Evidence for God from Science

Gman wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

Gman wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote: Have you read the reply of Muslims to this argument?
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/195/
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/ ... ongod.html

Nonsense.. Of course they are going to want you to believe that their god is the G-d of the Bible. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. Their god is not the G-d the Bible. Buy a koran and read it. They don't even know what it is they worship.

Similar arguments have been put forth VS Christianity.

Since you won't address the comparisons and think that Allah and the G-d of the Bible are the same, maybe you could answer some of these questions:

1. Where in the koran is it ever commanded to love your neighbor as yourself? The Bible commands us to love our neighbor as ourself Mark 12:29-31, Leviticus 19:18.
2. Where in the koran is a description of their god? According to the Bible, G-d is love 1 John 4:8.
3. Why is it told in the koran to beat your wife if she get's out of line? Sura 4:34 The Bible tells us to love your wife sacrificially Ephesians 5:25-27.
4. Why is it told in the koran not to take Christians or Jews as friends if they worship the same god? Sura 5:51. The Bible commands us to love all people 1 Peter 4:8
5. Why in the koran is judgment based on a person's sincere repentance Sura 66:8-9 and righteous deeds? Sura 5:9; 24:26; 45:21-22; 64:7. The Bible states that salvation is a free gift of God to the person who trusts in Christ and His sacrifice on the cross. It is not of any works. Eph. 2:8-9.

More later...

I said that MUSLIMS believe that Allah and Yahweh are the same God and that they worship the God of Abraham.
I did NOT say that I believe that Allah and Our Father are the same God.
Lets not forget that Allah has more in common with the Hebrew God as revealed to them BEFORE Christ.

RickD wrote:

Jac3510 wrote:I don't concede your premise. It's the premise you've been arguing that I've been disagreeing with throughout this entire thread. Just because one does not believe that Jesus is the Son of God, it does not follow that they do not believe in the same God. It is perfectly meaningful to say, "The God of Abraham has no incarnated Son." It's a wrong statement, but the only reason it can be wrong is the fact that it is meaningful. Meaningless statements are neither wrong nor right, precisely because you cannot be wrong or right unless you mean something to be wrong or right.

This just goes back to the first point I made that, for the most part, was ignored. Just because people disagree on the some of the attributes or features or works of God, it does not follow that they therefore believe in a different God. It just means that they don't believe certain statements about God are true, or it means that they believe that certain statements about God are false. The theology of you all arguing that Muslims and Jews have a different God makes it impossible to say incorrect things about Yahweh, because such incorrect statements turn out to be about someone other than Yahweh!

So regarding the Gospel, FG theology does not say that believing in God saves. It says believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God saves (John 20:31).

Jac, I've read from you, that some of us are arguing that Muslims and Jews have a different God than Christians. That is not my argument. There is one God. Everybody has the same God. I'm talking about believing in the same God. There's a difference that you may not be seeing. The God I believe in, is a trinitarian God. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all God. The God that Muslims believe in, is Unitarian. Jesus is not God to them. Christians believe Jesus is God. Muslims don't believe Jesus is God. Muslims and Christians believe in a different Jesus, therefore Muslims and Christians believe in a different God. I think you're making my argument out to be something it's not. It's pretty simple. If one believes in a different Jesus, than the biblical Jesus, then one believes in a different God. I'm not talking about disagreeing with attributes or features of God. Jesus is not an attribute or feature of God. He is God. If one doesn't believe in Jesus, one doesn't believe in the one true God, but some other god.

And, just because Muslims believe they believe in the one true God, that doesn't mean they do. You really need to think about the possibility that Allah, is a deception from the prince of the this world, to deceive Muslims into believing in a false god.

And that was what I was trying to say.
Hebrews, Christians and Muslims have the same God - there is only ONE God and they all claim it to be the God of Abraham.
HOW they view that God and HOW the WORSHIP that God and HOW and WHAT they BELIEVE that God to be, that is a different story of course.

Paul, do you think one has to believe in the Jesus of the bible, who is God incarnate, to be saved? Or is believing in a Christ who was merely a man, and a prophet, sufficient for salvation?

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Ivellious wrote:So murdering people in the name of Christ is better than beating your wife?
I'm saying they are essentially the same in your logic. You say that Muslims beat their wife because they think their religion says so, and I say that Christians have fought holy wars because they thought their religion said so. How is that all that different?

His point is, nowhere in the Bible does it condone any of the crusades, where as the Koran condones the miss treatment of women.

And he is right!

RickD wrote:Jac, I've read from you, that some of us are arguing that Muslims and Jews have a different God than Christians. That is not my argument. There is one God. Everybody has the same God. I'm talking about believing in the same God. There's a difference that you may not be seeing. The God I believe in, is a trinitarian God. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all God. The God that Muslims believe in, is Unitarian. Jesus is not God to them. Christians believe Jesus is God. Muslims don't believe Jesus is God. Muslims and Christians believe in a different Jesus, therefore Muslims and Christians believe in a different God. I think you're making my argument out to be something it's not. It's pretty simple. If one believes in a different Jesus, than the biblical Jesus, then one believes in a different God. I'm not talking about disagreeing with attributes or features of God. Jesus is not an attribute or feature of God. He is God. If one doesn't believe in Jesus, one doesn't believe in the one true God, but some other god.

And, just because Muslims believe they believe in the one true God, that doesn't mean they do. You really need to think about the possibility that Allah, is a deception from the prince of the this world, to deceive Muslims into believing in a false god.

I might even be more nuanced then Paul here, as I've argued that everyone believes in the same God. They just believe different things to be true about that same God (although maybe that's his position, too). It's just silly to suggest that if someone believes something untrue about someone else, then the don't really believe that person exists. To use the example I quoted in my first reply, if I believe that Einstein created the atomic bomb, I am mistaken. That was Oppenheimer. It does not, however, follow that I believe in "a different Einstein" than you do (assuming you believe that Oppenheimer, and not he, created the bomb). Again, what all of you who are arguing against this are failing to see is that you are making it impossible to speak wrongly about God, which the Bible itself refutes (Job 42:7).

That you believe God is Trinitarian and Muslims and Christians do not does not mean you believe in different gods. It means that one of you think one thing about God and another thinks another thing about God. It means that you are correct and they are incorrect. But something you really need to see is that, on your line of thinking, when Muslims or Jews say "God is not a Trinity" you CANNOT say, "You are mistaken!" You would have to say, "You are right!" understanding that "God" for them means something other than it means for you. And in that case, why stop at the Trinity? If you are going to be consistent, Rick, then you need to say that every single person on this board believes in a "different God" insofar as NONE of us have exactly the same theology. Gman, for instance, thinks we can "give our salvation back." I strongly disagree with that. So we have different gods? That's absurd. But both are theological statements as to the very nature of God no less than the Trinity is.

edit:

BTW, for those of you who argue that people who reject the Trinity have a different God, what do you do about Origen or Eusebius or a myriad of other church fathers I could name? Do you realize that all of them rejected the Trinity as we have come to accept it? What do you do about Sebellius, who rejected the Trinity entirely? Granted they were heretics, but do you really think they had a different God? To make the Trinity the defining factor in deciding who has the same God is dangerous if you study the philosophical history of the doctrine itself. In fact, if you really want to talk about it, then you'd have to say that the Greek Orthodox Church has a different God, because they reject the filoque. So really? The Greek Orthodox Church believes in a different God than Protestants do?

It's all well and fine and good and easy to argue that Muslims have a different God. After all, they're Muslims!. But I wonder how many of you are willing to be consistent with your logic.

RickD wrote:Paul, do you think one has to believe in the Jesus of the bible, who is God incarnate, to be saved? Or is believing in a Christ who was merely a man, and a prophet, sufficient for salvation?

AH, now that IS the question isn't it?
I think WHY we believe is very important.
Do I believe in the Trinity doctrine because I understand and agree with it or because I can't be bothered to and just accept it?
Do I not believe in the Trinity doctrine because I just don't get it or have been brought up to believe it to be wrong and as such, will I be condemend by it?
Knowing as you know that I have family members in the JW religion you know I have pondered this question quite a bit.
They believe Christ to be the incarnate form of the Archangel Michael.
That Jesus is a god not THE God.
But to your question:
I believe that WHY we believe in Jesus and why we put our faith in Him is what will save us.
I have tried almost every method to explain the Trinity doctrine to my JW family and I have failed and I just hope that one day the HS will open their eyes.
I have to have HOPE in their FAITH in Christ and God ( and I know they have faith in God ( Jehovah) first and Christ second, but it is faith).

BTW, for those of you who argue that people who reject the Trinity have a different God, what do you do about Origen or Eusebius or a myriad of other church fathers I could name? Do you realize that all of them rejected the Trinity as we have come to accept it? What do you do about Sebellius, who rejected the Trinity entirely? Granted they were heretics, but do you really think they had a different God? To make the Trinity the defining factor in deciding who has the same God is dangerous if you study the philosophical history of the doctrine itself. In fact, if you really want to talk about it, then you'd have to say that the Greek Orthodox Church has a different God, because they reject the filoque. So really? The Greek Orthodox Church believes in a different God than Protestants do?

It's all well and fine and good and easy to argue that Muslims have a different God. After all, they're Muslims!. But I wonder how many of you are willing to be consistent with your logic.

Jac, I disagree with your premise that because there is one true God, and therefore, everyone has the same God, that it means everyone believes in the same God. Let's just stick to Muslims, because of the OP. If Allah is a deception from the pit of hell, then do you still think Allah is the same as the God of the bible?

PaulS wrote:
Knowing as you know that I have family members in the JW religion you know I have pondered this question quite a bit.
They believe Christ to be the incarnate form of the Archangel Michael.
That Jesus is a god not THE God.
But to your question:
I believe that WHY we believe in Jesus and why we put our faith in Him is what will save us.
I have tried almost every method to explain the Trinity doctrine to my JW family and I have failed and I just hope that one day the HS will open their eyes.
I have to have HOPE in their FAITH in Christ and God ( and I know they have faith in God ( Jehovah) first and Christ second, but it is faith).

Now I understand why you are arguing from your pov. I can't begin to understand the frustration you're going through with your family. I hope you don't mind if I pray for them as well.

I find it rather convenient that you want to "just stick Muslims." If you are going to assert that Muslims have a different God, then it seems to me that you are logically obligated to asserting that Origen and Sabellius had a different God.

To answer your question, the incorrect koranic teachings are deceptions from the pit of Hell. The beliefs they engender about God are a deception from the pit of Hell. Allah--which is just a word for "God"--is not a deception from the pit of Hell. You may as well say that Elohim is not the God of the Bible, since Jews don't see Elohim as a Trinity.

I find it rather convenient that you want to "just stick Muslims." If you are going to assert that Muslims have a different God, then it seems to me that you are logically obligated to asserting that Origen and Sabellius had a different God.

Again, I'm not asserting that Muslims have a different God. Second, I'm not obligated to asserting that Origen et al have a different God. I told you I agree we all have the same God.

To answer your question, the incorrect koranic teachings are deceptions from the pit of Hell. The beliefs they engender about God are a deception from the pit of Hell. Allah--which is just a word for "God"--is not a deception from the pit of Hell.

I agree

RickD wrote:

PaulS wrote:
Knowing as you know that I have family members in the JW religion you know I have pondered this question quite a bit.
They believe Christ to be the incarnate form of the Archangel Michael.
That Jesus is a god not THE God.
But to your question:
I believe that WHY we believe in Jesus and why we put our faith in Him is what will save us.
I have tried almost every method to explain the Trinity doctrine to my JW family and I have failed and I just hope that one day the HS will open their eyes.
I have to have HOPE in their FAITH in Christ and God ( and I know they have faith in God ( Jehovah) first and Christ second, but it is faith).

Now I understand why you are arguing from your pov. I can't begin to understand the frustration you're going through with your family. I hope you don't mind if I pray for them as well.

Thank you and I appreciate you prayers my friend

Let's get back to the OP, and the original question, which is the title of this thread:Is the Christian God the same as the Islamic god? As that question is written, the answer is no.

If the question was written like this: Do Christians and Muslims have the same God?

Then I would have to answer yes.

Are you happy with that, Jac?

RickD wrote:

BTW, for those of you who argue that people who reject the Trinity have a different God, what do you do about Origen or Eusebius or a myriad of other church fathers I could name? Do you realize that all of them rejected the Trinity as we have come to accept it? What do you do about Sebellius, who rejected the Trinity entirely? Granted they were heretics, but do you really think they had a different God? To make the Trinity the defining factor in deciding who has the same God is dangerous if you study the philosophical history of the doctrine itself. In fact, if you really want to talk about it, then you'd have to say that the Greek Orthodox Church has a different God, because they reject the filoque. So really? The Greek Orthodox Church believes in a different God than Protestants do?

It's all well and fine and good and easy to argue that Muslims have a different God. After all, they're Muslims!. But I wonder how many of you are willing to be consistent with your logic.

Jac, I disagree with your premise that because there is one true God, and therefore, everyone has the same God, that it means everyone believes in the same God. Let's just stick to Muslims, because of the OP. If Allah is a deception from the pit of hell, then do you still think Allah is the same as the God of the bible?

Is it Allah that is the deception or is it the writings of the "prophet" Mohammed?

RickD wrote:Let's get back to the OP, and the original question, which is the title of this thread:Is the Christian God the same as the Islamic god? As that question is written, the answer is no.

If the question was written like this: Do Christians and Muslims have the same God?

Then I would have to answer yes.

Are you happy with that, Jac?

Maybe more correct would be "Do Christians and Muslims worship the same God"?
And in that the answer is no.
But you are right than the Christian God is NOT the same as the Islamic God and I think we did get away from that, sorry.

Of course under that context we have to agree that the Christian God and the Jewish God are also not the same.

Is it Allah that is the deception or is it the writings of the "prophet" Mohammed?

Great question, Paul!!!

Maybe more correct would be "Do Christians and Muslims worship the same God"?
And in that the answer is no.
But you are right than the Christian God is NOT the same as the Islamic God and I think we did get away from that, sorry.

So now you're agreeing with me? I'm confused.

Of course under that context we have to agree that the Christian God and the Jewish God are also not the same.

Under that context, I believe you are correct, and that was my point.