Evidence for God from Science

Byblos wrote:
The one that says if you don't believe in a God that can create in 6 days then you don't believe in the God of the Bible, that argument. I use a slightly different version of it which goes something like I don't want to worship a god that will negate our free will and make us into robots. In that sense we're all guilty like that, of confining God to our little boxes of interpretation.

That YEC argument is a false argument, and it is a tactical one. In my opinion. Here we have a specific promise from God of a sealed inheritance. So I don't think it is a ploy by secured salvation proponents. As to your argument, I think any notions of absolute free will disappear at salvation. Just my opinion, Bro.

DannyM wrote:

Byblos wrote:
The one that says if you don't believe in a God that can create in 6 days then you don't believe in the God of the Bible, that argument. I use a slightly different version of it which goes something like I don't want to worship a god that will negate our free will and make us into robots. In that sense we're all guilty like that, of confining God to our little boxes of interpretation.

That YEC argument is a false argument, and it is a tactical one. In my opinion. Here we have a specific promise from God of a sealed inheritance. So I don't think it is a ploy by secured salvation proponents. As to your argument, I think any notions of absolute free will disappear at salvation. Just my opinion, Bro.

Did the prodigal son not lose his inheritance? When did he get it back? When he returned home. While he was gone not only did he not have an inheritance, he was dead. He was alive and an heir only when he came back. What he never lost was his status as a son, IMO. (not that I want to debate or anything ).

Byblos wrote:

DannyM wrote:

Byblos wrote:
The one that says if you don't believe in a God that can create in 6 days then you don't believe in the God of the Bible, that argument. I use a slightly different version of it which goes something like I don't want to worship a god that will negate our free will and make us into robots. In that sense we're all guilty like that, of confining God to our little boxes of interpretation.

That YEC argument is a false argument, and it is a tactical one. In my opinion. Here we have a specific promise from God of a sealed inheritance. So I don't think it is a ploy by secured salvation proponents. As to your argument, I think any notions of absolute free will disappear at salvation. Just my opinion, Bro.

Did the prodigal son not lose his inheritance? When did he get it back? When he returned home. While he was gone not only did he not have an inheritance, he was dead. He was alive and an heir only when he came back. What he never lost was his status as a son, IMO. (not that I want to debate or anything ).

Dem's fightin' words, Brother!

So the son lost a salvation?

Byblos wrote:

DannyM wrote:

RickD wrote:

So what is your view on this then, Rick?

Danny, the more I think about this, I realize that if my God wasn't able to provide absolute assurance, then He wouldn't be my God. I couldn't imagine worshiping a god who wasn't powerful enough to keep his promises. I've made, and broken more than my share of promises to people I love. I've been hurt more times than I care to remember, and I've hurt more people than I can count. If I didn't rest on the knowledge that God will finish what He began in me, I would be hopeless.
Numbers 23:19

19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

Yep, yep - I hear all that, Bro

We hear that same line of argument from some YECers about the 6 day creation.

Byblos, I think you misread what I said. Either that, or I didn't convey what I meant properly.
The argument against certain YECs, is that their interpretation is the only valid one. All I was trying to say, is that I realize how sinful and lost I am apart from God's amazing grace. And, how lost everyone else is as well. We all sin against God, and each other. God is the only one who is consistent. He never changes. Ultimately, I can't count on anyone, including myself. If I can't trust my God will save me despite myself, then what kind of God would he be? I'm thankful that God sees me as I am, and despite my depravity, still calls me His child. That is the God I call my Father. Any other god is worthless.

As well, I think you missed the real meaning of the story of the prodigal son. The father's unconditional love for his children, and how he draws them back to a relationship with himself, in spite of all we try to do to live our own lives apart from His will.
I know it's difficult for you to realize this, the god that Catholicism has taught you to worship, is not the God that is worthy of your worship. Again, I pray that you'll humble yourself before Him, and seek His correction on this. You can continue to go against what I'm saying, and get mad, all you want. As long as the Lord is leading me to correct you on this, I'll continue.

God has a plan for your life. Don't resist His calling.

RickD wrote:Byblos, I think you misread what I said. Either that, or I didn't convey what I meant properly.
The argument against certain YECs, is that their interpretation is the only valid one. All I was trying to say, is that I realize how sinful and lost I am apart from God's amazing grace. And, how lost everyone else is as well. We all sin against God, and each other. God is the only one who is consistent. He never changes. Ultimately, I can't count on anyone, including myself. If I can't trust my God will save me despite myself, then what kind of God would he be? I'm thankful that God sees me as I am, and despite my depravity, still calls me His child. That is the God I call my Father. Any other god is worthless.

I agree with everything you said here.

RickD wrote:As well, I think you missed the real meaning of the story of the prodigal son. The father's unconditional love for his children, and how he draws them back to a relationship with himself, in spite of all we try to do to live our own lives apart from His will.
I know it's difficult for you to realize this, the god that Catholicism has taught you to worship, is not the God that is worthy of your worship. Again, I pray that you'll humble yourself before Him, and seek His correction on this. You can continue to go against what I'm saying, and get mad, all you want. As long as the Lord is leading me to correct you on this, I'll continue.

God has a plan for your life. Don't resist His calling.

I disagree with everything you said here (and that's what I was talking about with the YEC reference).

Did the prodigal son not lose his inheritance?

First: Prodigal SON.
Second: What is the parable prodigal son communicating? It is most certainly a parable. Who or what does the son represent? I would say, Israel.
3rd- The scenario completely fails. Because you have to throw Hebrews out completely. One who is apostate is WITHOUT HOPE. He can not be renewed. If you are saying the prodigal son represents Joe Believer, then you are saying he was a saved person, lost his salvation, and then regained it. I think you can see that this creates more problems for your position than it solves. Rightly divide the Word of truth.

jlay wrote:

Did the prodigal son not lose his inheritance?

First: Prodigal SON.
Second: What is the parable prodigal son communicating? It is most certainly a parable. Who or what does the son represent? I would say, Israel.
3rd- The scenario completely fails. Because you have to throw Hebrews out completely. One who is apostate is WITHOUT HOPE. He can not be renewed. If you are saying the prodigal son represents Joe Believer, then you are saying he was a saved person, lost his salvation, and then regained it. I think you can see that this creates more problems for your position than it solves. Rightly divide the Word of truth.

Unless of course Hebrews is seen in a different light and salvation and eternal life are not conflated. The son's salvation is in his sonship which he cannot lose, his inheritance is eternal life witch he did lose (since he was dead) and became heir again when he came back (and was alive again). But here we go back to a matter of interpretation which I'm sure you will disagree with and offer an alternative interpretation; and round and round we go.

(I keep saying that but seriously, I am going to curb it).

Let me get this straight. It seems as if you are saying that one can not lose their salvation yet wind up in Hell? Am I reading this right.

Just seems like a lot of juggling and what ifs to maintain that position.
If we follow the parables consistently they nearly always deal with Israel's relationship to God. Not saying their can't be a broader application.

Unless of course Hebrews is seen in a different light and salvation and eternal life are not conflated.

-And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Acts 16:31
-That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9
-For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16
-Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:24
-I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:13

Just where do see the justification in separating eternal life and salvation? It would seem that one's motive in doing so is to hold onto a view in spite of the plain reading of the text.

jlay wrote:Just where do see the justification in separating eternal life and salvation? It would seem that one's motive in doing so is to hold onto a view in spite of the plain reading of the text.

I've touched on that in my original (long) post with respect to corporate and individual covenants, much the same way the high priest kept the covenant with the nation of Israel on Yum Kippur and other priests performed the daily sacrifices for the forgiveness of the individual's sins.

Plain reading of the text according to whom?

If you wish to complicate the basic gospel, so be it. Sometimes we can not take the plain reading of scripture. But that doesn't mean it isn't the first and most basic reading when following a sound hermeneutic. If you have a reason why the verses I quoted can't be trusted in the most basic and plain reading, then please elaborate. I already addressed why your position fails regarding how you are reading Hebrews. If you are a Hebrew then please prove it.

The verses supplied in their most basic reading are not ambiguous.

The book of Hebrews was written to Hebrews with the primary intent to explain the role of Christ regarding the OT law to Jews who were being pressured to reject Christ or return to the OT practices. That they should be confident in Christ.

You didn't answer:
It seems as if you are saying that one can not lose their salvation yet wind up in Hell? Am I reading this right???

jlay wrote:You didn't answer:
It seems as if you are saying that one can not lose their salvation yet wind up in Hell? Am I reading this right???

Within the framework of covenants and how they work, Christ is the new and everlasting covenant. Which covenant is that? The one between God and his people (all of them). As the high priest (which is how Jesus is described throughout Hebrews) he has renewed our corporate covenant with God, which is the plan of redemption and is a free gift (for Jews as well as gentiles). One enters into the plan of redemption through Christ and Christ alone and once that happens they are no longer judged by the law, they are under grace. They are no longer in the old Adam but in the new Adam and as such become heirs to the inheritance (eternal life, which they can lose) but they CANNOT lose this status of being in the new covenant and go back to be under the law. The consequences of losing eternal life is much more severe than being judged by the law. That's the extremely abridged version.
Look, I understand these are some deeply fundamental differences between us but if we keep going like this, it will inevitably take us way beyond the OP (into subjects such as types/antetypes, foreshadowing, what 'it is finished' really means, eschatology, and where ultimately every discussion of this nature leads, to authority).

So with that said, I'm really gonna curb it now .

DannyM wrote:God keeps His commitment to us and He keeps *our* commitment to Him 2 Timothy 1:12

We have eternal security. A believer can not lose his salvation. His commitment counted as righteousness, he is kept and sealed until the day of his redemption. Nobody knows the depth of God’s Love and grace; one can only imagine. As a believer, if I continue to sin, whether my sin to not sin ratio be 60/40, 70/30 or 90/10, I can not nullify God’s promise, and I can not break God’s seal.

Not trying to be a thorn in the side here. But here is where I have the problem. The rest has so far been fine. This is what caught my eyes.

I don't believe he can keep OUR continued commitment to him. Our commitment to him is OUR choice. Much like my commitment to my wife. I could be unfaithful to her and walk away from here regardless of my initial promise to commit to her.

If you go further into 2 Timothy to verse 13-14 (NASB)
Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you.

Now, for those of us who are married. If you treasure your spouse, your marriage will flourish. For those of us who have received spiritual marriage with Christ. If you treasure the Holy spirit, your spiritual marriage will flourish.

If you neglect your relationship, it WILL fall apart. Our relationship with God is without a doubt a special one, but don't shrug it off as if you don't need to work on that relationship. The very thought of a baptism and walk away comes to mind immediately especially when becoming a Christian DOES NOT take much education.

I have NO DOUBT in my mind that much like marriage with a spouse that we can and often do break our promises. On purpose? We don't try to. But sometimes we do! We sometimes do it on accident and those are easier to deal with. But its those ones that we do on purpose and we do not RECONCILE with our love that puts the relationship in jeopardy. The question is, can you break your promise with God and not reconcile with him? Absolutely! Where would that put you when the end comes? I wouldn't bet the farm that I'm "sealed" in with God.

This is not fair and it would not be just of God to accept someone into heaven who freely walked away from him for the worldly desire instead after you break your promise to him.

Maybe where this conversation needs to go is about separation from God?

The Prodigal son
The workers in the vineyard

We should contrast those stories together.

2 Tim. 1:12-14

That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet I am not ashamed, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day.

13 What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.

14 Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you— guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us.

13 and 14 are exhortations to the Brothers and Sisters.

John 6:37-39,44

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

44 No-one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

DannyM wrote: John 6:44
44 No-one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

On an entirely different subject (the underlined), predestination anyone? Sorry, couldn't help pointing that out, considering how the subject has exploded on the scene recently.

Byblos wrote:

DannyM wrote: John 6:44
44 No-one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

On an entirely different subject (the underlined), predestination anyone? Sorry, couldn't help pointing that out, considering how the subject has exploded on the scene recently.

I'm working on it, Bro!