered seeds. I know this is just the beginning, and I remebered this verse earlier that will help me, if (when) things get tough: ''Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.'' 1 Tim 6:12
I'd only remembered the very first part 'Fight the good fight', and so when I looked it up and saw the rest I was amazed to see it fits with my baptism today. Thank you Holy Spirit for bringing that verse to mind. Amazing!
"Materialists and madmen never have doubts." -G.K. Chesterton
-
Canuckster1127
- Old School
- Posts: 5310
- Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:31 am
- Christian: Yes
- Sex: Male
- Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
- Location: Ottawa, ON Canada
Re: Coming to Christ: What to make of no spiritual experienc
Tallman, I apologize for mistating your identification with your organization. I missed where you had done that in the past. You have identified the church you belong to.
The other elements of your post continue to violate our board purpose, discussion guidelines and statement of faith. Please check your personal messages for more information on that.
The other elements of your post continue to violate our board purpose, discussion guidelines and statement of faith. Please check your personal messages for more information on that.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender
-
jlay
- Ultimate Member
- Posts: 3613
- Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:47 pm
- Christian: Yes
- Sex: Male
- Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Re: Coming to Christ: What to make of no spiritual experienc
The bottom line is TM has never spoke in tongues as the believers did on the day of Pentecost. I know because I have asked him before. I assure you there is nothing going on in his congregation that is anything like the day of Pentecost.
There is no question that Jesus is preparing his disciples for the day of Pentecost in John 14. There are three occassions as such in the NT. That is it. There are reports of many being saved, yet not of speaking in tongues. The point of each of those events was to confirm the church.
There is no question that Jesus is preparing his disciples for the day of Pentecost in John 14. There are three occassions as such in the NT. That is it. There are reports of many being saved, yet not of speaking in tongues. The point of each of those events was to confirm the church.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord
"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
-
mandelduke
- Recognized Member
- Posts: 79
- Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:35 am
- Christian: Yes
- Sex: Male
- Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
- Location: Choctaw. MS.
Re: Coming to Christ: What to make of no spiritual experienc
Congratulations Catherine!catherine wrote:Hi guys! I got baptised today (myself and two young ladies). Yipeeeeeeeee! Praise God! I was quite poorly and in bed since Wednesday, and thought I might not be able to get baptised today, but God is good and He made sure I was virtually back to normal today. The sun was shining, the water was mighteeeeeee cold but just before my actual baptism and I was being prayed for, I felt God's presence over me , His Holy Spirit, and I was so comforted to know God had 'met me' in this real tangible way. My husband even came and he is the staunchest atheist you'll ever meet. He enjoyed the gathering and baptisms and the fellowship afterwards, so I'm sure God is working on him. My husband's niece came too and she's interested in doing an alpha course in the new year, and my husband's 13 year old daughter, who is also an atheist came and didn't find us a bunch of weirdos, so we have been mightily blessed today. Thanks again guys, for all your help over the past year or two. You've all sown seeds, or watered seeds. I know this is just the beginning, and I remebered this verse earlier that will help me, if (when) things get tough: ''Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.'' 1 Tim 6:12
I'd only remembered the very first part 'Fight the good fight', and so when I looked it up and saw the rest I was amazed to see it fits with my baptism today. Thank you Holy Spirit for bringing that verse to mind. Amazing!
