Total Depravity

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
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Jac3510
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Re: Total Depravity

Post by Jac3510 »

jlay wrote:That is a very good point. And it would seem that no one took the time to read the article I linked earlier in the discussion. It goes into some of the fundamental foundations of how the doctrine developed.
Pshhhh. Reading? Who does that? ;)

I'll read the last article you linked later and post my thoughts
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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Philip
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Re: Total Depravity

Post by Philip »

This may be exceptionally redundant and way too wordy, but here it goes anyway:

Sproul cuts to the heart of the matter with his framing of the real question behind this issue, when he asked: “Does God give the ability to come to Jesus to ALL men?” Well, someone please show me where in Scripture it tells us that God has limited His willingness to provide the ability to have faith to only SOME, especially as he has said He is patient and “not wanting ANYONE to perish but EVERYONE to come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9) and as He “wants ALL men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth”(1 Timothy 2:4, also Ezekiel 18:32). Throughout Scripture, the consistent and ONLY message is that faith is something that EVERYONE is to exercise in order to receive salvation (John 3:16, 18, 36; Acts 16:31). NOWHERE are we told that faith is something that unbelievers are to wait on God to give them before they can have it.

As for what can a man dead in his sins know, in Romans 1 we read, “For what CAN be know about God is PLAIN to them, because God has SHOWN it to them. For His invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, HAVE BEEN CLEARLY PERCEIVED, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although THEY KNEW God, THEY did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, THEY became fools, and EXCHANGED the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.”

So in Romans 1, we learn that a man, though separated from God, has been shown “CLEARLY” as to “what can be known about Him.” Not only that, but we see that MEN “EXCHANGED the glory of the immortal God …” Note that God indicates He had made available to such men "His own “glory,” and yet nonetheless they instead opted for an EXCHANGE - for sad, counterfeit gods/idols.

“And SINCE THEY did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.” Note that it was not because God didn’t choose THEM, but because THEY decided to ignore all He had already made them aware of. Furthermore: “…Though THEY KNOW God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.” So men, though they have repressed it, DO know that they sow their own doom. And why would God, through Paul, have made such a rhetorical accusation IF such men were the way they are (unrepentant) simply because they have NO CHOICE or ABILITY to do otherwise? Why would God link anything to a person's failure to do something that He had (supposedly) not given them the ability to do (repent!)to begin with? Why the threats, the warnings, the anger? How pointless and hypocritical these would seem. Unless, of course, such unsaved persons had (today, have) an option/offer/free gift that they STILL must RECEIVE, and CAN receive, but yet most will refuse to? That is the only thing that truly makes sense.

And IF a man cannot come to the Lord without God first opening their minds and hearts, what the heck was Paul and and Barnabas doing in all those Synagogues, trying to “convince,” to “persuade,” using “reason,” etc., AS IF people’s responses were a matter of THEIR wills? And IF their wills had nothing to do with whether or not they received salvation, then Paul and Barnabas' efforts make no sense, as they went FAR beyond merely relaying the Gospel message, as they were also intensely debating and using reason, arguments, etc.

Acts 28:23: “From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to CONVINCE them about Jesus.”

Acts 18: 4: “And he REASONED in the synagogue EVERY Sabbath, and TRIED TO PERSUADE Jews and Greeks.”

Acts 14:1: “At Iconium Paul and Barnabas went as usual into the Jewish synagogue. There they spoke so EFFECTIVELY that a great number of Jews and Gentiles believed.” Any hints here about some dramatic "regeneration?" No! And why would Paul and Barnabas’ speaking so “effectively” have to do with anything, anyway? As all of their efforts at PERSUASION would have been mere heretical hot air – IF all God does is command/regenerate one to belief. Yet here the emphasis is clearly on the effectiveness of the delivery and the receivers' willingness to evaluate and positively act upon such a persuasive message.

Colossians 2:12-13: “having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through YOUR faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.” Note whose faith it was that God responded to, just as He promises He will to ALL who are WILLING to have it: "YOUR faith." And the very next verse shows that “your” faith happened in the midst of also having been “dead in YOUR sins”:

2 Peter 3:9: “The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with YOU, not wanting ANYONE to perish, but EVERYONE to come to repentance.” So IF God is the one who must first regenerate a man before coming to belief, then WHY is He waiting? On WHAT? On WHOM? On Himself? NO! It tells us He is waiting on "YOU!" Think that just might involve a decision? Or Ezekiel 18:23: “Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked?” declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when THEY turn from their ways and live?” Well, if it pleases God for man to repent, does it make any sense that it also pleases him for some men to disobey His commands to repent? Does He WANT them to disobey His command and continue in rebellion? Or that he has made it IMPOSSIBLE for some to repent? And notice just who it is that does the turning away from sins so that they might live? “THEY” are the ones who clearly can both please God and CAN do so by repenting. This is absolutely clear!

But let’s admit the EFFECTUAL, end ramifications of the Five Points. IF they are a reality – let’s make them PERSONAL. We all have people who we have long loved and agonized over their unbelief. We also have very good reasons to believe that many of our loved ones have likely died in apparent unbelief – which is devastating to even think about. These might include a beloved mother or father, or a treasured uncle or grandparent. They might even include a much-loved dear brother or sister – lost, forever – in hell and eternal punishment. Knowing this has likely happened to people we have intensely loved, who we have long prayed over, witnessed to – for years/decades/perhaps even over a lifetime – it’s truly horrible and no doubt haunts us.

But what does Five Point Calvinism say is the ONLY reason any of these sons, daughters, fathers, mothers, friends, and other loved ones would ever be in hell? Calvinism asserts that it is ONLY because THAT IS THE DESTINY GOD CHOSE FOR THEM – and He did so BEFORE THEY WERE EVER BORN OR HAD EVER SINNED – even ONCE. We can mince words all we like, of how THESE loved ones chose unrepentance and sin. But a CHOICE implies at least one alternative. But as God certainly both always had and later implemented The Solution to sin through Jesus/The Cross, and yet He supposedly withheld it and also (supposedly) deliberately chose a never-ending nightmare for these same lost ones (THAT WE WERE TOLD TO LOVE AND PRAY FOR) we long held so dear? We must have been delusional fools to pray for salvation for people God has always known HE has chosen a different and horrific fate for. Are we told to pray hopelessly for something that is impossible/that there is NO CHOICE (for an UNCHOSEN loved one to be saved)? And while some might criticize this point as an appeal to emotion - Folks, something is seriously wrong with such a unScriptural doctrinal belief. It defies logic in every parameter - but FAR worse - it makes a mockery of God’s Holy and loving character. Are we to have an attitude of love and concern for the lost that is greater than Gods? Do we not hope that all we know will someday come to know the Lord? And yet He supposedly doesn't REALLY want many to? So we've been obediently loving and praying for people, many of whom God had already doomed before they were even born? Really? So He told us to love them, and yet He has ALWAYS hated them? Just arbitrarily decided that they would live out lives of misery and hopelessness, and THEN be punished for an eternity for sins He has trapped them in? REALLY?!!! Wow! :shakehead:

Yes, God is also a God of righteous judgment, but you just can’t separate that trait from His other traits of love, grace and mercy. And Five Point Calvinism's focus is on the first, but greatly minimizes and/or significantly ignores the others. When a man-made theological construct contradicts the plain meaning of so many Scriptures, is completely out of sync with what Scripture teaches us about God's Holy Character, and of which no uneducated, plain ordinary reader would ever deduce its key concepts relating to salvation (how one comes to it and WHO can come to it), that only theologians and the theologically sophisticated only first determined, and then only after 1,500 years of Church history (supposedly) not grasping/recognizing it, and of which (per its teachings) the vast majority of spirit-filled Christians around the world are greatly repulsed and disturbed by - then one should be highly disturbed and suspicious as to its supposed truthfulness. Our unfathomable God is not going to be contained in a man-made theological construct, and it is foolish to think that He can be. And when a theology asserts that God's actions, of which if done on a small parallel scale by a MAN would be universally denounced (by Christians and unbelievers alike) as being hideously and incomprehensively evil, and yet is somehow is to be considered "good" and "righteous" simply because they were supposedly done by God, Who can do whatever He wants, then you begin to realize why God has said of human reason: "Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?" (1 Corinthians 1:20)
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