Two North American presuppositional apologists demolish...

[RickD]

RickD wrote:Because God is unchanging, and He knew that the person was going to abuse the child, before he ever abused the child. God doesn't have an emotional reaction to child abuse like we do, Danny.



Rick, perhaps it is my use of limited everyday language, like “turn to”, that is confusing, I apologise, but I am not saying it is a sudden expression. God’s righteous love for a child would ‘include’ a righteous hatred for the wicked man that horribly abuses that child. This hatred does not suddenly ’hit’ God out of leftfield

Danny, I really have no problem with what you've written here.

God is love in Himself. Outside of Himself, God’s love is not dependent upon His creation. The Father loves the Son; the Son loves Father. God doesn’t need the creature in order to be love; God is love. God SO loved the world that He gave His only Son. The love God has for us is so great that he gave His only begotten Son, that we may have eternal life. This is the greatest conceivable love; it is omnipotent, irresistible and unbreakable.

Danny, I have no problem agreeing with this, either. I hope this is going somewhere.

RickD wrote: And scriptural.
2. Nothing can separate "us", as "us" meaning the true children of God, from the full experience of God's love.
Romans 8:38-39
New American Standard Bible (NASB)



So is the perfect love of God somehow imperfect when not applied to “us”?

No. You asked what can separate us(you and me) from God's love. Of course God's love is perfect. As you and I both have shown we agree on. God's love isn't imperfect, but people are. And obviously the way we love, is imperfect, as well.

Indeed. God’s love is infallible. Nothing in the entire universe can separate us from God.

But, wouldn't you also agree that unbelief will ultimately separate some(not us) from God?

I hope this line of reasoning is leading somewhere.

[DannyM]

Danny, the problem is that I don't see you saying that while you" hate those who hate my God", I don't see you saying that you are loving them as well. Like Matthew 22:39 says we should.

Rick, I’m not accepting that “love your neighbour” means exclusively unbelievers. I’ve answered why in a previous post.

But for argument sake let’s say I’m commanded to love all unbelievers. Well, I don’t. If this be a sin, then, shock horror, I’m a sinner.

If you don't know who God hates, then how are you making the assumption that God hates Jim and Alex? How do you know that Jim or Alex aren't the 21st century "Saul of Tarsus"?

What? I never made this assumption!

I can't see how you are deciding who to love.

I’m not “deciding” who to love.

How do you know who is a brother or sister in Christ? How do you know if someone you believe is a brother or sister, is not an Apostate? Then, by your beliefs, God would hate them.

1. How do you know who all the unbelievers are?
2. Where did I say God hates every apostate?

I love those who are in Christ. I love them as Brothers and Sisters in our Lord Jesus Christ. This is not a love I feel for my son or my mum. It is nevertheless a generalised expression of love, and does not require the names and addresses of all those in Christ.

That's why "love thy neighbor" means ALL we encounter. Believers AND unbelievers.

This has been nowhere near proven.

[DannyM]

So is the perfect love of God somehow imperfect when not applied to “us”?

No. You asked what can separate us(you and me) from God's love.

No. I asked of God’s love can fail. Then I asked if anything can separate us from God’s love. If God loves every man head for head, and if God’s love cannot fail, then what can separate us (every man head for head) from God’s love?

Of course God's love is perfect. As you and I both have shown we agree on. God's love isn't imperfect, but people are. And obviously the way we love, is imperfect, as well.

Then how can it fail to draw every man head for head?

Jeremiah 31:3

3The LORD appeared to us in the past, saying:
I have loved you with an everlasting love; I have drawn you with loving-kindness.

“Drawn” here means to draw, drag.

If God loves every man head for head, and if God’s love draws, why has He not drawn them to Him? Is there some other, ‘lower level’ to God’s omnipotent, irresistible love?

Indeed. God’s love is infallible. Nothing in the entire universe can separate us from God.
But, wouldn't you also agree that unbelief will ultimately separate some(not us) from God?

I hope this line of reasoning is leading somewhere.

If God’s love is so irresistible, and if God loves all men head for head, then don’t you see your problem, Rick?

[jlay]

I'm saying our human meaning of "hate" doesn't mean exactly what God means by "hate".

I'm perfectly fine with that. My issue is with where it was stated by Byb, and in a later post, you quoted as agreeing with that position. Byb is welcome to correct, but his answer implied to me, that when the bible says that God hates lying lips, that it isn't really what it is saying. He just said, 'anthropomorphism.' which isn't an answer at all. So, at face value, all I know is he is attempting to refute what verses I supplied that support God having a hatred. I do apologize for lumping you in. Peace.

Danny,

I understand Rick's frustration.
You say, "I love all who are in Christ." Great. Who are they? "I don't know." And I hate all those who hate my God." Who are they? "I don't know."
It's really kind of ambiguos.

No. I asked of God’s love can fail. Then I asked if anything can separate us from God’s love. If God loves every man head for head, and if God’s love cannot fail, then what can separate us (every man head for head) from God’s love?

Here, you are plucking a verse out of Romans 8 to suit some other argument. Contextually, this verse isn't at all intended for this argument.

Then how can it fail to draw every man head for head?

This is a loaded question. Man's failure to respond to God love is not a failure of God's love. Again, you are starting with this extreme Calvinistic view, and then cherry picking verses out of their context to defend this position.

[RickD]

Rick, I’m not accepting that “love your neighbour” means exclusively unbelievers. I’ve answered why in a previous post.

But for argument sake let’s say I’m commanded to love all unbelievers. Well, I don’t. If this be a sin, then, shock horror, I’m a sinner.

I'm not accepting nor proposing that "love your neighbor" means exclusively unbelievers. I'm saying a neighbor is anyone we have contact with. Both believers and unbelievers.
I'm not saying you're commanded to love(verb, showing love) to all unbelievers, unless you come in contact with all unbelievers. I'm just talking about loving those we come in contact with. I'm not sure why you keep applying "all" to what I'm saying. I never said "all", meaning every person on the face of the earth.

If you don't know who God hates, then how are you making the assumption that God hates Jim and Alex? How do you know that Jim or Alex aren't the 21st century "Saul of Tarsus"?

What? I never made this assumption!

You wrote:

Do you even know what a relativist is, dom? Sure, I'm saying God does not love all men, and indeed hates some.

Where am I told to love arrogant, autonomous man? I don’t love atheists, Rick. Do you really love these people? I love whom I love and I love Christ and those in Christ. God doesn’t even love all people, Rick, so how do you think I should fair against such competition?

So, I'm going way out on a limb here, when I take "God doesn't even love all people, Rick" to mean that if He doesn't love all people, then He must hate some people? Specifically the people(Alex, Jim et al) that this entire conversation is about?

I can't see how you are deciding who to love.



I’m not “deciding” who to love.

Where am I told to love arrogant, autonomous man? I don’t love atheists, Rick. Do you really love these people? I love whom I love and I love Christ and those in Christ. God doesn’t even love all people, Rick, so how do you think I should fair against such competition?

Danny, surely you are making a distinction about who you love. By saying "I don't love atheists", and "I love those whom I love, and I love Christ and those in Christ." You are making a distinction. By what, are you making that distinction?

1. How do you know who all the unbelievers are?
2. Where did I say God hates every apostate?

Danny, for the sake of this argument, let's assume that in the end, there are 2 types of people: True children of God(believers), and everyone else(unbelievers). This quote is saying to me that you don't love those who are not in Christ.

Where am I told to love arrogant, autonomous man? I don’t love atheists, Rick. Do you really love these people? I love whom I love and I love Christ and those in Christ. God doesn’t even love all people, Rick, so how do you think I should fair against such competition?

I love those who are in Christ. I love them as Brothers and Sisters in our Lord Jesus Christ. This is not a love I feel for my son or my mum. It is nevertheless a generalised expression of love,

So you are agreeing with me that there are different levels of God's love, like I'm saying?

That's why "love thy neighbor" means ALL we encounter. Believers AND unbelievers.



This has been nowhere near proven.

Danny, this is a basic belief in Christianity. How can you see otherwise?

[DannyM]

Danny,

I understand Rick's frustration.
You say, "I love all who are in Christ." Great. Who are they? "I don't know." And I hate all those who hate my God." Who are they? "I don't know."
It's really kind of ambiguos.

As ambiguous as your loving unbelievers? I've explained above what I mean by loving Christians. And the "don't know who they are" bit equally applies to you.

No. I asked of God’s love can fail. Then I asked if anything can separate us from God’s love. If God loves every man head for head, and if God’s love cannot fail, then what can separate us (every man head for head) from God’s love?

Here, you are plucking a verse out of Romans 8 to suit some other argument.

Contextually, this verse isn't at all intended for this argument.

J, Nothing is out of context. I’m talking about God’s love. If God is love, if God’s love draws, drags us towards Him, and if nothing in the universe can separate us from God’s love, then there is a problem here for you, and not me. Unless you want to say there are different ‘degrees’ of God’s love. Then we can talk about that. Do you, like Rick believe that God’s hate is merely a ‘lesser kind of love’?

Then how can it fail to draw every man head for head?

This is a loaded question. Man's failure to respond to God love is not a failure of God's love. Again, you are starting with this extreme Calvinistic view, and then cherry picking verses out of their context to defend this position.[/quote]

No cherry-picking here. If that’s the case then give me a comprehensive biblical rebuttal to the point I’m trying to make. I’m not a Calvinist, J. I couldn’t even outline the 5 points for you. I’m McGuireist. Of course I agree with you that God’s love never fails.

[Byblos]

I'm saying our human meaning of "hate" doesn't mean exactly what God means by "hate".

I'm perfectly fine with that. My issue is with where it was stated by Byb, and in a later post, you quoted as agreeing with that position. Byb is welcome to correct, but his answer implied to me, that when the bible says that God hates lying lips, that it isn't really what it is saying. He just said, 'anthropomorphism.' which isn't an answer at all. So, at face value, all I know is he is attempting to refute what verses I supplied that support God having a hatred. I do apologize for lumping you in. Peace.

I wasn't attempting to refute anything. Anthropomorphism is used to explain how God's emotions are not the same as human emotions and how we need to be careful to distinguish between the two lest we fall prey to another type of argument that purportedly refutes God's immutability and, by extension, his omnipotence and omniscience. No more and no less. I think this link sums up very nicely what I'm trying to say.

Then how can it fail to draw every man head for head?

This is a loaded question. Man's failure to respond to God love is not a failure of God's love. Again, you are starting with this extreme Calvinistic view, and then cherry picking verses out of their context to defend this position.

Not a loaded question at all. Theologians from the early ages have struggled with the question of why some are saved and others aren't, with no clear answers emerging, without restoring to pelagianism, that is.

[RickD]

No. I asked of God’s love can fail. Then I asked if anything can separate us from God’s love. If God loves every man head for head, and if God’s love cannot fail, then what can separate us (every man head for head) from God’s love?

Danny, I already said unbelief can separate some from God's love. I'm certainly not implying, by that, God's love can fail. Are we getting back to basics again? Man has the free will in this case, to ultimately choose God, and His love, or reject Him. That doesn't equate to God's love failing. Unless you are saying if God's love is unfailing, then no one will be separated from God's love. Isn't that universalism?

Of course God's love is perfect. As you and I both have shown we agree on. God's love isn't imperfect, but people are. And obviously the way we love, is imperfect, as well.



Then how can it fail to draw every man head for head?

Either His love won't fail to draw every man head to head(universalism), or the choice of some to reject God will seem to you to be God's love failing, when it is actually man failing.

Danny, who is Jeremiah 31:3 written to? Is it written to all men?

“Drawn” here means to draw, drag.

If God loves every man head for head, and if God’s love draws, why has He not drawn them to Him? Is there some other, ‘lower level’ to God’s omnipotent, irresistible love?

Winner, winner, chicken dinner!!!! Finally you're seeing what I've been trying to say. There are different levels of God's love. Just like we as humans have different "levels'' of love. I love football, I love my dog, I love my family, I love believers, I love my neighbors, I love God. All different kinds, or levels of love.

If God’s love is so irresistible, and if God loves all men head for head, then don’t you see your problem, Rick?

If God's love is so irresistable that no man would resist, then why even put us through this fleshly life? Why not just create all men in heaven? Danny, if some angels, who experienced God "face to face" can resist Him, then why can't you believe men who can't see God "face to face" yet, can't resist Him?

[B. W.]

We must be equally sure we do not apply 'Anthropomorphism' to define God’s Love as well. Paul points out that God’s Love is deep and vast, that we can only know but a little thru Christ Jesus in Eph 3:19c.

In 1 Corinthians 13:6 we find a simple definition of such Love and verse 6 points out the fact that for God’s Love to be Love, it must also hate in order for Love to be love. This hate is described as isn’t happy with injustice, unrighteousness, iniquity but happy with the truth.

That is a far deeper saying than we realize – in the following verses you have Agape love in Greek tense cited as ‘not easily provoked’ this does not imply never provoked…but rather not easily provoked. When walking according to the Truth – Love takes no account of evil. To come to the truth means as Jesus said in John 3 – come to His light to be forgiven. Hence, God’s Love provides away for evil doers to be forgiven, and their slate wiped cleaned upon coming to the truth about themselves and Christ. This truth about self, is that as evil doers (sinners) they are enemies of God and God does hate his enemies while at the same time loves them enough to offer an escape from the wrath to come.

1 Corinthians 13:6

(KJV) Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

(GNB) love is not happy with evil, but is happy with the truth.

(GW) It isn't happy when injustice is done, but it is happy with the truth.

(ISV) Is never glad with sin, But always glad to side with truth, Whene'er the truth should win.

(LEB) it does not rejoice at unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth,

(LITV) does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices in the truth.

For Agape Love to be love it must also hate evil, sin, and provides the honest truthful just way for such doers to be forgiven and reconciled. This just way is voluntary for it to be truly just and loving. Sinners – enemies of God: Look at these verses: Nahum 1:2, Romans 5:10c, Psalms 68:21c, Psalms 11:5… and Romans 5:10 these verse indeed show that we Christians were once classed as God’s enemies – those he whom hates… but whose love changed us thru Truth of Christ…

This is a foreign concept for many people in these modern times: God’s Love Hates…

Years ago, it was understood and great revivals broke forth worldwide due to understanding it. God’s love is not happy with injustice, unrighteousness, iniquity but happy with the truth… God’s wrath is for his enemies. All humanity is classed as God’s enemies but thru God’s unfathomable love, God provides a means of truth to forgive his enemies who come to the truth and forever change them thru reconciliation of God’s work on the cross/resurrection. That is what love does – rejoices in the truth. So reader, if you do not know Christ Jesus, come to the truth about yourself and surrender to God who loves you enough to reach down and save you from yourself, the devil, and the world.

Those were the messages of old. The Apostle Peter, if alive today in the year 2011 would have been accused of teaching a hate fill insensitive message in Acts 2:14-35, 36, 37, 38c and Stephen in Acts 7:52 as well too.

The Seeker Sensitive approach today bases the concept of God’s love on the principles of the eastern religious systems, mainly Buddhist thought and ideas about God's love have become Anthropomorphically based. So be careful when God’s love no longer offends or calls to his enemies/those God’s hates to surrender and be reconciled back to be loved by God...who demonstrated his love upon the cross and offer grace - you can trust and surrender to a God who does that... He is worthy...

There is this troubling passage in Hosea 9:15 that the writer knew about God and spoke about this very subject… Love them no more – no more chances to warn, to call to return and no more messages to be reconciled and those that heard Hosea died in foreign lands due to being cut off from God’s love; however, God’s love still called to their future progeny to return…

God’s hate is just and is his love provoked… great is this mystery…
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[RickD]

J, Nothing is out of context. I’m talking about God’s love. If God is love, if God’s love draws, drags us towards Him, and if nothing in the universe can separate us from God’s love, then there is a problem here for you, and not me. Unless you want to say there are different ‘degrees’ of God’s love. Then we can talk about that. Do you, like Rick believe that God’s hate is merely a ‘lesser kind of love’?

Danny, the "us" that you are referring to is believers, not unbelievers. The bible isn't saying that nothing can separate unbelievers from the love of God. And just to clear things up, I don't believe "hate" is a lesser kind of love, in all cases. The context has to determine the meaning. I believe when God hates something bad, then hate is closer to the definition of hate we know. When the bible says God hates a person, then the case can be made for hate meaning "a lesser, or different kind of love".

[DannyM]

I'm not accepting nor proposing that "love your neighbor" means exclusively unbelievers. I'm saying a neighbor is anyone we have contact with. Both believers and unbelievers.
I'm not saying you're commanded to love(verb, showing love) to all unbelievers, unless you come in contact with all unbelievers. I'm just talking about loving those we come in contact with. I'm not sure why you keep applying "all" to what I'm saying. I never said "all", meaning every person on the face of the earth.

So you don’t love unbelievers then? Wow, it took a while, but we got there.

I believe “love your neighbour” means act with love and kindness to those in need, those less fortunate than yourself and those who are in need. “Neighbour” kind of gives the close-proximity game away.

If you don't know who God hates, then how are you making the assumption that God hates Jim and Alex? How do you know that Jim or Alex aren't the 21st century "Saul of Tarsus"?

What? I never made this assumption!

Do you even know what a relativist is, dom? Sure, I'm saying God does not love all men, and indeed hates some.

Where am I told to love arrogant, autonomous man? I don’t love atheists, Rick. Do you really love these people? I love whom I love and I love Christ and those in Christ. God doesn’t even love all people, Rick, so how do you think I should fair against such competition?

Yep, I said God hates some, and I did not say God hates Jim and Alex. See above for clarification. Rick, please acknowledge this.

So, I'm going way out on a limb here, when I take "God doesn't even love all people, Rick" to mean that if He doesn't love all people, then He must hate some people? Specifically the people(Alex, Jim et al) that this entire conversation is about

Yep, you’ve got it all wrong again. Yes, God hates some. How on earth am I supposed to know whether Alex and Jim are in that “some“? And more importantly, where have I ever said this?

Danny, surely you are making a distinction about who you love. By saying "I don't love atheists", and "I love those whom I love, and I love Christ and those in Christ." You are making a distinction. By what, are you making that distinction?

This means I specifically love those whom I know and love, it also means that I love those in Christ. Do I love those who are in Christ with the same passion as I love Christ? No. But that will be achieved in the next life.

1. How do you know who all the unbelievers are?
2. Where did I say God hates every apostate?

Danny, for the sake of this argument, let's assume that in the end, there are 2 types of people: True children of God(believers), and everyone else(unbelievers). This quote is saying to me that you don't love those who are not in Christ.[/quote]

Rick, can’t you see what I’m saying? I don’t have to know every single man in Christ to say to you that I love my Brothers and sisters in Christ. Those who are in Christ, I love. This can be assumed from the outset!

I love those who are in Christ. I love them as Brothers and Sisters in our Lord Jesus Christ. This is not a love I feel for my son or my mum. It is nevertheless a generalised expression of love,

So you are agreeing with me that there are different levels of God's love, like I'm saying?

LOL. No, I’m not. Who was it that mentioned anthropopathism?

That's why "love thy neighbor" means ALL we encounter. Believers AND unbelievers.

This has been nowhere near proven.
Danny, this is a basic belief in Christianity. How can you see otherwise?

Exemplified in your passage about the good Samaritan? Sorry, but I don’t buy that. Please show me how this is “the basic belief in Christianity”.

[jlay]

J, Nothing is out of context. I’m talking about God’s love. If God is love, if God’s love draws, drags us towards Him, and if nothing in the universe can separate us from God’s love, then there is a problem here for you, and not me. Unless you want to say there are different ‘degrees’ of God’s love. Then we can talk about that. Do you, like Rick believe that God’s hate is merely a ‘lesser kind of love’?

Obviously, I disagree, and see it as totally out of context. The context of the 'US' in Romans 8 is those who are already 'In Christ." Romans 8:1. Those who are saved can not be seperated. You are applying a condition that those in Christ are afforded, to a sweeping generalization, and thus implying that those who are lost are not loved, in any form or fashion, nor are they even offered the love of the cross of Christ in the 1st place. That my friend is as extreme Calvanists as you can get. Regardless of whether you know TULIP or not. Further, It has nothing to do with degrees, and I am not refuting or defending Rick on that point in my reply to you.
Regarding degrees. Although I don't agree with Rick in how he describes this. I do find that a believer is experiencing a love that is reserved for those who believe. That in itself has no bearing on the availability of that love. If I say, everyone can experience my ultraphonic supersonic sound system. It is available to all to experience. Does that mean all will? No. The condidion is that everyone must step into the green circle to experience the celestrial vibrations of the ultraphonic supersonic sound system. So, it is not at all contrary to the immutability of God to say that although God loves all, not all will share in that love. Nor does it weaken God's love. Someone, maybe you, used the term irresistable. That is VERY much a Calvinist term. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irresistible_grace

No cherry-picking here. If that’s the case then give me a comprehensive biblical rebuttal to the point I’m trying to make. I’m not a Calvinist, J. I couldn’t even outline the 5 points for you.

Already did this earlier in the thread, showing the contradictions with certain scriptures. You didn't address.

[DannyM]

J, Nothing is out of context. I’m talking about God’s love. If God is love, if God’s love draws, drags us towards Him, and if nothing in the universe can separate us from God’s love, then there is a problem here for you, and not me. Unless you want to say there are different ‘degrees’ of God’s love. Then we can talk about that. Do you, like Rick believe that God’s hate is merely a ‘lesser kind of love’?

Danny, the "us" that you are referring to is believers, not unbelievers. The bible isn't saying that nothing can separate unbelievers from the love of God. And just to clear things up, I don't believe "hate" is a lesser kind of love, in all cases. The context has to determine the meaning. I believe when God hates something bad, then hate is closer to the definition of hate we know. When the bible says God hates a person, then the case can be made for hate meaning "a lesser, or different kind of love".

I have seen the "us" bit. I'm talking about the power of God's love. If only you and J would actually see this.

Nice juggling there on the "hate" thing, Brother

[DannyM]

J, Bring the rebuttal back then. Enlighten me since I must've missed the sucker punch.

[DannyM]

Rick, sorry for not quoting you but it's hard keeping up with multiple posts.

Please show me the Scripture for God loving every man head for head, and the level or 'degree' of that love.

Back to basics? Scripture, Bro?