Evidence for God from Science

and let me re-post my other question that everyone has ignored.

Are you saying every single catholic is an idolator becuase they believe in purgatory without any biblical support?

They don't worship purgatory so no I don't think they are guilty of idolatry for that. They just believe in it. If we as humans are for some reason punished for holding false beliefs, then I think we're all in trouble. There is no human on Earth that perfectly holds all correct beliefs and rejects all false ones, catholic/protestant/muslim/atheist or otherwise.

Though I think the Catholic worship of Mary and saints (though most will probably call it praise rather than worship) is probably idolatry. As they are Christians though, I think Catholics will be forgiven for this if it is idolatry, just as all Christians are forgiven for any other sin.

jlay wrote: Again Danny, that is not fair play. I didn't claim it to be. It was thorough, and rooted in scripture as support. Not saying I agree with every jot and tittle, but the overall case seems more than sound.

I know you didn’t claim it to be, Jlay, but I’m saying that, while the paper supports your case, it matters not a jot to me since the paper is not Scripture. I happen to disagree with the conclusion in the paper. I think the paper leaped to a conclusion - which it is perfectly entitled to do - that I find erroneous. Scripturally, repentance doesn’t appear to be a necessary precondition to our belief and salvation. I’m not denigrating repentance here; I’m merely looking at our salvation and finding that repentance isn’t specified as a precondition to our belief. It is a necessary concomitant to our belief; a Christian cannot believe in the miracle of Christ’s work on the cross and have an unrepentant heart.

But I need a reminder of what has led to this confusion:

DannyM wrote: I just say repentance doesn’t necessarily occur before you believe in Christ. If you’re defining repent as a “mind shift”, then what is your mind shifting from?

.

So I ask you to expand on this “mind shift.”

jlay wrote: Could be many things. For example, the thought that sin doesn't condemn you before a Holy God. Or, that God doesn't really care about the human sin condition. One would need to repent of that kind of thinking. Would you care to explain to me how someone like that could be saved unless they repented?

We could look at JTB preaching to Israel. "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." What's going on here? What is the message? Prepare to abandon an old way of thinking, to embrace a new. Hebrews is the Jewish apologetic and lays all this out. It attempts to persuade the Jew to recognize the inferiority of the 1st covenant, and to see the superiority of the new. And then to embrace it through faith.

Perhaps I should have said thank you, J, and I apologise for being so remiss. But this request:

jlay wrote: Would you care to explain to me how someone like that could be saved unless they repented?

is, with all due respect, a nonsense. Since your examples have nothing whatsoever to do with salvation - they are merely examples of a repentance - then your request is dismissed on the grounds of irrelevance. And my request:

DannyM wrote: You need to show me that all this necessarily comes prior to belief.

is fair and still stands.

That's basically what I'm asking you. You don't see how your reply saying you don't owe me an answer, and then in the next breath requiring one of me, could be seen as friction? I think I was very level headed and non offensive in explaining to you why I was feeling the friction.

I’m sorry, J, that I offended you, and in turn take my hat off to you for remaining level headed in the face of such offence caused. I’m not backwards in coming forwards, but I don’t intend to offend a Brother. But then you’re no shrinking violet yourself and I know you can hold your own.

Danny, if you want to dismiss the examples, then what is point? Are they not valid? You said they are 'genuine.' Do they not confirm my position? Yes, they do. Please explain how a person with those positions could be saved without repenting of those thoughts. They can't.

J, they are valid examples of a repentance. That you even think that John Christian cannot be saved without repenting from these examples is ludicrous. Scripturally. A person is saved by believing in Christ. We are saved by the faith of Christ because we believed in Christ.

The issue at hand is, is repentance essential for salvation, and when does it occur? So, you say, my examples are genuine, and they preceed being born again, yet you say they don't deal with the issue at hand? I'm confused at how you are rationalizing that. It seems to me that you are excluding the evidence because it proves the case. I'm sorry Danny, but unless I'm missing something, it just doesn't seem intellectually honest. Apologies if I'm off-base here.

To say that your examples precede being born again is just an assumption. Because I acknowledge your examples of a repentance for a Christian does not mean I agree with your assertion that repentance is a necessary precondition for salvation. This would be putting words in my mouth. I most certainly am not saying your genuine examples of a repentance necessarily precede being born again. And I’m not being intellectually dishonest. As far as I’m aware I’ve made my position pretty clear. Please ask me to clarify anything unclear.

Seraph wrote:I think the Catholic worship of Mary and saints (though most will probably call it praise rather than worship) is probably idolatry.

Of course it is not worship. Praise? Maybe, in the same manner one would praise their parents. At the heart of the communion of the saints, however, is intercessory prayer, no more and no less. (just to clarify, not to debate). Back to topic.

is, with all due respect, a nonsense. Since your examples have nothing whatsoever to do with salvation

That just isn't true. The examples I stated all have to do with someone coming to salvation. Are you saying that the human sin condition has nothing to do with salvation? Because that is what my examples were rooted in.

A person is saved by believing in Christ. We are saved by the faith of Christ because we believed in Christ.

Of course they are Danny. I haven't said otherwise. Repentance preceding salvation does not negate faith alone salvation. That is your thought, not mine. I'm actually kind of confused as to why you would hint that I somehow disagree that a person is saved by trusting Christ. Again, this all seems to have determined Calvanism written all over it.
IMO, by excluding my examples, you are ignoring what a person is believing Christ for. You are taking the idea of 'faith alone' and ascribing conditions to it, that I do not think are consistent with it.
The only reason I can see you making the statement above is that you are suggesting that I am denying faith alone salvation. Please, please, please don't try to insinuate that I am saying a person isn't saved by believing in Christ. Whether inadvertent or intentional, It implies I am saying something when in fact I am not.

DannyM wrote:That you even think that John Christian cannot be saved without repenting from these examples is ludicrous.

Well, let's look actually look at the examples and stop making assertions that fail to address the examples themselves. I've asked you multiple times to explain how a person can be saved without repenting of these ideas. You refuse, and simply say the above. That isn't an answer. Danny, either you will construct an answer that deals with the scenario or you won't.
I said, For example, the thought that sin doesn't condemn you before a Holy God. Or, that God doesn't really care about the human sin condition.

There is one of my examples. You say that its ludicrous to say that a person above can't be saved without repenting of those ideas. So, you are saying that a person who thinks that sin is not an issue with God, can be saved? Yet to believe on Jesus means you are trusting Him as savior. And the human sin condition is inseparably woven into the cross. Jesus said, whoever hears His message and believes the one who sent Him, would have eternal life. (John 5:24) How does a person trust Jesus as savior while still thinking that sin isn't a problem with God?

Danny, if you want to actually address these kind of situations, then I'm all for continuing the dialogue. If you are going to call these examples ludicrous without any evidential reply, then I will respectfully bow out of this discussion

Are you a Christian? Yes
Are you a sinner? No.
Is Jesus your savior? Yes.
What did He save you from?
Ludicrous?

Also, in another thread I gave the example of Stephen Hawking. He needs to repent of his ideas that the universe is an accident. I certainly don't think that you would say that Hawking could be saved and yet remain an atheist. Yet, by your repentance time-line, it would seem that Hawking could.
Are you a Christian? "Yes"
So Jesus is the son of God? "There is no God, I just believe in Jesus."
But Jesus claimed to be the son of God, and that by Him all things in creation were made? "The universe happened by unguided chance processes."

Peace

jlay wrote:That just isn't true. The examples I stated all have to do with someone coming to salvation. Are you saying that the human sin condition has nothing to do with salvation? Because that is what my examples were rooted in.

You gave sporadic examples of repentance without providing the evidence that these are a necessary precondition to salvation. I don’t know how to be any clearer here. You’ve given hypothetical acts of repentance and refused to show me how they are a necessary precondition to belief, other than just restating your assertion that they are. J, this is becoming quite absurd.

jlay wrote:Of course they are Danny. I haven't said otherwise. Repentance preceding salvation does not negate faith alone salvation. That is your thought, not mine.

No. I haven’t said that you have said otherwise; I’m merely restating my position.

jlay wrote:I'm actually kind of confused as to why you would hint that I somehow disagree that a person is saved by trusting Christ.

I’m not hinting at any such thing.

jlay wrote:Again, this all seems to have determined Calvanism written all over it.

Red Herring. And completely irrelevant to the merits of the argument. This wouldn’t be an attempt to muddy the waters would it, J?

jlay wrote:IMO, by excluding my examples, you are ignoring what a person is believing Christ for. You are taking the idea of 'faith alone' and ascribing conditions to it, that I do not think are consistent with it.

That’s funny, J, since I’m sticking with faith alone and not inserting a precondition of repentance to it.

jlay wrote:The only reason I can see you making the statement above is that you are suggesting that I am denying faith alone salvation. Please, please, please don't try to insinuate that I am saying a person isn't saved by believing in Christ.

Rest assured, J, that I am not insinuating anything of the sort. You’re adding repentance as a necessary precondition to belief; as far as I’m concerned this wouldn’t negate the faith alone gospel. I just think that you’re position is wrong. I also think it is unscriptural. No violence is being done to the faith alone gospel since repentance is not a work and if you are correct then I have no such qualms. I’d just like to see something more than just your own assertions.

jlay wrote:I've asked you multiple times to explain how a person can be saved without repenting of these ideas. You refuse, and simply say the above. That isn't an answer. Danny, either you will construct an answer that deals with the scenario or you won't.

For example, the thought that sin doesn't condemn you before a Holy God. Or, that God doesn't really care about the human sin condition.

I don’t know how many more times I’m going to have to say this, but the burden is on you, my friend, to show me that this example is a NECESSARY PRECONDITION TO BELIEF IN CHRIST. I’m not denying that for many this WILL OCCUR prior to belief in Christ; but you are still failing to show me how this is a NECESSARY PRECONDITION.

Sorry for the caps, but I’m in a word doc and italics do not transfer.

jlay wrote:There is one of my examples. You say that its ludicrous to say that a person above can't be saved without repenting of those ideas.

Yep. And you are still yet to provide the Scripture to show me I’m wrong. Just assertion after assertion. Being judge and jury on the workings of each man’s heart prior to their initial belief just doesn’t cut it as far as I can tell.

jlay wrote:So, you are saying that a person who thinks that sin is not an issue with God, can be saved?

A person can believe on Christ before repenting of their sins. This person is thus secured in salvation before a repentance has occurred. Please give me the Scripture that tells me otherwise.

jlay wrote:Yet to believe on Jesus means you are trusting Him as savior. And the human sin condition is inseparably woven into the cross. Jesus said, whoever hears His message and believes the one who sent Him, would have eternal life. (John 5:24) How does a person trust Jesus as savior while still thinking that sin isn't a problem with God?

Again, please give me the Scripture that tells me a person must consciously repent of sin prior to belief in Christ and that this is NECESSARY for our salvation.

jlay wrote:Danny, if you want to actually address these kind of situations, then I'm all for continuing the dialogue. If you are going to call these examples ludicrous without any evidential reply, then I will respectfully bow out of this discussion

I’m addressing you perfectly well, J. No need to bow out; this is an important discussion.

jlay wrote: Are you a Christian? Yes
Are you a sinner? No.
Is Jesus your savior? Yes.
What did He save you from?
Ludicrous?

Complete misrepresentation of my position. I’m asking for Scriptural evidence that a conscious repentance of sins is necessary prior to a belief in Jesus Christ. I don’t mean to be snarky, J, but I’m still bloody waiting.

jlay wrote:I certainly don't think that you would say that Hawking could be saved and yet remain an atheist.

One example and irrelevant to what I’m requesting of you.

jlay wrote:Yet, by your repentance time-line, it would seem that Hawking could.

I don’t have some particular “time-line”, J. I’m not the one restricting myself here.

Just give me the Scripture that tells me that repentance is a necessary precondition to belief and salvation and I will repent and declare you right all along.

A person can believe on Christ before repenting of their sins.

Of course they can, because you are using repentance in a different context. A context that I have been arguing against. How did you miss this. When someone today says, someone must repent of their sins, they are saying that they have to feel guilt, and turn from their sin. That is not what I am advocating. I can only assume that you are using the phrase 'repent of their sins' in this same context. I reject that defining of the word. In fact I've already spoken against that notion. Knowing you are a sinner is not turning from and forsaking your sin. Jesus came for SINNERS. His words. for a person to trust Christ means that they have already recognized their need for a savior. I am saying the point that someone becomes mindful of this is repentance. The examples I have given are consistent with this. With someone becoming mindful of their need of saving. The Pharisees believed in God. They even expected a Messiah. But they would not abandon their old way of thinking to embrace the new. Even though they were experts in the scriptures that promised a Messiah. They would not repent.

Again, please give me the Scripture that tells me a person must consciously repent of sin prior to belief in Christ and that this is NECESSARY for our salvation.

I never said there was a scripture because this is NOT MY POSITION. Danny, I posted an entire dissertation about how the word repentance is the most misunderstood word in the bible. You said you read it, and then you accuse me of representing a position that would require me to hold the view of repentance that I am arguing agaisnt. I never said, anyone must consciously repent of sin. NEVER.

jlay wrote:Of course they can, because you are using repentance in a different context. A context that I have been arguing against. How did you miss this.

Eh? I haven’t missed a thing. My context of repentance has remained consistent throughout. If I’ve given you another impression here then it is not intentional. I’m still talking about a mind change.

jlay wrote:When someone today says, someone must repent of their sins, they are saying that they have to feel guilt, and turn from their sin. That is not what I am advocating. I can only assume that you are using the phrase 'repent of their sins' in this same context.

What? Here’s me on this very thread:

DannyM wrote:Your salvation is all the work of Christ, a "turning away from" would be a work of yours and not Christ.

My position on repent has consistently been “a change of mind.”

jlay wrote:I reject that defining of the word.

Me too.

jlay wrote:In fact I've already spoken against that notion. Knowing you are a sinner is not turning from and forsaking your sin.

I know.

jlay wrote:Jesus came for SINNERS. His words.

Indeed.

jlay wrote:for a person to trust Christ means that they have already recognized their need for a savior.

Yes. But this doesn’t necessarily imply a mind change. It doesn’t necessarily mean that prior to this recognition the person had a contrary state of mind. We’ve already established that non belief is not a state of mind. Non belief is not disbelief. So a recognition is not necessarily a change from one state of mind to another state of mind.

jlay wrote:I am saying the point that someone becomes mindful of this is repentance. The examples I have given are consistent with this. With someone becoming mindful of their need of saving.

If this is what repentance means then I would agree with you. But I fear you are playing fast and loose with the definition here.

jlay wrote:The Pharisees believed in God. They even expected a Messiah. But they would not abandon their old way of thinking to embrace the new. Even though they were experts in the scriptures that promised a Messiah. They would not repent.

Moot. The Pharisees didn’t TRUST the Messiah.

jlay wrote:

Again, please give me the Scripture that tells me a person must consciously repent of sin prior to belief in Christ and that this is NECESSARY for our salvation.

I never said there was a scripture because this is NOT MY POSITION.

So you don’t believe there must be a conscious change of mind prior to belief?

jlay wrote:Danny, I posted an entire dissertation about how the word repentance is the most misunderstood word in the bible. You said you read it, and then you accuse me of representing a position that would require me to hold the view of repentance that I am arguing agaisnt. I never said, anyone must consciously repent of sin. NEVER.

So what on earth ARE you saying then, J?

And I DID read the ENTIRE paper.

DannyM wrote:Just give me the Scripture that tells me that repentance is a necessary precondition to belief and salvation and I will repent and declare you right all along.

Acts 2:38

If this is what repentance means then I would agree with you. But I fear you are playing fast and loose with the definition here.

"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all everywhere should repent." Acts 17:30
It addresses ignorance. And states repentance as something men should do. I don't see how you can keep claiming there is no scripture. The context was their state of mind. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

The Pharisees didn’t TRUST the Messiah.

Of course they didn't. They were self-righteous. They ignored the preaching of JTB and Jesus, which said, 'Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.' They saw themselves as fit for the Kingdom. They could not/would not trust Jesus without changing their minds about their own condition, and the claims of Jesus. The sick need a physician, and they saw themselves as healthy. If you are ignorant that you have cancer, you still have it. If a doctor came to you and he says, we need to start chemo today. You would refuse, because you don't know you are sick. If he then showed you test-results and evidence, you could become convinced of your sickness. Then you could place your trust in the doctor to receive the cure.

Mark 1:15
Acts 3:19
Acts 2:38
Luke 24:47
Acts 17:30
Acts 19:4
Acts 20:21

So you don’t believe there must be a conscious change of mind prior to belief?

That isn't what I said, I explained first in the post how I perceived you were using repentance. Why? Because you said, repent from your sins. A phrase I had not been using.
If you were using 'repent of your sins,' as saying, becoming conscious of being a sinner and the need of saving, then I would say, yes. We established Jesus came for sinners, whom He said were, 'the sick.' How can a sick person be cured if he is ignorant of his disease? He needs to become convinced. Have his mind changed. That is my testimony. When I was saved I became aware that I needed a savior. Then all the claims of Jesus made sense, and I was able to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ for my salvation. If you don't see that I changed my mind prior to trusting Christ, then I am afraid we are at a dead end.

We recently baptized a boy in our church. Family is common church goers. I am certain the child believed in God and had a head knowledge belief about Jesus. One day in Sunday school I taught a lesson about how the cross wasn't just a historical event, but how the cross is relevant and essential for our lives today. I broke down the reality of personal sin, condemnation, and separation. And then showed how through the cross Christ paid the price so that we could be restored to God. Although this young man had been in church, he had not yet intersected the cross of Christ with his own life and desperate need of saving. Through this lesson and others, and asking many questions, he became convinced of his own need for a savior. And he decided to place his trust in Christ as his savior. All the head knowledge suddenly became of personal reality.

Byblos and Jlay

Is this how you both divide the Word?

What is the "this" you are referring to?

The question is too vague. To be honest, it sounds like a smart alec comment, not a question at all. Not saying it is, just first impression.

jlay wrote:What is the "this" you are referring to?

The question is too vague. To be honest, it sounds like a smart alec comment, not a question at all. Not saying it is, just first impression.

It's a question, Jlay. And you're paranoid. Not my problem. It's an honest question.

DannyM wrote:Byblos and Jlay

Is this how you both divide the Word?

Me too ^, not sure exactly what you mean Danny. Although Jlay and I are coming from entirely different camps, I don't believe either's intent was to divide but simply to answer a question you posed. In our studies of scripture I believe it is our sincere desire to understand not just bits and pieces but the entire council of God as presented in the Gospels. That we come to different conclusions is the issue at hand but there is never any malice or ill will intended. Or did I misread your comment?

Byblos wrote:

DannyM wrote:Byblos and Jlay

Is this how you both divide the Word?

Me too ^, not sure exactly what you mean Danny. Although Jlay and I are coming from entirely different camps, I don't believe either's intent was to divide but simply to answer a question you posed. In our studies of scripture I believe it is our sincere desire to understand not just bits and pieces but the entire council of God as presented in the Gospels. That we come to different conclusions is the issue at hand but there is never any malice or ill will intended. Or did I misread your comment?

Brother, I'm asking a genuine question. I just want Scripture relating to gentile salvation. I don’t see it. Now you’re both more biblically acute than me, so I am in some sense going out on a limb. So please can you show me where our salvation is shown to be contingent on repentance.