Evidence for God from Science

Murray wrote:^

and I will say again we live by grace not by laws. Romans 6:15

Laws are in grace, but grace is what convictes us of right and wrong. We are not to violate our laws given to us by grace, so i other words, go against your holy conscience

Murray, where do you come up with this stuff? Where in the bible did you get this info? Grace is NOT what convicts us of right and wrong. Ephesians 2:8-9 says:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

We were not given laws by grace. We were given salvation by God's unmerited grace. Israel was given the law.

^

the bible is where I get it from.........where does it say that we are to act like 5 year olds following little tiny rules. Do you give your mo9ther a list of does and dodnts? no! why? because they have the knowledge to determine what is wrong and what is right. God gives us the gift of the holy spirit to guide us , not to make us follow rules as toddlers do, again listen to the sermon, changed my view on so many things.

"we are not under LAW, but under GRACE"

Murray wrote:

RickD wrote:

Now I suppose the main argument against gay Christians is that over time they do justify it, but we will never know that will we?

The main argument in my mind, isn't against what you call "gay Christians". My argument is that you just seem to justify homosexual behavior because your pastor says it's ok, and because we're not living under the same law that Israel was under.

You don't seem to understand when everyone explains from the bible that homosexual sin is wrong just like any other sexual sin outside of a God ordained marriage.

Since you won't listen to us, why don't you try seriously devoting some time praying about this matter. If it is an issue that is this important to you, and you are open, God will show you.

no no no

My pastor never once said it was ok, Ill give you the exact link to the sermon so you can listen for your self, very good speaker, im sure you'll love him, it is most definatly worth your time to listen to. Maybe you will get something different out of it then me....

http://ebenezerumc.org/worship/sermons

It is the first sermon on the list, title is "making good decisions" its about maye 20 mins long, but time flys. please take the time to listen, its very good

This is what you said came from your pastor's speech:

True Christians who have accepted Jesus cannot sin with a clean conscience, we know what we do is wrong soon after or right after we do it. If a devout Christian who has Jesus and has accepted Jesus is homosexual and he can be a homosexual with a clean conscience with absolutely no conscience about it at all, what does that say? If the holy spirit does not imply to that person that homosexuality is wrong, who are we to argue with the holy spirit.

unless I'm reading what you said wrong, your pastor says that if a professing homosexual Christian practices homosexuality without the Holy Spirit convicting him that it's wrong, then homosexuality must be ok, because we shouldn't argue with the Holy Spirit.

Does the bible say word for word that I should not smoke weed? No. Does my conscience tell me I should not ever since I became a true christian, yes.

nothing bout gays in that whole sermon friend......

RickD wrote:

Murray wrote:

RickD wrote:

Now I suppose the main argument against gay Christians is that over time they do justify it, but we will never know that will we?

The main argument in my mind, isn't against what you call "gay Christians". My argument is that you just seem to justify homosexual behavior because your pastor says it's ok, and because we're not living under the same law that Israel was under.

You don't seem to understand when everyone explains from the bible that homosexual sin is wrong just like any other sexual sin outside of a God ordained marriage.

Since you won't listen to us, why don't you try seriously devoting some time praying about this matter. If it is an issue that is this important to you, and you are open, God will show you.

no no no

My pastor never once said it was ok, Ill give you the exact link to the sermon so you can listen for your self, very good speaker, im sure you'll love him, it is most definatly worth your time to listen to. Maybe you will get something different out of it then me....

http://ebenezerumc.org/worship/sermons

It is the first sermon on the list, title is "making good decisions" its about maye 20 mins long, but time flys. please take the time to listen, its very good

This is what you said came from your pastor's speech:

True Christians who have accepted Jesus cannot sin with a clean conscience, we know what we do is wrong soon after or right after we do it. If a devout Christian who has Jesus and has accepted Jesus is homosexual and he can be a homosexual with a clean conscience with absolutely no conscience about it at all, what does that say? If the holy spirit does not imply to that person that homosexuality is wrong, who are we to argue with the holy spirit.

unless I'm reading what you said wrong, your pastor says that if a professing homosexual Christian practices homosexuality without the Holy Spirit convicting him that it's wrong, then homosexuality must be ok, because we shouldn't argue with the Holy Spirit.

I did not put words in my pastors mouth, you did that. Never did I say he said anything on gays, he did not bring it up one time in that whole sermon. This is my interpretation of the bible and his sermon

If I did say it came from it, you misunderstood, it is what I got from the message of it.

these are your words, Murray

Note: Im almost taking directly from my pastors sermon

When you ask jesus to enter you and your life you are filled with the holy spirit correct? When you look at pornography as a christian what do you feel? Ashamed, that is god telling you , "hey, your better than that", when you talk behind somebody’s back and make up gossip and rumours and then later you feel awful that’s the holy spirit telling you "hey your better than that". True Christians who have accepted Jesus cannot sin with a clean conscience, we know what we do is wrong soon after or right after we do it. If a devout Christian who has Jesus and has accepted Jesus is homosexual and he can be a homosexual with a clean conscience with absolutely no conscience about it at all, what does that say? If the holy spirit does not imply to that person that homosexuality is wrong, who are we to argue with the holy spirit.

Taking, as in taking from in the sence of my intrpetation, my fault I was not very clear about that.

Sorry

Murray wrote:^

and I will say again we live by grace not by laws. Romans 6:15

Laws are in grace, but grace is what convictes us of right and wrong. We are not to violate our laws given to us by grace, so i other words, go against your holy conscience

The Holy Spirit convicts, grace saves. We aren't saved because we aren't homosexuals. Just like we aren't saved because we don't kill people. I never associated being a homosexual with being condemned to hell without redemption or grace.

What I -did- say was that homosexuality is clearly a sin in the Bible. Again... you never responded to the Bible itself on the matter. I'll try again:

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners, practicing homosexuals, For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers and sisters, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they were all drinking from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ. But God was not pleased with most of them, for they were cut down in the wilderness. These things happened as examples for us, so that we will not crave evil things as they did."

1 Corinthians 6:9-11

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

^

do you believe all gays, even gay christians will burn in hell then"?

Murray wrote:^

do you believe all gays, even gay christians will burn in hell then"?

What do you think the verse means? Whatever it means, it applies evenly to idolaters and adulterers too. In addition, it can't conflict with the rest of Scripture.

What its doing is comparing those actions and homosexuality to the standard of God and saying they are polar opposites. The Kingdom of God will not be full of those activities. This gets back to the whole argument we've been having in the first place: God, through the Bible, says that homosexuality is wrong. It doesn't matter what people feel or want, God (the standard-maker) says its wrong. You can't decide morality on human whim or emotion because they change.

Murray wrote:^

do you believe all gays, even gay christians will burn in hell then"?

Not if they trust in Christ, no.

@ MarcusOfLycia

Some christian gays truley do believe it to be wrongand try to stop but they cannot.... So now how is that just and fair if they cannot actually choose.