EssentialSacrifice wrote:Socal wrote:
Note the same Greek word is used twice in Ephesians 1:6, to describe all believers:
"To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made (χαριτόω) us accepted (χαριτόω) in the beloved."
SoCal :
You can't appeal to God here as if your assertion is proven fact, which it is not. The fact is that the same original Greek word for "full of grace" in Luke 1:28 appears in Ephesians 1:6 in reference to believers, so you can't claim that the term means that Mary is sinless but we are not. Either she is a sinner like the rest of us or we have the same sinlessness that you claim she had. You can't deflect from this by using God's rank in vain.
Eph 1:6 Thus he would manifest the splendour of that grace by which he has taken us into his favour in the person of his beloved Son.
New AdventBible translation
1:6 εἰς ἔπαινον δόξης τῆς
χάριτος αὐτοῦ ἧς ἐχαρίτωσεν ἡμᾶς ἐν τῷ ἠγαπημένῳ,
Blue Bible translation
1:6 εἰς ἔπαινον δόξης τῆς
χάριτος αὐτοῦ ἐν ᾗ ἐχαρίτωσεν ἡμᾶς ἐν τῷἠγαπημένῳ
while Ephesians 1:6 uses
"echaritosen,"
which is a different form of the verb "charitoo."
Echaritosen means "he graced" (or bestowed grace).
Echaritosen signifies a momentary action, an action brought to pass (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament, p. 166).
Luke 1:28 Into her presence the angel came, and said, Hail, thou who art full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women.
New Advent Bible translation
Luke 1;28 καὶ εἰσελθὼν πρὸς αὐτὴν εἶπεν: χαῖρε,
κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ κύριος μετὰ σοῦ.
Blue Bible translation
Luke 1:28 καὶ εἰσελθὼν πρὸς αὐτὴν εἶπεν χαῖρε
κεχαριτωμένη ὁ κύριος μετὰσοῦ
However, Luke 1:28
uses a special conjugated form of "charitoo." It uses "kecharitomene,"
Whereas, Kecharitomene, the perfect passive participle, shows a completeness with a permanent result. Kecharitomene denotes continuance of a completed action (H. W. Smyth, Greek Grammar [Harvard Univ Press, 1968], p. 108-109,
Re: End times prophecy checklist...
Postby EssentialSacrifice » Tue May 10, 2016 8:20 pm
and there in lies the difference So Cal … The Greek writer saw Mary as grace filled before during and after her angelic encounter. Grace filled sin free. The angel called her “hail full of grace” he gave her a new name, he called her by what is most prominent in her, that which is most striking, what is most abundant and abundantly clear … she is grace filled beyond our capacity to comprehend.
Saved by grace alone ? how much better then to be known as “Full of Grace, the Mother of God” these differences in definition create the permanent fixture of grace within Mary, and any momentary graces bestowed by God upon someone else
and that grace, "kecharitomene," makes her sinless imo. by the fullness of the grace of God... sinless.
You know, if you're going to copy-and-paste, have to decency to cite your source.
Here is your issue in Luke 1:28:
As they are used in the New Testament, πλήρης χάριτος describes one's own character and capacity to bestow favor; κεχαριτωμένος is a designation of God's attitude and actions toward the one so labeled.
Κεχαριτωμένος
χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ κύριος μετὰ σοῦ.
Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!1
Κεχαριτωμένος is a perfect passive participle (a verbal adjective) derived from χαριτόω, "to show favor". Here it is inflected as a feminine singular in the vocative (addressing) case. The inflected meaning is roughly, "O woman who has been shown favor". No agent is stated as the originator of favor. This is sometimes termed a "divine passive”; the agent is unstated on the grounds that it is obvious to everyone that it is God.
So in Luke 1:28 the angel is not saying that she a source of grace, he's saying she is an object of grace, in the same way we are in Ephesians 1:6.
Here's another source:
In this short mp3 clip, Akin translates kecharitomene as “lady who has been graced.” He explains the word means she has been graced by God in the past which continues to the present. Akin says, “That’s a passage that many people have thought echoes, um, the immaculate conception because certainly Mary’s immaculate conception was something that happened, she’s a woman, and it happened to her in the past, namely at the very beginning of her life, and it continues to effect her in the present, because she’s still immaculate as a result of that.”
Now this alone appears to be the typical Roman Catholic answer on Luke 1:28. Akin though goes on to state that this type of understanding is consistent with what the Greek word means, but it’s not something the word kecharitomene requires: “This is a Greek term that you could use in that exact grammatical formation for someone else who wasn’t immaculately conceived and the sentence would still make sense.” He then gives the example of using the term of Mary’s grandmother. But next was the real gem in Akin’s answer. At the end of the clip, he states,“This is something where I said previously, we need the additional source of information from tradition and we need the guidance of the magisterium to be able to put these pieces together.”
This is a frank admission that the text does not plainly support the Roman Catholic interpretation and needs to be supplemented by another ultimate authority. For all of Keating’s appeals to hidden meaning from the Greek, and for Madrid’s “The original import of this phrase is lost in English translation,”we now have Jimmy Akin finally admitting that the immaculate conception has to be read into the text.
*
of Mary,
turn in your Pcard this instant young man.