OK, K, I want to start by highlighting this:
You wrote:The punishment for ALL wrong against God was paid in full such that God's righteous requirements were met in Christ.
Keep that in mind, because it's going to be important.
You wrote:We come to Hitler versus the many millions of deaths and tortures that he was ultimately responsible for. The deaths of such no doubt cry out for justice -- for the wrongs committed against them. If Hitler sincerely came to Christ, then justice is replaced with forgiveness. Yet, it is only in Christ. Hitler made his own decisions that lead him away from God.
Of course they cry out for justice. And, K,
that justice was completely fulfilled in Christ's work on the Cross. It wouldn't matter if Hitler did or did not come to Him for forgiveness. God's wrath against his sin has already been satisfied. You're just back to offering the traditional view of unlimited (not universal) atonement--the idea that the atonement is
sufficient for all be
efficient only for those who believe. Note your own words I started with. ALL wrongs against God have been paid
in full by Christ. You cant say that and turn around and say, "but only if you trust Him for it," because then they have not ALL been paid. The only ones that have been paid on that view is the ones of those who believe. So you either need to be consistent with your original wording it to be consistent with what you later state, something like, "The punishment for ALL wrong against God [committed by those who believe in Christ] was paid in full such that God's righteous requirements were met in Christ."
All I am saying, is that there is nothing wrong with God using Hitler's own freely made decision, and just handing him over to his own wickedness rather than pursuing him. We see evidence of this with Pharaoh with God hardening his heart, such that God's glory would be seen with Israel. We see this in Romans 1 of God handing people over to their own wickedness to do what is not right and suffer the consequences on their actions.
And this goes back to my original question to you that you objected to. Why should the unforgiveness of some keep me out of heaven? Of course God can hand over people to their own sin, but do you think He does so at the behest of some of His children? Think about what you are saying. God WANTS to save me, but because I've done some really bad things, God doesn't want to offend these other people, so He chooses not to. Really? So, AGAIN, other people's unforgiveness is keeping me out of heaven?
K, no offense, but that is absurd. It makes a mockery of the entire notion of grace. God didn't hand Pharaoh over to his own wicked heart to satisfy the Jews' desire for justice. He did it because Pharaoh had made the choice to reject Him already (Exod 5:2), and so God was using Pharaoh's own sin to glorify Himself as a testimony to His children of His faithfulness to them. I have absolutely no doubt that God would have been thrilled (as would the Israelites, by the way) if Pharaoh had just let the Jews go as God commanded. But he didn't, so God--being sovereign--chose to use Pharaoh in a "dishonorable" way to bring Himself honor. There was no thirst for justice here! What there was, as Jlay and I talked about with reference to the imprecatory psalms, was a desire a desire for
vindication.
And again, remember your own words. If Christ truly paid the price for ALL sin, then God's wrath has been satisfied even in the case of Pharaoh. So, in calling for God's wrath in terms of justice here, you are denying your own claim that Christ paid the price for ALL sin.
Question. Why should God ignore the cries of the millions of people he loves by continuing to draw Hitler to Christ (if it was even possible for God to do so), rather than simply allowing Hitler to suffer what's due?
Because He loves Hitler, too.
Moreover, I defy your claim that the millions who died under Hitler are making such cries. If they were believers, then they now have glorified bodies and see God's grace for what it is. If they are crying for anything, it is for God to call Him all the more. You believe that in this life we are called to pray for the lost, right? Our hearts are to break for the lost, right? Are you really suggesting that we are only to pray for and have broken hearts for the relatively good lost? That there is a point at which we shouldn't bother praying for them because they are too bad? That's absurd. Remember again the words of Jesus: he who is forgiven much loves much. He who is forgiven little loves little.
And this takes me back yet again to the question you objected to. Why should the offense of "millions" of God's children keep Hitler out of heaven? Would it matter if it were the offense of one or the offense of a million? Where is the cut off? Can God ignore the offense of one, but at the 237,487th He says, "Okay, that's it! I can ignore the cries of 237,486, but 237,287 . . . that just too much. [soupnazi]NO SALVATION FOR YOU![/soupnazi]" No, if we're going to be consistent, then we need to say that the offense of one means that God should turn us over to our own sin and stop drawing us.
You seem to anticipate that when you say:
The question might be pushed back as Jac did that we all deserve God's wrath. Yes, but there are no cries I'm aware of against my name for my part in the killing hundreds and thousands and millions of people -- babies, young girls and boys who had vivisection performed on them -- being cut alive and sown to one another -- women and men gassed as Hitler pushed genecide upon the Jewish people and a great deal of other atrocities... I have none of this on my record.
So you are right, that is exactly how I push back on the question. And do you really think that there are no such cries against you? Again, I hear Luke 18:11. Have you ever been angry with someone? Jesus says you've murdered them. Have you ever lied against someone? Besmirched their reputation? Let's not forget Jas 4:17. Have you ever had the opportunity to help someone, knew you should, and just didn't for your own reasons? Have you ever had a worldly good that you refused to give to another person in need (1 John 4:17)? Can you really stand here and say that no one can make a claim of your injustice against them?
You may say, "But what I did wasn't as bad as what Hitler did!" But that gets to another fundamental problem I have here. Not only do I believe the theology you are promoting here make light of the Cross (insofar as it denies that God's work was REALLY finished here, that Jesus didn't really pay the price for ALL sin), I think it makes light of sin. You've created "levels" of sin here. Sure, you are a sinner, but you aren't as bad as that guy over there! All sin deserves Hell in the abstract, but some sin REALLY deserves Hell. It's rather convenient, of course, that your sins wouldn't fit in that latter category. It's a means of self-justification. It refuses to recognize that to break ONE law makes you a lawbreaker. One sin makes you a
sinner, and you along with the rest of us, from me to Mother Teresa to Hitler. We're all in this sinking boat together. It's also funny that we always compare ourselves to "really bad" sinners . . . see, we don't REALLY deserve Hell as much as they do . . . but we never bother comparing ourselves to REALLY good sinners. I mean, if Mother Teresa only deserved Hell a little bit, but not enough for God not to call her to Himself, then what about you? Are you anywhere near as holy as that woman? Why should the cut off line for where you are "bad enough" be after you? I imagine that, compared to her, you're a pretty bad dude, dude. I know I am.
No, K the Bible is clear on this. For all sin and fall short of the glory of God. You don't to get to put yourself in some special category because you don't sin as badly as someone else. You, my friend, are a very evil, wicked, horribly bad person. What you DESERVE is nothing less than an eternity in Hell being tormented by the very presence of God. But you know what? As bad as you are, God still loves you. You don't see how bad you are, but you also don't see how much He loves you. And if that is true of you, it is true of EVERYONE.
God can ignore the cries that His own Righteousness demands, because God is big enough. But should God also ignore the cries of the many whom He also loves? God may have forgiven Hitler for his sins, but Hitler is still to face justice unless in Christ. Given this God has two options:
a) Give Hitler over to himself, to have justice dished out via God's wrath -- which would validate, affirm and honor the lives of the millions he wronged whom God also loved.
OR...
b) Continue trying to draw Hitler to Christ, and have justice avoided and replaced with forgiveness -- which would mean the cries of millions would also be ignored.
I'm sorry, but I can't help but feel God would opt for a) in giving Hitler over to himself so that he'd face judgement. Given the gravity of Hitler's wrongs against others who'd accuse him at God's judgment, I can't help but feel that God would in his omniscience listen to such cries ahead of time. And listening to these cries, God gives Hitler over to himself to suffer God's wrath for all he reaped on Earth.
I'm sorry, too, because in opting for (a) you are devaluing Jesus' work on the Cross. Remember your own words I started with. You either believe that or you don't. Those who love God don't cry for the blood of others. They cry for God to save others. Remember, K -- BLESS those who persecute you. When you pray for their blood, you are sinning. You're doing worse than murdering them. You're praying for their eternal death. I don't know that Hitler ever even did such a wicked thing.
And let me emphasize here, because this sounds like it is getting really personal, I'm not attacking you and I don't think poorly of you. Hear my words in their context. We are ALL that bad, K. EVEN ME. Go and listen to the sermon I linked Rick to. I do believe that if you pray for God to turn His back on someone like Hitler, you are committing a very deep sin. Jlay pointed out a GREAT example of that in the book of Jonah. Indeed, that's the ENTIRE point of that book! But as wicked as that sin is, K, I've done things just as bad. I'm not judging you one iota. You and I, we're in the same boat. We're both horrible, wicked sinners who are saved by the grace of a loving God. So what right would I or do I have to judge you? I mean, Hey Kettle! You're black!
And I'll continue to beat the dead horse with reference to your (b) above that God's justice is NOT undermined by calling Hitler to Himself. His justice was completely fulfilled at the Cross.
If this makes me vengeful and spiteful you're entitled to see me that way, but I rather see it as simply desiring fairness and justice out of respect to his victims.
It does make you vengeful and spiteful. I pray that you'll read the words of Matt 7:2 and really ponder over them. God isn't out for fairness. If He were, we would ALL be in Hell. God is out for GRACE--
UNDESERVED favor. K, God justifies the UNGODLY (Rom 4:5). The ungodly, K. Really think about that--the ungodly. Don't make the mistake of thinking that you have to be godly enough to merit being justified, that if you are TOO ungodly, then God won't or can't justify you or draw you to Himself. That's making light of sin, and making much more of yourself than you are.
Jac, you recently also countered with -- if we were born when Hitler was, and experienced the that exact same things in life, etc then we would have made the same decisions. I disagree. This is far from obvious and to believe this makes who we are all fatalistic. If 1000 different people were placed in Hitler's exact same circumstances and experiences, since I believe God also created "free" beings -- I believe you'd like have 1000 different responses and lives. Sure we're influenced by our biology and environment to a large degree, but 100%?? No, I don't believe so and I don't know why any Christian would opt to believe this.
To believe that our choices and actions, even thoughts, are simply determined products of our make-up, environment and experiences is Determinism. And I don't believe in Determinism because such means I am forced to disregard what I intuitively believe is true -- namely that "I" truly do exist, that "I" really do have moral choices in life, that concepts of justice and fairness really are true.
To say that we are merely determined beings, is akin to saying we are simply a bunch of chemicals playing out according to physical laws -- and this suffers all the same philosophical problems that Naturalists have -- which mind you very strongly swing me towards God's existence.
You didn't read me carefully enough. I did not say that I WOULD have made the same decision. Look at what I actually said:
- And while you may think that you are better than people like Hitler, I don't. I cannot honestly say that if I were in his shoes, with his raising, with his background, with his power, that I would not have done the same thing. There but by the grace of God go I! K, I am NO better than the worst of sinners.
I'm pointing to capability. We all have free will, but to say that you would NOT have done that were you in his shoes is to actually deny free will, K. You are saying that you aren't capable of choosing something. Now, you might not be capable of choosing that in this life the way you've lived now (although, who knows?!?), but if you had had his life, then you obviously WOULD have been able to choose it. You are
capable of that type of sin, K. So am I. We all are. It's part of the fallen human condition.
So I don't think the critique you've offered against me here is relevant at all, because while I'm sure it wasn't intentional, it's a straw man.
