Several questions concerning the fall and evil

[MAGSolo]

You believe most likely because you were raised to believe and thats what it mostly boils down to. You are a product of your environment and nothing more. You dont believe because its particularly self evident to you, you believe for the exact same reason that Muslims believe in Allah and Islam. You believe because thats the culture you were brought up in.

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.

I have only became a believer in the last few years, through many years of study and research prior to that.

Before I was a militant atheist.
EDIT and at times agnostic

You know nothing of me, keep your presumptions to yourself and you wont wind up with egg on your face.


Dan

Why were you a militant atheist?

[B. W.]

Lastly, why did God not simply forgive Adam and Eve for their transgression and tell them not to do it again.

Because God doesn't change. He said what he said and they got what was coming. God did offer them mercy and a Savior was promised, and came.

FL

God made the first animal sacrifice ( Genesis 3:21 ) to describe the only legal manner ( as God is Just ) in which sin can be overcome. Innocent blood...and not just any blood ( as only God is Righteous ), but God's own blood ( Christ ) as promised to Adam. The animal was just a shadow of God coming and laying His own life down ( God so loves... ).
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Why was innocent blood the only way sin could be overcome? Why could God not just say I forgive you and let it be at that?

Forgiveness

Answer He did…

John 1:1-14, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it...14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. NASB

Problem, people don’t listen or accept it…

That’s called rebellion, a hard heart, always warping and twisting things to avoid accepting God’s offer…

To forgive takes two – one to offer and the other to accept.

There is such a thing as partial forgiveness when one party forgives and the other does not accept. Partial forgiveness is not absolutely just or just because one party still has a chip on their proverbial shoulder.

Absolute forgiveness involves both parties involved: One to offer and the other to accept. God is absolute so it stands to reason, totally absolute, just, and righteous forgiveness would be his norm. If the offender refuses the offer – what then?

What would it take to wake a person up to accept or reject the offer?

The offer was made but Adam and Eve rejected it and so do men and women do so even today.

(Note: Rev 13:8, Eph 1:4-5, Titus 1:2, 1 Pet 1:19,20c)

Why don't you accept and what is keeping from accepting?
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[MAGSolo]

Why should I accept the Bible as the inspired word of God? To me it is nothing but a book written by men so why should I accept it as inspired by God and being a legitimate holy book? How do you know the Koran is not actually the Holy book inspired by God?

[B. W.]

Why should I accept the Bible as the inspired word of God? To me it is nothing but a book written by men so why should I accept it as inspired by God and being a legitimate holy book? How do you know the Koran is not actually the Holy book inspired by God?

Who are you addressing this too?

Why such a chip on your shoulder?
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[MAGSolo]

It was addressed to you. You were using bible verses so Im just asking why I should see the bible as anything more than a book written by men thousands of years ago. I dont see that as having a chip on my shoulder. I dont believe the bible was inspired by God so in order for anything in it to hold any special meaning to me, I would need a convincing argument for it indeed being inspired by God. Is that an unreasonable expectation? Why do you think it is inspired by God as opposed to another book that claims the same thing like the Koran?

[Danieltwotwenty]

You believe most likely because you were raised to believe and thats what it mostly boils down to. You are a product of your environment and nothing more. You dont believe because its particularly self evident to you, you believe for the exact same reason that Muslims believe in Allah and Islam. You believe because thats the culture you were brought up in.

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.

I have only became a believer in the last few years, through many years of study and research prior to that.

Before I was a militant atheist.
EDIT and at times agnostic

You know nothing of me, keep your presumptions to yourself and you wont wind up with egg on your face.


Dan

Why were you a militant atheist?

Many reasons, blind hatred was one and wilful ignorance was the other.

I hated the idea of God because I preferred the way I was living my life and I didn't want to think of my actions as wrong, I saw Christians as brainwashed fools so I tended to ignore any information which gave weight to their position and only concentrated on what were basically lies.

One day I just grew up and stopped being so hateful and started to view the evidence with an open mind and became agnostic for a long time as I studied further.

I guess becoming a father played a big part and quitting drugs and other vices gave me more clarity of thought.

Also with age you tend to let go of pride more because you become more comfortable with who you are.

Dan

[B. W.]

Why should I accept the Bible as the inspired word of God? To me it is nothing but a book written by men so why should I accept it as inspired by God and being a legitimate holy book? How do you know the Koran is not actually the Holy book inspired by God?

It was addressed to you. You were using bible verses so Im just asking why I should see the bible as anything more than a book written by men thousands of years ago. I dont see that as having a chip on my shoulder. I dont believe the bible was inspired by God so in order for anything in it to hold any special meaning to me, I would need a convincing argument for it indeed being inspired by God. Is that an unreasonable expectation? Why do you think it is inspired by God as opposed to another book that claims the same thing like the Koran?

Answer:

In a nutshell, all the world’s religions, with the exception of only one, present the case that it is by human self effort one can save self. Koran is no exception.

The self efforts of Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, involve in varying degrees making one miserable enough to be acceptable, or deal making to achieve benefits, or earn pity of a higher power thru self loathing or even avoid consequences for one’s actions by warping/twisting things justify one is superior to God by being able to manipulate him.

Christianity offers the opposite, which is, God’s offer of forgiveness by grace to accept or reject freely. He proved and demonstrated his sincerity thru the events of the Cross and Resurrection.

None of the other ways out there do that, or make that case. Therefore the uniqueness of the message is a giveaway…

You ask why did not God just forgive – he did – question – will you accept his offer?
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[MAGSolo]

You believe most likely because you were raised to believe and thats what it mostly boils down to. You are a product of your environment and nothing more. You dont believe because its particularly self evident to you, you believe for the exact same reason that Muslims believe in Allah and Islam. You believe because thats the culture you were brought up in.

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.

I have only became a believer in the last few years, through many years of study and research prior to that.

Before I was a militant atheist.
EDIT and at times agnostic

You know nothing of me, keep your presumptions to yourself and you wont wind up with egg on your face.


Dan

Why were you a militant atheist?

Many reasons, blind hatred was one and wilful ignorance was the other.

I hated the idea of God because I preferred the way I was living my life and I didn't want to think of my actions as wrong, I saw Christians as brainwashed fools so I tended to ignore any information which gave weight to their position and only concentrated on what were basically lies.

One day I just grew up and stopped being so hateful and started to view the evidence with an open mind and became agnostic for a long time as I studied further.

I guess becoming a father played a big part and quitting drugs and other vices gave me more clarity of thought.

Dan

Did you do any in depth research/study of any other religions like Islam or Buddhism? If so, what convinced you that those religions werent the ones to follow?

[B. W.]

(Dan),,,Did you do any in depth research/study of any other religions like Islam or Buddhism? If so, what convinced you that those religions werent the ones to follow?

I am sure he did so as did myself - the uniqueness of the message is a giveaway…

The others say the same things. Only one does not.
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[Danieltwotwenty]

You believe most likely because you were raised to believe and thats what it mostly boils down to. You are a product of your environment and nothing more. You dont believe because its particularly self evident to you, you believe for the exact same reason that Muslims believe in Allah and Islam. You believe because thats the culture you were brought up in.

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.

I have only became a believer in the last few years, through many years of study and research prior to that.

Before I was a militant atheist.
EDIT and at times agnostic

You know nothing of me, keep your presumptions to yourself and you wont wind up with egg on your face.


Dan

Why were you a militant atheist?

Many reasons, blind hatred was one and wilful ignorance was the other.

I hated the idea of God because I preferred the way I was living my life and I didn't want to think of my actions as wrong, I saw Christians as brainwashed fools so I tended to ignore any information which gave weight to their position and only concentrated on what were basically lies.

One day I just grew up and stopped being so hateful and started to view the evidence with an open mind and became agnostic for a long time as I studied further.

I guess becoming a father played a big part and quitting drugs and other vices gave me more clarity of thought.

Dan

Did you do any in depth research/study of any other religions like Islam or Buddhism? If so, what convinced you that those religions werent the ones to follow?

Yes, mainly Islam and Buddism and a little taoism/various others, depends what you mean by in depth, yes I looked into them but I am far from an expert.

Dan

[MAGSolo]

Why should I accept the Bible as the inspired word of God? To me it is nothing but a book written by men so why should I accept it as inspired by God and being a legitimate holy book? How do you know the Koran is not actually the Holy book inspired by God?

It was addressed to you. You were using bible verses so Im just asking why I should see the bible as anything more than a book written by men thousands of years ago. I dont see that as having a chip on my shoulder. I dont believe the bible was inspired by God so in order for anything in it to hold any special meaning to me, I would need a convincing argument for it indeed being inspired by God. Is that an unreasonable expectation? Why do you think it is inspired by God as opposed to another book that claims the same thing like the Koran?

Answer:

In a nutshell, all the world’s religions, with the exception of only one, present the case that it is by human self effort one can save self. Koran is no exception.

The self efforts of Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, involve in varying degrees making one miserable enough to be acceptable, or deal making to achieve benefits, or earn pity of a higher power thru self loathing or even avoid consequences for one’s actions by warping/twisting things justify one is superior to God by being able to manipulate him.

Christianity offers the opposite, which is, God’s offer of forgiveness by grace to accept or reject freely. He proved and demonstrated his sincerity thru the events of the Cross and Resurrection.

None of the other ways out there do that, or make that case. Therefore the uniqueness of the message is a giveaway…

You ask why did not God just forgive – he did – question – will you accept his offer?
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I dont see how that answers my question at all. That doesnt explain why I should believe the Bible was inspired by God. Do you seriously think thats a compelling argument for why someone should believe the bible was inspired by God? You say he proved and demonstrated it as if you were there but all you did was read it in the bible and accept it as fact. Someone who has never read the bible or heard a christian sermon would have no idea about these things. So say I am such a person who has never even heard of the bible and you tell me all the things you are saying now. I ask how you know these things and you say that it is written in this book here (the bible). My response is what is so special about that book that I should accept what is written in it as fact. You tell me it was inspired by God and I ask how do you know it was inspired by God? What is your answer?

[MAGSolo]

(Dan),,,Did you do any in depth research/study of any other religions like Islam or Buddhism? If so, what convinced you that those religions werent the ones to follow?

I am sure he did so as did myself - the uniqueness of the message is a giveaway…

The others say the same things. Only one does not.
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I would say Buddhism is far more unique than Christianity as there is no sacred or holy entity to be worshiped in Buddhism. There is no God and it doesnt even really espouse the supernatural at all. For you to claim that Buddhism says the same thing as Islam is flat out false as the teachings are very different.

[Danieltwotwenty]

(Dan),,,Did you do any in depth research/study of any other religions like Islam or Buddhism? If so, what convinced you that those religions werent the ones to follow?

I am sure he did so as did myself - the uniqueness of the message is a giveaway…

The others say the same things. Only one does not.
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I would say Buddhism is far more unique than Christianity as there is no sacred or holy entity to be worshiped in Buddhism. There is no God and it doesnt even really espouse the supernatural at all. For you to claim that Buddhism says the same thing as Islam is flat out false as the teachings are very different.

Buddhism may not believe in a deity as such but it is still works based to attain enlightenment and different states of existence which puts it in the same category as Islam as a works based religion.


Dan

[MAGSolo]

Well it probably should be how you actually conduct your life that matters and not arbitrarily believing in an invisible being that never speaks, never shows himself, and gives 50/50 responses to prayers that you could just as easily get by praying to a frog or a cat. Which religion makes more sense, the one where what you do in life matters or the one where all that matters is believing in an invisible guy in the sky?

[neo-x]

I simply dont find the arguments presented very compelling.

Mag, me dear, This is precisely what I have been trying to show you all along that your argument is flawed to begin with. You are taking liberties to ascertain God (even for the sake of the argument) to fit a certain criteria you deem best, else you do not think he exists.

I dont believe God is responsible for good or evil. I think he just doesnt exist. Let me explain what I mean. If a bear or a lion or a shark happens to kill a human being, this is a bad thing, an example of human suffering, but God did not make the bear, lion, or shark kill the human, its just something those animals do. Likewise if a human happens to be close to a bear, lion, or shark and it doesnt attack the human it is not because of God either, its just that the lion, bear, or shark wasnt in a killing mood at that particular time. We would see it as good that the animal didnt kill the human, but its not goodness that comes from God and its not badness or evil that comes from God. Likewise when humans do good things or bad things, God has nothing to do with it. Humans have the capacity to do good or to not do good, just like bears, lions, and sharks have the capacity to kill humans or not kill humans. A human killing a human is no more from God than a bear killing a human and a human doing good towards another human is no more from God than a bear not killing a human.

It could be any number of factors. Environment one was raised in, mental health, overall health, education, any number of factors could come into to play in determining why some people are good and some are not.

So good or bad are simply results of factors and actions and are not grounded realities. You see, this is the exact reason why I do not find subjective morals very impressing. Because in the end they boil down to your own preferences. And at the end of the day what you think about animals and humans and how their actions are equal to be carried out in a comparison as to draw results, is just your opinion, nothing more.

I personally respect all life on this Earth. I try not to even kill bugs in my house if I can seriously avoid it. To me it doesnt matter what Hitler or any other person who does bad things might think about the matter. Daily I read about people who take the lives of others over the most trivial of things. Human lives taken over 40 and 50 dollars. I often wonder how human life can have so little value to some people. So all I can say is that goodness matters to me and my opinion is what matters to me.

And that exactly is the problem. Everyone with subjectivity on their mind is bound to say "I do not care what others think of the matter". As I told you, Hitler or Stalin or anyone can say the same and believe what they think is right, doesn't really make an iota of difference, whether that be you, me or Hitler, our opinions
can only cater to our own make-beliefs.

Who says that God is the objective standard of goodness. By my standard anyone who has the power to prevent suffering and evil and doesnt is not good.

Without God there is no objectivity, there can be goodness in the compassionate sense of the word but no objectivity. Else each to his own, your opinion or mine with objectivity are just our opinions, whose to say which one is the better, other than decided by preference or vote. Even your statement above is subjective to begin with because it is "your take" on the matter, hence subjective.

There are examples in the bible where God called upon the Israelites to slay entire nations down to the children. There are other times when he said that women left alive to be used as they pleased. Maybe when you get your notions of what is good and bad from a book written by goat herders 3000 years ago, you dont see these things as a big deal. But what specifically makes God so good?

You are right, not the best examples, but these are examples of warfare. I do not think there is a single war which can actually portray a good picture. But is there anything as a just war, perhaps a war against Hitler was a just war. may be may be not, it gets opinionated. There are number of reasons why God commanded such a brutal act. I do not think you have done any studies in detail on the subject though, I would encourage you to do so, that is if youreally wanted to get an understanding. I mean what good is criticizing a position you do not fully understand works.

In my honest and sincere opinion, you have a very superficial understanding of God, classical theism and apologetic. Perhaps you would like to study to know more. Do you presume that I have not considered the topic you have brought up? about how evil exists and so does God, as a matter of fact there is plethora of studies on the subject so feel free to explore.

So God was not just when he wiped out all but a literal handful of people during the flood?

There are more plausible indicators of a local flood than a global one. God did not wipe out all humanity, just a specific region and there are quite a number of reasons why that happened, that however is not for this thread. Plus, I thought I made it clear, you can't use the Bible if you want me to not use it as proof too.

Me personally, I would kill every person who sought to do harm to another human being on the spot.

That is precisely what human nature is, angered, frustrated at times vengeful, at times justified vengeful on a larger scale of things. You should be glad that I am not using your approach, because If I would, your argument would turn 180 dg on you. What if I told you that the nations God commanded to kill were involved in human sacrifices, child sacrifices, throwing and making their children walk on fire, participating in savage brutal warfare, and this was the reason God commanded Israel to wipe them all out, by your reasoning of "Me personally, I would kill every person who sought to do harm to another human being on the spot" I think the Isrealites are justified and they should be justified, as they did exactly the same as in your opinion, they did nothing more than what you hold you would have done.

It seems very much like a game to me. God creates Adam and Eve, creates a tree with fruit on it and tells adam and eve not to eat from it knowing they will do it anyway and then punishes them severly when they do the thing he already knew they would do from the start

Only because you do not know God. You say you were Christian, do you mean you knew Christ? or was it just a religious life style, going to church, giving alms, etc etc.?

What is the fallen state? What does that mean and why does God want to rescue mankind from it?

You can easily Google it up.

Some people dont deserve that benefit of the doubt. Some people are simply evil and dont deserve to live imo. At the point where you just start hurting and killing people intentionally, I dont personally believe you are worthy of redemption or forgiveness and you deserve to simply die

You are entitled to your opinion. Nothing more I want to say on that. I just wanted to show you the problems in your argument. I think I have done a satisfactory job to cover the basics of those problems if nothing else.

Again you will have to explain what "fallen humanity is" and I do believe there are some things people should be forgiven for and given a second chance but I also think there is a line people cross where they no longer deserve a chance. For instance I dont think a person who robs or steals is beyond redemption, but when you get to the point where you start physically hurting people and taking lives, then to me you do not deserve a chance.

As I said, God is not the same as man and therefore would not act the same as man either. We may think he should, that doesn't in itself plentiful reason that he should. You see here your criteria is physical hurt, to condemn people to death. what about someone who lies continuously and hurts people emotionally, or someone who blackmails someone, does he deserve a chance, what about some one who is extreme, militantly extreme, has a higher inclination to violence but is till not hurting people, is that still cause enough to kill him? It is an endless debate of do's and dont's and but's and maybe's, resting upon nothing than your personal whim. No sane person will accept it. Try it out.

So during the flood do you think that Noah and his family were literally the only good people on the entire planet? On all of Earth there were only about 7 good people? Do you really believe that? At any rate I do agree that God shouldnt wipe everyone out but why cant he simply destroy the truly evil people.?

Because all evil is evil. there is greater and smaller evil in the eyes of man, but to God all mankind is somehow flawed and therefore evil, in the most broadest sense of word with the connotation of theism. If you lie and are prone to rage, you are flawed. It is not merely who did murder, but who is perfect and since no one is perfect, everyone is lacking one thing or the other. The guy who murders simply lack more than you - who thinks about killing evil people but do not act out on it. So to God all humanity is fallen one way or the other. No one is perfect, therefore humanity deserves a chance. It is simply illogical for us to be angry on something we have no right upon. If God grants mercy to you, why cant he do it to others. They are his creation too. We can not say "suppose there is a God" and then devoid him of characteristics which make him God. Its like I say "imagine I have a car" and then go on to claim that it can run without an engine.

God has done it before so its clearly not unprecedented. According to the bible there was a time when humans were so terrible that God figured it was best to wipe them out and start over

Please see my comments above on this, God did not wipe all humans, period.

No I wouldnt agree with that at all. Fruit was made to be eaten. If we could not eat plants or animals then we could not sustain ourselves. Please dont waste my time with completely absurd arguments just for the sake of argument or to make some ridiculous point.

This is called moving goal posts. Where did you get that fruit was made to be eaten? Made by whom? decided to be eaten by whom? And don't drag in the Biblical verses to back it up. On the contrary, I would suggest you do not waste other's time at the expense of your whims. And back to the point it is absurd precisely because it is the logical conclusion to which your argument can be taken. It is absurd and flawed. Your argument until now is only one thing "I think this, I think that, I don't like this, I don't like that".

To me all life is not precious. The lives of evil people are not precious. Are you going to argue that the lives of evil people are precious to God while children die of starvation? Evil people should be spared because their lives are precious to God but he does not care enough to stop them from taking the lives of other?

All life would definitely disagree with you if they had a voice. The bottom line is you are no one to decide whose life is precious and whose is not. All life is precious, its just that some have fallen too much, if the most beautiful vase in the world, cracked and broke down in pieces, does that mean there was no inherent value to it ever. No, you can argue that if broken it is nothing more than trash and should be disposed, as I think you will probably do, but to God who made that beautiful thing, who is the real owner, is still trying to fix it.

I thank God that HE is indeed not like a human being. If he had gone by your standards (which are self contradictory on various levels) there would be no one left, including you. Speaking in the position of a former atheist, I would like to tell you that you need to study before you dive into subjects you have a very thin understanding of. This is only meant as a helpful pointer, so do not take it as an insult, because it is not intended to be one.

God's grace is so abounding that at times I think our minds can not fully comprehend the magnitude of it. I think to some it is so baffling that they choose to reject it rather than rationalize it.

If you are going to stick to your opinion and ask to debate on that then I don't think I should oblige because at the end, I do not see any validity to your objections; I have tried to point out the problems as I see them, so far I see a lack of acknowledgement on your part to deal with those issues. Before you cry "foul" rest assured that my conclusion is not based on my belief but rather that you have presented a poor case for your argument to stand to any healthy criticism. Not to mention I think there are serious misunderstandings on your part about theism in general and I would encourage you to explore further.

I also believe that you may have had imagined or have gone through some experience which was painful, I might be wrong on this, of course but the reason I say this is because, at a very depressed time in my life, I started to have suicidal feelings, hatred and much more but to the point. I thought that if God took away the girl I loved (she was very sick at that point), I would be forever angry, I would be bitter, I would never ever forgive God for taking away the only person I love more than my self and I will stop believing that he is good, I even gave myself to inclination of murder if it came to that to vent out my anger. I'm one of those who have a "rich imagination" if I could put it that way, and in my mind I felt betrayed by God, by reason; helpless and at a utter loss to regain what I have lost (only in my thoughts but it seemed the only viable option at the time as if what I imagined, actually happened then there was no more response in me but hatred for God.), it poisoned my reasoning. Took me some time to recover from that, took a lot of love too. Just saying, perhaps you have something entirely different, perhaps there is more to you than the average protester, a bit extremism if I may point it out. I can not say for sure may be I am over reading your words, but somethings struck me similar so I thought to bring this up.

As a matter of fact If I would to present your case, suffering is the last option I would take to disapprove God, this debate however is for another day.