Evidence for God from Science

OneFishRedFish wrote:I dont see a problem with allowing different religions to view God ni their own way.

The problem is because it is their way and not His way. Eph. 4:5

From what I see here, this section deals with the conseuences that Satan and Eve have to live with. I don't see anything about Jesus here, and I also don't see why you brought this verse up?

The woman's offspring is Christ. When He writes "He will pound your head, and you will bite his heel", the meaning is that Satan will have a hand in Jesus' death, which will be like a bite to the heel (inconsequential). Christ, however, by His death will deal a fatal blow to Satan (like a head-wound).

If you don't see this in this verse then perhaps another which more clearly talks about the coming Messiah: Deuteronomy 18:18-19

The fact still remains that Moses wrote about a coming Messiah. Jesus claims to be that Messiah (John 5:46 and many other places). If that is true, then the Mosaical Law is obsolete (Hebrews 7:11-12; 8:7-13). If that is not true, then the New Testament is fraudulent. It goes to the heart of your argument for simultaneous, separate but equal covenants.

Respectfully,

kmart you said alot earlier in the post that the jews wanted jesus dead but the romans did it. yes the romans did it because jesus commanded
Pilate that it must be done.


John 19

6As soon as the chief priests and their officials saw him, they shouted, "Crucify! Crucify!"
But Pilate answered, "You take him and crucify him. As for me, I find no basis for a charge against him."

7The Jews insisted, "We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God."

8When Pilate heard this, he was even more afraid, 9and he went back inside the palace. "Where do you come from?" he asked Jesus, but Jesus gave him no answer. 10"Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?"

11Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin."
12From then on, Pilate tried to set Jesus free, but the Jews kept shouting, "If you let this man go, you are no friend of Caesar. Anyone who claims to be a king opposes Caesar."

13When Pilate heard this, he brought Jesus out and sat down on the judge's seat at a place known as the Stone Pavement (which in Aramaic is Gabbatha). 14It was the day of Preparation of Passover Week, about the sixth hour.
"Here is your king," Pilate said to the Jews.

15But they shouted, "Take him away! Take him away! Crucify him!"
"Shall I crucify your king?" Pilate asked.
"We have no king but Caesar," the chief priests answered.

16Finally Pilate handed him over to them to be crucified.

In the words of Christ himself it was the jews who handed him over that were guilty of the greatest sin.
Pilate believe Jesus.

19Pilate had a notice prepared and fastened to the cross. It read:|sc JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS. 20Many of the Jews read this sign, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and the sign was written in Aramaic, Latin and Greek. 21The chief priests of the Jews protested to Pilate, "Do not write 'The King of the Jews,' but that this man claimed to be king of the Jews."

22Pilate answered, "What I have written, I have written."

The Paradosis of Pilate say that before his death pilate was a Christian that beleived in christ.

From the paradosis of Pilate, chapters 8-10

Caesar questioned Pilate, and commanded an officer called Albius to behead him, saying.
"As this man raised his hand against the righteous man called Christ, so shall he fall the same war, and find no deliverance." And when Pilate came to the place of execution. He prayed silently. "Lord, do not distroy me with the wicked Hebrews, for it was through the lawless Nation of the jews that I raised my hand against you, because they plotted a revolt against me. You know that I acted in ignorance. therefore do not condemn me because of thsi sin, but pardon me, Lord and your servant Procla, who stands with me in this hour of my death, whom you made to prophesy that you must be nailed to the crossss. do not condemn her also because of my sin, but pardon us and a number among your rightious ones" And behold, when Pilate has finished his prayer, there sounded a voice from heaven, "All generations and families of the gentiles shall call you blessed, because in your governorship all was fulfilled which the prophets foretold about me.

The Paradosis of Pilate
Original date of composition 2nd cent CE ?
Original language Greek
Provenance uncertain
Earliest Extant Manuscript
early medieval (latin)

from the lost bible forgoten scriptures revieled
by proff JR Porter (theology)

Interesting stuff Deborah. Not that I accept it as truth by default but very interesting nonetheless.

sorry to see that someone would swallow the law theory for the Jew. I do not know if you noticed while you studied your Bible, but the "church" was a Jewish entity entirely until Peter was shown the vision of the sheet in Acts as recorded by Luke. Gentiles were the mystery as they were included into the ONE body of Christ Jesus. Jesus is the fulfillment of the LAW and of the sacrificial system(Read Hebrews-fyi Hebrew is a term for JEW) as gentiles we were included in the New Covenant and if you read Ephesians and Galatians it very clearly states that there is no longer any division of ANY type. Some say that I am promoting "replacement theology, but in fact it is inclusion theology as is clearly taught in the New Testament no matter what translation you read. Even the Jehova's Witnesses and the Mormons haven't translated this out of the Bible. Please always allow the Bible to speak for truth and let every man be a liar because Jesus is the Messiah or Christ they are 2 words that are synonymous 1 Hebrew transliteration and the other Greek. If Jesus is not the Messiah as He said then we are still in our sins and to be pitied above all men. But thank God He was the Christ and I am saved through His righteousness by faith in Him, not anything I have done to keep the LAW; and no Jew will ever be righteous by the law either, try reading Romans. God bless you and may the Holy Spirit illuminate your understanding and remove the darkness from your mind. It can not be done without Him.

Felgar wrote:Interesting stuff Deborah. Not that I accept it as truth by default but very interesting nonetheless.

Felgar after reading John, I believed that it was more than possable that Pilate became a christian. It is clear from what is said in John that he knew there was something about Jesus.

all that is in the bible in the book of John.

The Paradosis of Pilate is not in the bible, it is Theology, but is very interesting as you have said.

Some people of course group the bible as theology as well

Deborah wrote:God help me I have no desire to make a Jew understand truth. It is unchristian and unacceptable. They were responsable for the murder of our lord god in human form, (Jesus) From what I read in the bible I felt that, and after the movie passion of Christ all it did was make me mad
First it was the way they treat Palistine, yes i know both sides are as bad as each other! Then I read the bible, inforcing me being mad at them, then the movie made it worse. The finding on the net that 11 million peoples were murdered in the holicost, 5 million were not jews, 3 million of those where Christian. 6 million Polish people were murdered 3 million jews and 3 million Christians, yet all the world knows is about the 6 million jews. Why? because they jump up and down and shout the loudest i can't feel bad for 6 million Jews because I see it as 11 million of my fellow man and it makes me angry.
I am well aware it is not christian to be so mad at any race of people, so I am praying for the understanding to overcome this anger, which I know is not of God. I never thought of myself as a racist before, but i guess I am Am I the only person of the Christian faith to feel this way?

Who has disproportionate influence in media, my dear? Christians? Poles?

Tash wrote:all this jewish prejudice is just insecurity of faith

Could you elaborate, please? The bible says that unconverted Jews are enemies of the Gospel and have been persecuting Christians since Christ.

vvart wrote:I was recently arguing with a Jewish person about how Jesus is the messiah and this is what he said:

"Now, as for Jesus... I do not know enough about Christianity to seperate the teachings of Jesus from the teachings of Paul or Jhon or Luke. However, the BIG glaring reason why it is impossible for a Jew to follow a prophet such as Jesus, is that he teaches that the Laws in the Torah nolonger apply. As I said, the Torah is Eternal, it can not be added to and it can not be subtracted from. For Jesus to say, Love your neighbor but don't worry about keeping Kosher, is, according to the very word of the five books of moses a CLEAR sign that such a prophet is a false prophet."

"Also, there is a very basic Jewish principle that I have repeated a few times that nobody can fuffill your obligations save another person with the same obligations. Since Jesus did not commit all sins, nor did he force all Jews to break all the laws, Jesus can not suffer on behalf of the people to anull any wrong doings the people or individuals have done. This applies to being Sacrificed on the cross, as much as it applies to a 13 year old boy saying the blessing over food for me."

can someone shed some light on this matter?

I'll try ... when I have witness to people of the Jewish Faith, I run into road blocks and from this, I have learned a few lessons to be sucessful.

First off, many Jews remain fearful of Christians due solely to racism disguising itself as Christianity as the testimony of history records. So keep this in mind. Next, rememeber that the Jewish people are still around, became a Nation born in one day as Isaiah wrote about. View them as part of the vine we were grafted into and that God has not forsaken them due to his personal covenant with them. I know this may shock people but they are still here - without the Jewish people, we ourselves would not know God.

View the Jewish people as having a partial revelation of God and that they lack the full revelation of God thru Jesus. They are looking for a Messiah that will begin an earthly reign. They cannot see why the Messiah had come earlier and set up a heavenly kingdom. It is here where you can enter a discussion. To do so involves knowing and using the Old Testament to show that the Messiah has already come and to show why he came and what purpose he came.

For a good example of using OT scriptures and how to use them, follow B. W.'s comments on The Trinity Thread. The recent Elohim example is a prime example of what I mean. He takes a grammar truth and shows, by context of OT scripture, the Messiah - instead of using New testament quotes - you could use Psalms 104 and the Isaiah Road -chapters 42 - 66 and lead into Isaiah 53-55. Ask them what Isaiah 53-55 means first so the door to discussion remains open and honest. Why Isaiah? It is one of the oldest complete text of the Bible discovered and thus avoids the best-text-argument you may run up against - Jewish scripture verses Christian Scripture arguements: Both use Isaiah as found from dead sea scrolls and dated earliest of all is the Isaiah text both use.

That is the best advise I can give - also check the Jews for Jesus web site, as well as others, for more tips.

Hope this Helps...

Locker wrote: I'll try ... when I have witness to people of the Jewish Faith, I run into road blocks and from this, I have learned a few lessons to be sucessful.

First off, many Jews remain fearful of Christians due solely to racism disguising itself as Christianity as the testimony of history records. So keep this in mind. Next, rememeber that the Jewish people are still around, became a Nation born in one day as Isaiah wrote about. View them as part of the vine we were grafted into and that God has not forsaken them due to his personal covenant with them. I know this may shock people but they are still here - without the Jewish people, we ourselves would not know God.

View the Jewish people as having a partial revelation of God and that they lack the full revelation of God thru Jesus. They are looking for a Messiah that will begin an earthly reign. They cannot see why the Messiah had come earlier and set up a heavenly kingdom. It is here where you can enter a discussion. To do so involves knowing and using the Old Testament to show that the Messiah has already come and to show why he came and what purpose he came.

For a good example of using OT scriptures and how to use them, follow B. W.'s comments on The Trinity Thread. The recent Elohim example is a prime example of what I mean. He takes a grammar truth and shows, by context of OT scripture, the Messiah - instead of using New testament quotes - you could use Psalms 104 and the Isaiah Road -chapters 42 - 66 and lead into Isaiah 53-55. Ask them what Isaiah 53-55 means first so the door to discussion remains open and honest. Why Isaiah? It is one of the oldest complete text of the Bible discovered and thus avoids the best-text-argument you may run up against - Jewish scripture verses Christian Scripture arguements: Both use Isaiah as found from dead sea scrolls and dated earliest of all is the Isaiah text both use.

That is the best advise I can give - also check the Jews for Jesus web site, as well as others, for more tips.

Hope this Helps...

I think this was the best explanation in the whole thread. Keep it simple. Be humble and don't stumble.

Cheesypie wrote:

Deborah wrote:God help me I have no desire to make a Jew understand truth. It is unchristian and unacceptable. They were responsable for the murder of our lord god in human form, (Jesus) From what I read in the bible I felt that, and after the movie passion of Christ all it did was make me mad
First it was the way they treat Palistine, yes i know both sides are as bad as each other! Then I read the bible, inforcing me being mad at them, then the movie made it worse. The finding on the net that 11 million peoples were murdered in the holicost, 5 million were not jews, 3 million of those where Christian. 6 million Polish people were murdered 3 million jews and 3 million Christians, yet all the world knows is about the 6 million jews. Why? because they jump up and down and shout the loudest i can't feel bad for 6 million Jews because I see it as 11 million of my fellow man and it makes me angry.
I am well aware it is not christian to be so mad at any race of people, so I am praying for the understanding to overcome this anger, which I know is not of God. I never thought of myself as a racist before, but i guess I am Am I the only person of the Christian faith to feel this way?

Who has disproportionate influence in media, my dear? Christians? Poles?

Huh? please explain, my post was months ago, and I no longer feel so angry, at least till I watch the news