Which one is right

[jlay]

Rick,
I'm not that tall! I was standing on the pavillion and the kids were on the grass, so makes me look taller than I am. (5'11") Strikingly handsome. Guilty!

[Jac3510]

If you would not be saved because you went on to become a bad person, you ARE promoting LS, since the essence of LS is that we are saved if and when we live up to God's standards. As I said, there are only two positions here.

And yes, I believe the Bible says that if you lose your faith, then you are still saved. The fact, though, that you put "believed" in scare quotes should tell you a lot about your own position. You are, as per my comments above, overloading "believe" with ideas foreign to it. For you, it seems to entail some kind of commitment or ongoing good works or living up to some standard. And so people who don't meet those standards haven't REALLY "believed"; they might have just believed. And so you implicitly distinguish between belief and "belief" and implicitly argue that we are not saved by believing but by "believing." Of course, your version of "belief" is not belief at all, which is precisely the point. If Jesus had wanted to say that we were saved by something other than belief, He would have. He did not. So your position is just saying that Jesus is mistaken insofar as what He actually SAID is not true. I know you don't mean it that way, but that is the absolutely inescapable conclusion of your position, no matter how well meaning you are.

Jesus said something very hard to believe. He said that every person who believes in Him has everlasting life. You, like most people, are just having trouble believing that Jesus actually meant what He said. And this is precisely why it is so fitting that faith alone be the means of salvation. Until you start believing Him, you are always going to struggle with your doubts.

Thank you Jac - that actually makes a lot of sense. My next question would be then - what about the demons who believe in Christ? Why aren't they saved? If they are not - then does that then imply that actually there is more to it then just belief?

1) Demons are nowhere offered salvation. It doesn't matter if they believe or not. They aren't humans. Christ came as a man to save men, who are made in the image of God (which cannot be said about angels, fallen or otherwise).
2) Even outside of that point, the salvation in Jas. 2:14ff, from which your idea comes, isn't talking about salvation from hell. He is teaching that God wants more than faith. He wants us to live it out. That doesn't mean that if we don't live it out we are going to hell. It means that if we don't live it out, we are useless (cf. Matt. 5:13, and read either the KJV or NKJV as the NIV, NASB, and ESV have the verse mistranslated; the "it" being salted refers to "the earth," not the salt itself).

So, to answer your last question, there is no more to "it" than just belief as far as our eternal destiny goes. We are either saved through faith or saved through works. There is, again, no middle ground. Now, having been saved through faith, we are then exhorted to live out that faith, or in John's language, to abide in Christ through that faith, so that we will produce works. Then we will be useful, and in that we bring the most glory to God.

--------------------------------------

And neo, as to your objection, I challenge the premise. There is and will be no person who doesn't want to be with God. Certainly in this life we may not want anything to do with Him, but that is only because we have an illformed understanding of Him. Once we see Him face to face, we will have nothing but desire for Him--and that including the most ardent atheist there is. The reason for that, by the way, is that the human will is by nature directed toward the good, and God is the Perfect Good. The reason our will is not perfectly directed toward Him in this life is that we fail to perceive that He is the Perfect Good. But in the resurrection, we will see Him for what He is, and we will desire Him above all (that is also why it is absurd to entertain the idea of Jesus sinning, by the way--not because He was God so much as because He lived with the experience of the beatific vision; that is, He saw God as He is, and so He wanted nothing else).

That turns out to be the great tragedy of damnation--not that people are consigning themselves to a fate they want for themselves, although we can speak of that being true in another sense I will say something about shortly.The great tragedy is that they are being denied something that they desparately want, and, indeed, that they could have had, that was freely offered to them. On those grounds, then, when a Christian comes to the place of hating God, then in the resurrection, it isn't that God will simply force Himself upon them. Rather, He will, in His great mercy, forgive them for that terrible sin, and in doing so, they will feel all the more drawn to His love--after all, as Jesus says, the one forgiven much loves much.

As an aside, it is worth noting that the damned are not exactly begging to hang out in heaven with repentant, remorceful, faithful hearts. On the contrary, in them, envy reigns supreme. It is important to understand that envy is wanting what others have such that we take it as a personal slight that we do not have it. As such, the envious person wishes to take away what the other has that he does not (which is different from jealousy, in which we seek to prevent others from having what we already have--even if that is for good reason; which, by the way, is why sometimes jealousy is good and other times it is bad). So the problem with the damned is not that don't want God; it is that, being sealed in their fallen state, they are "perfected" in their hatred, and they come to wish nothing but evil on the saved. They will then even resent God Himself. But note again that this resentment is not based on any hatred for who He is, but it is based on a deep and unquenchable thirst for Him. They will blame Him for their own ills, for denying Himself to them, refusing to see their damnation for what it is.

To your point, then, it is a great grace on God's part that He saves those who in this life turn their hatred towards their misperception of Him. God could certainly damn such people. He could damn any of us He chose to. But in the resurrection, He will be faithful, and He will raise His children, even those who have been angry with Him, with a perfected nature; and in that nature, when the see God as He is--as the Perfect Good--they will desire Him more than anything else, and in God's gracious faithfulness, He will give Himself to them.

OSAS, my friend. It is true. It is entailed by the gospel. Anything less entails heresy of the highest order. Gal. 1:8-9.

[Jac3510]

And, btw, I do make the same distinction jlay does between apostacy and carnality. There are different costs associated with each. But more to the point, all of my comments are with respect to those who have believed the gospel, not with false converts (cf. Matt. 7:21-23; Jesus is addressing professing Christians, but those are people who have never believed the gospel--they only believed a false gospel (e.g., LS)), and then have fallen away.

[Philip]

Rick,
I'm not that tall! I was standing on the pavillion and the kids were on the grass, so makes me look taller than I am. (5'11") Strikingly handsome. Guilty!

That's just because Rick considers anyone over 5 feet to be tall.

[RickD]

Rick,
I'm not that tall! I was standing on the pavillion and the kids were on the grass, so makes me look taller than I am. (5'11") Strikingly handsome. Guilty!

That's just because Rick considers anyone over 5 feet to be tall.

Actually,

You're not too far off. I'm precisely 5 feet 5 1/2 " tall. So to me, 5ft 11 may as well be a giant.

[Philip]

Sorry, Rick - it's FRIDAY!!!

[RickD]

And, btw, I do make the same distinction jlay does between apostacy and carnality. There are different costs associated with each. But more to the point, all of my comments are with respect to those who have believed the gospel, not with false converts (cf. <a class="rtBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Matt.%207.21-23" data-reference="Matt. 7.21-23" data-version="nasb95" data-purpose="bible-reference">Matt. 7:21-23</a>; Jesus is addressing professing Christians, but those are people who have never believed the gospel--they only believed a false gospel (e.g., LS)), and then have fallen away.

Jac,
We talked about this before, but I'm not sure I remember where you are on this.

Could you define apostasy and apostate for me?

[RickD]

IF belief in Christ is the only thing we need to be saved ( and I agree it is) then does any doctrine OTHER than Belief in Christ ( That He lived, that He died, that He was resurrected and will come again) make any difference?
I mean, we speak of heresy BUT then is the ONLY TRUE heresy NOT believing in Christ?

I would say teaching anything other than saved by grace, through faith in Christ, for salvation, is heresy.

Not speaking strictly about salvation.
I am asking that, since the only thing needed for salvation is belief in Christ and His sacrifice and resurrection, then does any other doctrine matter at all?
Trinity? Baptism? I mean even lordship salvation ( since we are on that subject), does it matter HOW one believes ( and what the belief may require of them) as long as they DO believe?

I'll answer your question with a question. Does it matter how a believer lives, and grows as a believer?

I believe so, yes.

Then I guess I would say that of course other doctrines matter. The focus of the op, as far as I could see, was about salvation. So I was really just talking about osas and salvation. The conversation hadn't gotten into sanctification, so I hadn't even brought it up really.

[RickD]

Rick,
I'm not that tall! I was standing on the pavillion and the kids were on the grass, so makes me look taller than I am. (5'11") Strikingly handsome. Guilty!

Jlay,

I pictured you looking a little different. I kinda had an image of you looking like a skinny, short-haired, reformed hippy.

[Philip]

I totally agree with those that have remarked that so many Christians are blown all over the map due to the waxing and waning of how they happen to FEEL spiritually in any give moment or period of time. Positionally, God looks at Christians as they will one day be - not the dismal, fractured, sin-dripping creatures we are now. Also agree that, often, the spiritual lows come because we have great doubts about ourselves and our ability to live out our Christianity in God-honoring ways. We know ourselves so well and know just how flawed and unacceptable we must seem to God.

Nowadays, whenever I have doubts, they are smaller and go away much faster. And I have found that the less I isolate myself from consistent interactions with other believers, the much less I have doubtful days. But doubt, pessimism and depression thrive when we isolate ourselves, with the our narcissistic brains in overdrive, thinking about all that worries and bugs us. I'm a big believer in mental decision trees. So, nowadays, if I doubt God or Jesus - as I know it is totally illogical to believe that the universe, our world and all life "just happened" - a cosmic accident, if you will - then I ask myself, if not Jesus - WHO! Christianity offers the only explanatory faith, historical, prophetical evidences, etc. Because in my logical analysis, there absolutely HAD to have been a "First Causer" - and except for the God of Israel, there simply are no other plausible candidates nor are there. If I say there is no Jesus, then who or what do I logically replace Him with - certainly not random naturalism. So, when I have doubts, my rational side quickly brings me back, keeps me from warping out into the illogical world of FEELINGS. God just did not call us to a blind faith, and He gave us a rational brain to work our way through our often-inaccurate feelings. And the evidences He has given us are very powerful - powerful enough to reveal that they are not coincidences.

[Philip]

Rick, it's all good for you! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... -says.html
You'll be dancing on basketball power forwards and centers graves!

[RickD]

Rick, it's all good for you! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... -says.html
You'll be dancing on basketball power forwards and centers graves!

That just means everyone will have to put up with my crappy jokes a lot longer!

[Philip]

That just means everyone will have to put up with my crappy jokes a lot longer!

Ooh - I didn't think about that. Oh well, you can take the clown out of the circus, but ...

[1over137]

Rick, it's all good for you! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... -says.html
You'll be dancing on basketball power forwards and centers graves!

That just means everyone will have to put up with my crappy jokes a lot longer!

[FlawedIntellect]

Whelp, there's one disadvantage to my height. That, and I can't fit through short corridors very well. I can reach things that other people need something to stand on to reach, though.

And no, I'm not into basketball.