The Sabbath, to keep or not to keep....

[BavarianWheels]

It is sloppy disregard.

To disregard and so then nullify God's Law is sloppy.
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[BavarianWheels]

If the Sabbath which was given to Jews as a covenant sign, is mandatory, then so is circumcision. And if so then as Paul rightly said, that the message of the gospel is void and of no use.

No. You're wrong. Here's why. Circumcision is not part of God's 10 and therefore obviously not perpetual as it was a shadow of things to come...that being that while "in the OT" the outward/physical sign of being in God's covenant was circumcision, in the NT or "new" covenant was that the circumcision was not physical, but spiritual and circumcision was of the heart and an inward and yet MORE stringent form of following God's law. Therefore if one was to make physical circumcision mandatory, so then all the law ( notice small letter law = ceremonial = shadows of things to come ) was to be followed. The 10 Commandments are perpetual...and the 4th Commandment is not a "shadow" ( a looking forward to something ), but was a looking back at Creation and that God is worthy of worship because He is God the Creator.

Do you not see that a person who never had the Old testament would not know the Ten commandments and yet, if he follows Christ he is following a standard way higher than the law.

I do. I also see that if we are followers of Christ, then we do as Christ did...and taught...and defended..."as was His custom"...and died and rested after it was finished...poetically the same as back at creation when God finished His work.

Its only a shadow of things to come, its not perfect and its not be followed when we are no longer slaves to sin, nor bonded to it. That was the very reason it was given to people who had hearts of stone, without Christ and did not know grace in the manner which we all did. We are not servants, he called us Friends and brothers.

My question "how is the law a better guide than the spirit?" Name whatever you want, sacrifices, ceremonies, clean/unclean, whatever, how does the law in any of its statues help you as a believer?

I notice you're listing ceremonial laws and not the LAW of God which is perpetual...the 10 Commandments. These ( the 10 ) are not a "better" guide, but they are what the Spirit submits to...and so follows...complies with...

And don't give me the basic right wrong crap, an atheist knows that too. How does the law, any one of the law written in the first five books of the bible help your spiritual life? what have you gained because of it, any personal testimony?

Not the laws written in the first 5 books of the bible... I'm speaking of God's perpetual Law. The 10.
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[neo-x]

The ten are found right there, don't they in the first five books, if you obey Christ, you do not even need to go to the ten laws. If you had read my post and thought on it for a minute or two you would have seen I addressed it. It has nothing to do with the laws itself but the idea that Christ introduced a whole new Covenant, a whole new chapter. Those laws, the ten main laws were also written on tablets of stone, not on hearts of men as in the New covenant. Why do you need to go to those laws? when the spirit of Christ is in you and guides you along the teachings of Christ. You seem to be missing the actual substance, the ten laws were given to Israel, we believers were not given those ten laws, Christ commanded us with a new commandment and that is more than all the laws combined because it comes through the spirit, not the stone tablets, not the works of men, nor through anything. When you are a child of God, why do you need a stone tablet to guide you? beats me.

What makes you think they are perpetual?

[RickD]

RickD wrote:
I believe this whole sabbath issue simply comes down to this:
Romans 14:5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.

And again, you've been shown that in context of this passage, the sabbaths and days spoken of were the festival days, the sabbaths of weeks, and of years...NOT THE SABBATH OF CREATION.

Notice, for instance, you have not quit eating and drinking...please address why you've not quit eating and drinking.

Bav, I know you believe that, but I disagree, and haven't been shown that at all. As far as eating and drinking, I have no idea what you're saying. In my mind, every day that God created, is special. Not just Friday sunset to Saturday sunset.

You tell me what traditions you are holding to. You're only "holding to" 9 of God's 10 Commandments. Look at Christ's words. I think you, yourself said God does not require worship...

Bav, I'm NOT holding to 9 of the 10 Commandments. I don't live my life trying to obey the 9 commandments.
Matthew 22:37-40 37 And He said to him, “ ‘ You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and [a]foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘ You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”
Every one of the 9 commandments besides observing the sabbath, as you say, falls under these 2 commandments. Love God, and neighbor. The whole Law(capital L), and prophets hang on these 2 commandments. I don't see observing the sabbath as SDA requires, in that list. It's just not there. You can't ignore that.

[jlay]

To disregard and so then nullify God's Law is sloppy.

No one is nullifying the Law.

Galatians 5:14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

James 2:8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.

[BavarianWheels]

What makes you think they are perpetual?

Written by God's own hand

In stone

In the Ark of the Covenant

Points to sin

Lead to Christ

Set apart from the ceremonial laws

9/10 of these repeated in the NT

1/10 of it lived by Christ as an example

Paul admonishes us to uphold it, not nullify it.

...just off the top of my head.

"Circumcision is nothing, uncircumcision is nothing ( ceremonial law(s) ) Keeping God's commands is what counts." ( 1 Corinthians 7:19 )

We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

Every one of the 9 commandments besides observing the sabbath, as you say, falls under these 2 commandments. Love God, and neighbor. The whole Law(capital L), and prophets hang on these 2 commandments. I don't see observing the sabbath as SDA requires, in that list. It's just not there. You can't ignore that.

If the Law hang on these two commands, love God and neighbor, then it is as YOU say. The whole Law.

I'll tell you why...because the reference is a direct reference to the 10 Commandments.

The first four show us how to Love God. The last 6 show us how to get along with our fellow man or our neighbor.

What cannot be ignored is that it is there...it's right in the middle.
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[RickD]

Bav, the HS is not convicting me to hold to the Sabbath as SDA requires. So, I guess ultimately, this is between God and me. If He wants me to observe the sabbath, as SDA requires, then He will convict me, and show me that I'm in error. Just like I've said all along, this is between God, and me. I pray that we both will be open to the HS speaking to us in this. Either, this is an issue between each believer, and God, about whether one sees one day as more sacred than another, or you're correct, and all believers must observe the sabbath as SDA requires. We both can't be right.

[BavarianWheels]

Bav, the HS is not convicting me to hold to the Sabbath as SDA requires. So, I guess ultimately, this is between God and me. If He wants me to observe the sabbath, as SDA requires, then He will convict me, and show me that I'm in error. Just like I've said all along, this is between God, and me. I pray that we both will be open to the HS speaking to us in this. Either, this is an issue between each believer, and God, about whether one sees one day as more sacred than another, or you're correct, and all believers must observe the sabbath as SDA requires. We both can't be right.

It's not the SDA's that require it. You still fail to recognize and insist that the 4th Commandment is not God's Law by His own hand.

Do not EVER observe the Sabbath because you THINK the SDA "requires" it. Observe it because God does...by His own hand.

Until you get over YOUR OWN BELIEFS and start listening to the Spiritual Nature...you'll continue to miss out on God's Sabbath as He knows it to be good for His created children.

• Undisputed FACT: God wrote it Himself.
  
  Undisputed FACT: The Law points to sin, therefore to do otherwise is to sin
  
  Undisputed FACT: The Law is Spiritual. We are not.
  
  Undisputed FACT: The sinful nature cannot submit to God's Law
  
  Undisputed FACT: The sinner ( saved by grace through faith ) does not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
  
  Undisputed FACT: The Spiritual Nature does and can submit to God's Law.
  
  Undisputed FACT: God's Law is holy and righteous.
  
  Undisputed FACT: Love God and love your neighbor...the whole Law and Prophets hang on these two
  
  Undisputed FACT: Commandments 1-4 = How to Love God
  
  Undisputed FACT: Commandments 5-10 = How to love our neighbor.

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[RickD]

It's not the SDA's that require it. You still fail to recognize and insist that the 4th Commandment is not God's Law by His own hand.

Yes, it is the SDAs that require observance of the sabbath. It came directly from the SDA link I posted. Here, it's in this link, #20:http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html
I never said the 4th commandment wasn't from God. Never said it. If you paid attention, jlay, neo, and I just disagree with your interpretation. That doesn't mean we disagree with the bible, or God. As difficult as this may be for you to believe, the SDA's, and your interpretation, is not equal to scripture.

Do not EVER observe the Sabbath because you THINK the SDA "requires" it. Observe it because God does...by His own hand.

Again, if I felt God was leading me to worship on Friday eve to Saturday eve, then I would.

Until you get over YOUR OWN BELIEFS and start listening to the Spiritual Nature...you'll continue to miss out on God's Sabbath as He knows it to be good for His created children.

Seriously, Bav? Start listening to the spiritual nature? How many times, in this thread alone, have I said the HS in me is not leading me to worship on the sabbath?
Our true Sabbath is found in Christ alone, and not in the keeping of the Old Covenant sign of the Sabbath given to Israel, so I'm not missing out on God's sabbath.

[neo-x]

neo-x wrote:
What makes you think they are perpetual?


Written by God's own hand

In stone

In the Ark of the Covenant

Points to sin

Lead to Christ

Set apart from the ceremonial laws

9/10 of these repeated in the NT

1/10 of it lived by Christ as an example

Paul admonishes us to uphold it, not nullify it.

...just off the top of my head.

Bav, why cant you realize that God writing it in stone does not make it perpetual. How does that make it perpetual? God made man, and even he dies, the world he made, but it will end one day. God making something doesn't make it perpetual just because he wrote it or made it. And more so in this case what he wrote he later wrote to overrule that, as I have pointed out to you. Is it that hard to understand? Did you not read the reference of jeremiah the Lord himself said that he will usher a new covenant, one that is NOT ON A STONE TABLET"

Do you realize that the Ark of the covenant is not the covenant that God made with us who are in Christ? Do you understand this Bav?

Paul never admonishes us to uphold it,

PLease read it carefully, Read Rom 7:7

What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

Paul is talking about the Law...which Law? That is the Tenth comandment, right there, Bav. Not the ceremonial law nor the scarificial law, but the tenth commandement which paul refers to as LAW.
he clearly renders them as part of it. You want to differ?

and further

2 cor 3:7-10
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

Hello! that's the ministry of death, the BIG TEN LAWS you are so bent on proving to be perpetuel.
What was engraved on stone, the ceremonial law, the sacrificial law, the dietary law? no, the ten commandments. And Paul is clearly saying that they are done with because the spirit of Christ brings a greater glory. The old one brought death, Christ brought Life. The laws are not bad, but they are inferior to the covenant that Christ ushered and therefore can not be enough to sustain the glory of God inside us. How much more clarification do you need Bav?

[Eureka]

Wow! This is such an interesting thread! Was it discontinued by a moderator? Did members stop posting because they each felt that they had provided adequate and exhaustive arguments?

I am trying to read each of the discussions on this board with an open mind, but it has been difficult to approach any topic without some sort of pre-established bias. I hadn't thought much about obeying the Sabbath until I read this thread, and I was genuinely persuaded by arguments from those who advocate obedience to the Sabbath and those who dismiss this Law.

Is this discussion over?

Best,

E

[RickD]

Wow! This is such an interesting thread! Was it discontinued by a moderator? Did members stop posting because they each felt that they had provided adequate and exhaustive arguments?

Eureka, I can only speak for myself, but I said pretty much all I could say on the subject, with nothing new being posted.

I hadn't thought much about obeying the Sabbath until I read this thread, and I was genuinely persuaded by arguments from those who advocate obedience to the Sabbath and those who dismiss this Law.

Are you now being convicted to follow Sabbath worship?

[BavarianWheels]

Wow! This is such an interesting thread! Was it discontinued by a moderator? Did members stop posting because they each felt that they had provided adequate and exhaustive arguments?

I am trying to read each of the discussions on this board with an open mind, but it has been difficult to approach any topic without some sort of pre-established bias. I hadn't thought much about obeying the Sabbath until I read this thread, and I was genuinely persuaded by arguments from those who advocate obedience to the Sabbath and those who dismiss this Law.

Is this discussion over?

I'm glad this thread has brought you to thinking on the matter.

Hello! that's the ministry of death, the BIG TEN LAWS you are so bent on proving to be perpetuel.
What was engraved on stone, the ceremonial law, the sacrificial law, the dietary law? no, the ten commandments. And Paul is clearly saying that they are done with because the spirit of Christ brings a greater glory. The old one brought death, Christ brought Life. The laws are not bad, but they are inferior to the covenant that Christ ushered and therefore can not be enough to sustain the glory of God inside us. How much more clarification do you need Bav?

So you're saying God's Holy Law is a ministry of death? I would agree to an extent, but the best question to answer in regard to this is this; To whom is the Law a ministry of death? Example: Is the Law ( speaking of the 10 ) a ministry of death to a person/entity that is righteous? ( an angel perhaps )
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[jlay]

Wheels, that is what Paul said. Period.

He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10For what was (that is past tense) glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

What was engraved? The 10 Commands. What is the Spirit, Is it the Law? No. The fruit of the Spirit is Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.
Does a person walking in the spirit need the law? Does he need a law "not to commit adultery?" He is full of self-control and love. Does a person in the spirit need a law to not steal? Let's see, he's full of love and peace and goodness.
Does a person in the spirit need a temple to visit on a certain day of the week? No, he is full of faithfulness.
No, against such things there is no law. (Gal. 5:23)

Yet, you want to tell people to "obey" God. Then obey what He has decreed has been done away with, and embrace the new. Why would you glory in something that is said to have no glory NOW?

[BavarianWheels]

Wheels, that is what Paul said. Period.

He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10For what was (that is past tense) glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

What was engraved? The 10 Commands. What is the Spirit, Is it the Law? No. The fruit of the Spirit is Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.
Does a person walking in the spirit need the law? Does he need a law "not to commit adultery?" He is full of self-control and love. Does a person in the spirit need a law to not steal? Let's see, he's full of love and peace and goodness.
Does a person in the spirit need a temple to visit on a certain day of the week? No, he is full of faithfulness.
No, against such things there is no law. (Gal. 5:23)

Yet, you want to tell people to "obey" God. Then obey what He has decreed has been done away with, and embrace the new. Why would you glory in something that is said to have no glory NOW?

The short answer which you convieniently ignore is that it is a ministry of death to the sinner. It points at sin and we are born sinners. So how was it EVER glorious?? It is a ministry of life to those that live according to the Spirit. And so it remains glorious. See verse 9 that you ignored.
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