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Re: There is no Trinity

Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:57 am
by krystyna
B.W.
The LORD said unto my Lord… therefore, the Father is truly Lord, and the Son truly Lord,
Few quick things to notice.

Please notice how Irenaeus mixed up the LORD (all capital) said to the Lord (first capital), the one whom He made Lord Ac 2:36

Further, why would one God have to make things happen for another God? Aren't they equal in power and authority?

I can see people quoting someone else letters without paying attention to changes within the text supposedly arriving to the “phenomenal” discovery.

Re: There is no Trinity

Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 1:12 am
by B. W.
krystyna wrote:B.W.
The LORD said unto my Lord… therefore, the Father is truly Lord, and the Son truly Lord,
Few quick things to notice.

Please notice how Irenaeus mixed up the LORD (all capital) said to the Lord (first capital), the one whom He made Lord Ac 2:36

Further, why would one God have to make things happen for another God? Aren't they equal in power and authority?

I can see people quoting someone else letters without paying attention to changes within the text supposedly arriving to the “phenomenal” discovery.
262 AD Dionysius

"Neither, then, may we divide into three godheads the wonderful and divine unity . . . Rather, we must believe in God, the Father almighty; and in Christ Jesus, his Son; and in the Holy Spirit; and that the Word is united to the God of the Universe. `For,' he says, 'The Father and I are one,' and `I am in the Father, and the Father in me'" (Letter to Dionysius of Alexandria, 3).
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Re: There is no Trinity

Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 1:21 am
by krystyna
B. W.

{quote] Here is your challenge - prove that the early Church fathers did not expound upon the nature of the Godhead before 300 AD...[/quote]

They tried to figure out how to blend the new religion with the existing beliefs. Thus there were differing ways they saw it fitting. However, none seem to have known the entire Bible well. Just guess work. It might be true that the Bible wasn’t as common as today and not compiled the way it is.
And yes, Jesus himself declared himself God in this you need to actually read the bible as well as the early Church Fathers in context...
I have been studying the Bible for many , many years but never saw Jesus claiming any of God’s attributes. He always attributed glory to God for all the Father did through him. Thus his greatness.
The Old Testament is truly Trinitarian as well too...
It is until one finds out additions like the three heavenly witnesses in 1Jn 5:7, translations of multiple meaning words out of the immediate and overall context like Jn 1:1-14 or Jn 20:28 inferred back into the OT.

I don’t think anybody not trained by Trinitarians would find Trinity God given any of the Jerome’s mistranslations infested Bible for the first time to learn about God.
The Challenge is not for us but to you to wade through the evidence presented and see why the writers stated what they said...
It is very easy for a trained Trinitarian to convince somebody who never read the entire Bible but knows God from what he hears from people. But once those writers are viewed by somebody who knows the Bible beyond the common translations and knows how the supposed followers of Christ murdered millions of those heretics who decided to follow God not them it becomes very clear why Daniel was so troubled in Da 7. I don't suppose you know who the little horn he saw really is.

Re: There is no Trinity

Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 1:43 am
by krystyna
B. W.
262 AD Dionysius

"Neither, then, may we divide into three godheads the wonderful and divine unity…
]

Another story but no Biblical verse/s not only to state this but even remotely suggest.

B.W.

I can see you have a good command of what people said. Do you also know what the pagans and other religions say about God of the Bible? Do you trust them (many do) the same way you trust those who have grown the Trinitarian theology (and many more) in a deep pool of innocent blood?

Why don’t you trust God instead?

Re: There is no Trinity

Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 2:15 am
by neo-x
Bible verses?

The triune nature of Godhead is so visible that to say its not there simply kills all disscussion. The gospels all present christ as the son of God. The gospel accounts are narratives, you need to see past the prooftexting, your error is rooted in misinformed and misguided beliefs.

Re: There is no Trinity

Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 2:44 am
by krystyna
neo-x
Bible verses?
Is there anything wrong with Bible verses?
The gospels all present christ as the son of God.
Anybody questions this?

What it means according to Jesus?

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Was Jesus wrong?

Did John say anything wrong?

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
you need to see past the prooftexting

Do you know what proof texting means? Do you know that the Trinitarians invented the Trinity God and do proof texting to find some proof of it?
your error is rooted in misinformed and misguided beliefs.
All I do is quoting the prophets, Jesus and the NT writers.

How you know they were all in error rooted in misinformed and misguided beliefs?

Re: There is no Trinity

Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:22 am
by neo-x
Prooftexting will not help your case, even if you quote God on the matter.

Re: There is no Trinity

Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:34 am
by krystyna
neo-x
Prooftexting will not help your case…
You still don’t understand the difference between proof texting (proving a theology looking up verses which may “proof” it) and quoting proof texts (no one can manipulate) which explain (no need for guess work or stories what they mean) exactly and clearly a topic or an issue. So when Jesus says that he has a God and his God is my God you can dance around it for as long as you wish but you can-not change the steps. Likewise, when Jesus says that the eternal life is for them who know the Father the only true God and his anointed then you can offer me the eternal life on whatever conditions but I will not trade God’s offer for yours simply because you can-not deliver on this offer.
…even if you quote God on the matter.
Are you are a Christian who considers God’s word as irrelevant to you? So what is more sure than God's word?

Re: There is no Trinity

Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:41 am
by neo-x
Jerzy, I know its you...this gives you away :lol:
You still don’t understand the difference between proof texting (proving a theology looking up verses which may “proof” it) and quoting proof texts (no one can manipulate) which explain (no need for guess work or stories what they mean) exactly and clearly a topic or an issue.

Re: There is no Trinity

Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:32 am
by krystyna
neo-x
Jerzy, I know its you...this gives you away
I saw this explanation few times before & read it from jerzy's post lately.

I would like to have jerzy's knowledge. It looks as there is no point arguing with him (I tried before) because he knows what he is saying.

I also saw him posting on one or two Christian forums. The only Trinitarians can do to him is to ban him because he doesn't follow invented stories but quotes clear texts Trinitarians wish weren't there.

Re: There is no Trinity

Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:25 am
by PeteSinCA
krystyna wrote:PeteSinCA
Krystyna, you can also find many/most (all?) of the writings B.W. quoted in the Christian Classics Ethereal Library.
The Bible is the only classic for me. It doesn’t mention a Trinity God and I will not break God’s commandment to conform to man-made theologies.
Krystyna, you posted the claim that early Christian writers did not accept/teach that God is triune. B.W. posted proofs showing your claim to be false. I merely posted a link to a source by which you could verify B.W.'s quotes exist and are honestly used, without going to a site you might dismiss as a source of false teaching. IOW, I precluded a well-poisoning response from you.

Well-poisoning blocked, you resorted to the hypocrisy of dismissing the very same church fathers you had invoked when you thought you could claim they supported your views. And trying to score points on the title of the website I linked? Just. Childish. Don't like the name "Christian Classics Ethereal Library"? Take it up with the creators of that website.

IMO, your one-week suspension is an example of Christian mercy.

Re: There is no Trinity

Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:23 am
by Byblos
krystyna wrote:Babylos
First of all my name is Byblos, after the Bible, not Babylos (what I presume to be a not-so-clever pun on Babylon).
krystyna wrote:
Are you just playing stupid or do you think I am? I am asking you for the link where you lifted the above quote from.
Look up thevanquish29 opening post on page 1 the fifth entry:
"The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the fourth century. . . . Among the apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective." -New Catholic Encyclopedia." Should You Believe in the Trinity? p.7
Kryshna, do you even know the difference between copy/paste and a proof link? I have neither the time nor the inclination to look up YOUR (or your cohort's) references for you. You quote from a source (Catholic Encyclopedic) which I took the time to verify (and the quote above, by the way, is meaningless since we all readily acknowledge the word Trinity does not appear in scripture :roll:), then you follow it with another quote supposedly from the New Catholic Encyclopedia, totally confusing the reader into believing it was the same source as the first but it's not. Now I also took the time to look up the New Catholic Encyclopedia to verify the quote but I couldn't find it. This is YOUR job, I am asking you for the simple courtesy of providing links to the quotes you (vanquished) posted. Or do I need to purchase the New Catholic Encyclopedia in order to verify your sources for you?

Re: There is no Trinity

Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:40 am
by bippy123
B. W. wrote:
krystyna wrote: The Trinity God was formulated in 381 (it is the fourth not third century) under the “inspiration” of Emperor Theodosius the Great.,.
You are in error:

74 AD The Letter of Barnabas

The Letter of Barnabas "And further, my brethren, if the Lord [Jesus] endured to suffer for our soul, he being the Lord of all the world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, 'Let us make man after our image, and after our likeness,' understand how it was that he endured to suffer at the hand of men" (Letter of Barnabas 5).

80 AD Hermas

Hermas The Shepherd "The Son of God is older than all his creation, so that he became the Father's adviser in his creation. Therefore also he is ancient" (The Shepherd 12).


I Clement of Rome 80-140 AD

1 Clem 46:6
Have we not one God and one Christ and one Spirit of grace that was shed upon us? And is there not one calling in Christ?

1 Clem 58:2
Receive our counsel, and ye shall have no occasion of regret. For as God liveth, and the Lord Jesus Christ liveth, and the Holy Spirit,who are the faith and the hope of the elect, so surely shall he, whowith lowliness of mind and instant in gentleness hath without regretfulness performed the ordinances and commandments that are given by God, be enrolled and have a name among the number of themthat are saved through Jesus Christ, through whom is the glory unto Him for ever and ever. Amen.

Ignatius around 115 AD

Ignatius to the Ephesians

CHAPTER 9
9:1 But I have learned that certain persons passed through you from yonder, bringing evil doctrine; whom ye suffered not to sow seed in you, for ye stopped your ears, so that ye might not receive the seed sown by them; forasmuch as ye are stones of a temple, which were prepared beforehand for a building of God the Father, being hoisted up to the heights through the engine of Jesus Christ, which is the Cross, and using for a rope the Holy Spirit; while your faith is your windlass, and love is the way that leadeth up to God. 9:2 So then ye are all companions in the way, carrying your God and your shrine, your Christ and your holy things, being arrayed from head to foot in the commandments of Jesus Christ. And I too, taking part in the festivity, am permitted by letter to bear you company and to rejoice with you, that ye set not your love on anything after the common life of men,but only on God.


150 AD - The Apology of Aristides the Philosopher

The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High. And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man. This is taught in the gospel, as it is called, which a short time was preached among them; and you also if you will read therein, may perceive the power which belongs to it. This Jesus, then, was born of the race of the Hebrews; and he had twelve disciples in order that the purpose of his incarnation might in time be accomplished. But he himself was pierced by the Jews, and he died and was buried; and they say that after three days he rose and ascended to heaven. Thereupon these twelve disciples went forth throughout the known parts of the world, and kept showing his greatness with all modesty and uprightness. And hence also those of the present day who believe that preaching are called Christians, and they are become famous.

Justin Martyr around 150 AD

Chap. XIII. — Christians Serve God Rationally.

What sober-minded man, then, will not acknowledge that we are not atheists, worshipping as we do the Maker of this universe, and declaring, as we have been taught, that He has no need of streams of blood and libations and incense; whom we praise to the utmost of our power by the exercise of prayer and thanksgiving for all things wherewith we are supplied, as we have been taught that the only honour that is worthy of Him is not to consume by fire what He has brought into being for our sustenance, but to use it for ourselves and those who need, and with gratitude to Him to offer thanks by invocations and hymns 13 for our creation, and for all the means of health, and for the various qualities of the different kinds of things, and for the changes of the seasons; and to present before Him petitions for our existing again in incorruption through faith in Him. Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judaea, in the times of Tiberius Caesar; and that we reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third, we will prove. For they proclaim our madness to consist in this, that we give to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all; for they do not discern the mystery that is herein, to which, as we make it plain to you, we pray you to give heed.

Other quotes from him around 150 AD

150 AD Justin Martyr "The Father of the universe has a Son, who also being the first begotten Word of God, is even God." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch 63)

150 AD Justin Martyr "Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts." (Dialogue with Trypho, ch, 36)

150 AD Justin Martyr "Therefore these words testify explicitly that He [Christ] is witnessed to by Him who established these things, as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ." - Dialogue with Trypho, ch. 63.

150 AD Justin Martyr in Chap. LXVI. He (Justin) Proves From Isaiah That God Was Born From A Virgin. (Chapter Title, Chap. LXVI)

150 AD Justin Martyr "And Trypho said, "You endeavor to prove an incredible and well-nigh impossible thing;[namely], that God endured to be born and become man...some Scriptures which we mention, and which expressly prove that Christ was to suffer, to be worshipped, and [to be called] God, and which I have already recited to you, do refer indeed to Christ." (Dialogue with Trypho, ch 68)

150 AD Justin Martyr "But if you knew, Trypho," continued I, "who He is that is called at one time the Angel of great counsel, and a Man by Ezekiel, and like the Son of man by Daniel, and a Child by Isaiah, and Christ and God to be worshipped by David, and Christ and a Stone by many, and Wisdom by Solomon, and Joseph and Judah and a Star by Moses, and the East by Zechariah, and the Suffering One and Jacob and Israel by Isaiah again, and a Rod, and Flower, and Corner Stone, and Son of God, you would not have blasphemed Him who has now come, and been born, and suffered, and ascended to heaven; who shall also come again, and then your twelve tribes shall mourn. For if you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God. For Moses says somewhere in Exodus the following: `The Lord spake to Moses, and said to him, I am the Lord, and I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, being their God; and my name I revealed not to them, and I established my covenant with them.' And thus again he says, `A man wrestled with Jacob,' and asserts it was God; narrating that Jacob said, `I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.'" (Dialogue of Justin with Trypho, A Jew, Chap. CXXVI [See also The First Apology of Justin, Chap. XIII; XXII; LXIII; Dialogue of Justin with Trypho, A Jew, Chap. XXXVI; XLVIII; LVI; LIX; LXI; C; CV; CXXV; CXXVIII)

[Trypho to Justin] "...you say that this Christ existed as God before the ages, and that He submitted to be born and become man" - Dialogue with Trypho, ch.48.

Justin Martyr "We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God Himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the Mystery which lies therein" (First Apology 13:5-6).

Justin Martyr "Jesus Christ is the only proper Son who has been begotten by God, being His Word and first-begotten, and power; and, becoming man according to His will, He taught us these things for the conversion and restoration of the human race" (First Apology 23).

Justin Martyr "But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him), and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch 6) Notice what else Justin say: "Worship God alone." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch 16) "Whence to God alone we render worship." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch 17)

Justin Martyr "God begot before all creatures a Beginning, who was a certain rational power from himself and whom the Holy Spirit calls . . . sometimes the Son, . . . sometimes Lord and Word ... We see things happen similarly among ourselves, for whenever we utter some word, we beget a word, yet not by any cutting off, which would diminish the word in us when we utter it. We see a similar occurrence when one fire enkindles another. It is not diminished through the enkindling of the other, but remains as it was" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 61).

Justin Martyr "God speaks in the creation of man with the very same design, in the following words: 'Let us make man after our image and likeness' . . . I shall quote again the words narrated by Moses himself, from which we can indisputably learn that [God] conversed with someone numerically distinct from himself and also a rational being. . . . But this Offspring who was truly brought forth from the Father, was with the Father before all the creatures, and the Father communed with him" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 62).

140 AD Aristides

Aristides "[Christians] are they who, above every people of the Earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit" (Apology 16).

Others:

150 AD Polycarp of Smyrna

Polycarp of Smyrna "I praise you for all things, I bless you, I glorify you, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, with whom, to you and the Holy Spirit, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 14).

160 AD Mathetes

Mathetes "[The Father] sent the Word that he might be manifested to the world . . . This is he who was from the beginning, who appeared as if new, and was found old . . . This is he who, being from everlasting, is today called the Son" (Letter to Diognetus 11).

170 AD Tatian the Syrian

Tatian the Syrian "We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man" (Address to the Greeks 21).

177 AD Athenagoras

Athenagoras, "The Son of God is the Word of the Father in thought and actuality. By him and through him all things were made, the Father and the Son being one. Since the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son by the unity and power of the Spirit, the Mind and Word of the Father is the Son of God. And if, in your exceedingly great wisdom, it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by `the Son,' I will tell you briefly: He is the first- begotten of the Father, not as having been produced, for from the beginning God had the Word in himself, God being eternal mind and eternally rational, but as coming forth to be the model and energizing force of all material things" (Plea for the Christians 10:2-4).

"Christians know God and His Logos. They also know what type of oneness the Son has with the Father and what type of communion the Father has with the Son. Furthermore, they know what the Spirit is and what the unity is of these three: the Spirit, the Son, and the Father. They also know what their distinction is in unity." (2.134) "We acknowledge a God, and a Son (His Logos), and a Holy Spirit. These are united in essence--the Father, the Son, and the Spirit." Athenagoras (c. 175, E), 2.141


177 AD Melito of Sardis

Melito of Sardis "It is no way necessary in dealing with persons of intelligence to adduce the actions of Christ after his baptism as proof that his soul and his body, his human nature, were like ours, real and not phantasmal. The activities of Christ after his baptism, and especially his miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the deity hidden in his flesh. Being God and likewise perfect man, he gave positive indications of his two natures: of his deity, by the miracles during the three years following after his baptism, of his humanity, in the thirty years which came before his baptism, during which, by reason of his condition according to the flesh, he concealed the signs of his deity, although he was the true God existing before the ages" (Fragment in Anastasius of Sinai's The Guide 13).

190 AD Clement Of Alexandria

Clement Of Alexandria [note: Clement NEVER calls Jesus a creature.] "There was then, a Word importing an unbeginning eternity; as also the Word itself, that is, the Son of God, who being, by equality of substance, one with the Father, is eternal and uncreated." (Fragments, Part I, section III)
"that so great a work was accomplished in so brief a space by the Lord, who, though despised as to appearance, was in reality adored, the expiator of sin, the Saviour, the clement, the Divine Word, He that is truly most manifest Deity, He that is made equal to the Lord of the universe; because He was His Son, and the Word was in God, not disbelieved in by all when He was first preached, nor altogether unknown when, assuming the character of man, and fashioning Himself in flesh, He enacted the drama of human salvation: for He was a true champion and a fellow-champion with [ie. God among creatures, not that Jesus is classed as a creature] the creature." (Exhortations, Chap 10)

Many of these quotes are from this website: http://www.bible.ca/H-trinity.htm

Please take the time to look these quotes over and you can see that way before 312 AD, Krystyna, Christian people understood the triune nature of God. I suggest you look up the quotes in their resective contexts as well too.

You are in great error Krystyna...
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Excellent find on BW, especially on Justyn Marytr as I never read his works on the concept of the trinity :)
I knew that Ignatius in his letters called Jesus God 14 times in his early writings. Suffice to say that there was a solid foundation of the concept of the trinity in the earliest Christian writings. Krystyna seems to be ignoring these writings , but to convince us otherwise she would need to address these facts of the early Christian writers. There is a reason why all main stream Christians believe in the Trinity and it didnt pop up out of no where after 300 ad. The early Church was fierce in holding together the teachings that were passed down to them by the apostles and were extremely agressive and tough in calling anyone that ventured outside of these beliefs as heretics.

Take for example the docetists

http://www.thetruthdecoded.org.au/Ignat ... ntioch.php

The greatest heresy that faced Ignatius was Docetism. Docetism (coming from the Greek word 'dokesis' meaning 'to seem') held that the Son/Word of God only 'seemed' or 'appeared' to take on human flesh, but actually did not. Thus all that pertained to Jesus' humanity – birth, eating, suffering, dying, etc. – was only apparent and not real. The Docetists argued that, if the Son/Word was truly God, he could not truly assume human flesh for to do so would jeopardize and destroy his divine nature. God could not actually suffer and die. Ignatius clearly proclaimed the truth of the Incarnation.

First, Ignatius argued that Jesus, being the true Word of the Father, was the full Revealer of the Father. He speaks from the Father's 'silence' and the Word as the Father's 'mouthpiece'. As such Jesus is truly God. Ignatius, on 14 occasions calls Jesus God, and on 8 of these actually refers to him as ho theos (the God). This is very surprising at such an early date, since the New Testament seems very hesitant to call Jesus simply 'God'.

Second, what is also surprising, Ignatius is one of the first, if not the first, to use what is called 'the Communication of Idioms', that is, the predicating of divine and human attributes of one and the same person. He can speak of 'divine blood' or 'the passion of my God'. This is a very strange use of language. God does not have blood. God cannot suffer. However, if God becomes man, then God does have blood, and he can suffer, not as God but as man. This is why Ignatius used such language. It allowed him to express boldly and even scandalously, contrary to the Docetists, the truth of the Incarnation. To the Ephesians Ignatius could write about Jesus in a marvellous poetic fashion.
Very Flesh, yet Spirit too;
Uncreated, and yet born;
God-and-Man in One agreed,
Very-Life-in-Death indeed,
Fruit of God and Mary's seed
At once impassible and torn
By pain and suffering here below:
Jesus Christ, whom as our Lord we know.

Through out his letters then Ignatius stressed the reality of Jesus' humanity and the authenticity of his human experiences. His main argument for upholding the truth of the Incarnation is soteriological. If the Son of God only pretended to be a man, if his 'human' life were a mere charade and thus his birth, baptism, suffering and death were simply pantomime, then our salvation is a mere pretence and counterfeit. It has no reality either.

There was absolutely no doubt in ignatius mind that Jesus is God and he worshipped him as God, he never once said he was worshipped as A God, and he happily allowed himself to be eaten by lions in the arena as he stood by this belief, and the early Christians never once called this teaching heresy. NOT ONCE!!!

Remember Ignatius learned at the feet of John the Apostle. If anyone was privy to this teaching of Christ as God it were the students of the apostles. While not all wrote about teh incarnation and the nature of Christ the ones that did all heavily favored the concsept of the trinity , and very early on to boot.

Now if you want to tell me that Ignatius the student of John the apostle was speaking heresy about Jesus being God and wanted to just blend in pagan concepts with Christianity, your going to have to show us some solid evidence of this, and there is absolutely none in Christian history. It simply doesnt exist so what you are doing Krystyna is giving us a conspiracy theory with no solid historical evidence to back it up. Now if you cant deal with the earliest apostolic father's writings on Christ's nature and stuff like the incarnation then why are you going to waste our time. By ignoring these writings you are showing us how weak your case is against the trinity.

And Christians have read these writings understand that the trinity is believed because it was believed by the earliest Christians in Christian history, not some crazy conspiracy that has no solid evidence at all from the writings of the early Christians.

Krystyna- you need to deal with these writings or your case will always fall apart before it even starts.

Re: There is no Trinity

Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:45 am
by RickD
Sorry Byblos,

Krystyna won't be responding to you any time soon. She's on "vacation" for a week.

And I apologize to everyone here too. I was the one who approved krystyna's first post. I guess I try to give the benefit of the doubt with this kind of poster. I just hope that people come here to have honest conversations. But then we get the occasional influx of people who just have an agenda of attacking essentials of our faith.

Re: There is no Trinity

Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:45 am
by bippy123
krystyna wrote:neo-x
Prooftexting will not help your case…
You still don’t understand the difference between proof texting (proving a theology looking up verses which may “proof” it) and quoting proof texts (no one can manipulate) which explain (no need for guess work or stories what they mean) exactly and clearly a topic or an issue. So when Jesus says that he has a God and his God is my God you can dance around it for as long as you wish but you can-not change the steps. Likewise, when Jesus says that the eternal life is for them who know the Father the only true God and his anointed then you can offer me the eternal life on whatever conditions but I will not trade God’s offer for yours simply because you can-not deliver on this offer.
…even if you quote God on the matter.
Are you are a Christian who considers God’s word as irrelevant to you? So what is more sure than God's word?
Understanding God's word. The docetists all had the same scriptures the apostolic fathers (the students of the apostles) had but they chose to go against early amd mainstream Christian teachings and formulate their own belief about Jesus. The result, all Christian Churches at that time condemned them fiercly as heretics while no one condemned the apostolic fathers as heretics. this goes all the way back to even Clemente of rome in 80 ad and ignatius of antioch in 110 ad as well as polycarp (all students of the apostles). Please name me any of the early Christian writings that condemned these writers on the very subject we are talking about today.

Ill even be redundant to make sure you get the point. The number is 0, zero, zip, zippadee do daa, None Zifir (lebanese for zero lol).
If you disagree please point me to those writings ;)