OSAS

[abelcainsbrother]

Ephesians.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxxfOEW-FGE

[melanie]

Assuming that we are talking about 'true' christians. People who sincerely accepted the gift of salvation how bad or far do they have to stumble before God gives up on them?
The preacher who has his public life splashed all over the tabloids for having an affair? The women who experiences too much loss that she questions Gods existence or goodness, the man who struggles with self acceptance and drinks to numb the doubt? The youth who cannot get past childhood trauma and sticks a needle in his vein too often till he becomes a slave to it?
At what point does God turn His back on us and walks away?
That's what we do.
That's our humanity.
We turn on back and give up on ourselves, on life, on spouses, family, friends and God. When it gets too tough, when we are fed up, when we cant take it anymore we do the walking.
But God doesn't.
Our sin places a distance between ourselves and God that is too great for any of us to ever bridge. We cannot get to God, so God came to us, He did through Jesus, he bridged the gap. Forever. It is done. We can't ever truly distance ourselves from Gods love no matter how hard we try and outrun Him. His promise is eternal, crosses all boundries and bridges all gaps.
Gods love for us never falters, if it did then He could give up on us and walk away but His love is eternal.
Praise be to God, we don't deserve it but we are blessed beyond comprehension.

Well said Melanie.
Are you sure you're a true blonde?

Ha, well my hairdresser helps out

Ha! I knew it! You're to smart to be blonde! The best of both worlds. The looks of a blonde, and the brains of a brunette.

Signed,

Rick you need to move past the stereo-typical cliches, it make you sound a little well Blonde
I'm half Finnish, I'm blonde just not that blonde, I was once upon a time. I'm also Aussie.
It's confusing for a blonde. I don't whether to have a Vegemite sandwich, chuck a shrimp on the barbie, although I've not quite worked out how to turn the gas on , then wash it down with a VB or vodka? , bake some pulla,then jump in my sauna although you use cold water to make it hotter, never quite got my head around that. Not to mention I still haven't located that missing pencil
Stop derailing a serious thread klown

[Mallz]

I think that there are things that can happen that can cause a person to reject Christ ( on an emotional level more than any other I think).

Like those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit? So, could we affirm that OSAS is true except with blasphemers?

Or is my definition of a blasphemer wrong?:
"A person like that KNOWS that Christ exists and knows the gospel of Grace BUT chooses to reject it" who attributes God to satan? Or would it really be anyone/thing to claim God is evil, the devil?

Yes, it IS elitist, only in the sense that although EVERYONE is give the opportunity to eternally join God's elite Family, that there also is ONLY one way into that family (through Jesus!).

I'm in agreement.

Pr-destination is not God merely His foreknowing who will accept His offer of salvation (truly available to EVERYONE), but God chooses us (Christians). And He chooses us based upon His Holy values, righteousness, love, mercy and will. God did not merely leave salvation up to our blundering, bumbling, blind, supposed ability to find Him.

And is it not inevitable for all of Gods creations to be chosen, because of self-determinate will?
Is the contrast then true that God doesn't choose people?
Is there an issue with creating beings God does not choose? I feel like there is.
Or is it simply God knows who will choose Him, so He chooses them and puts them best in their life to know Him?

I do not have a reason biblically to think a person can lose their salvation.

How about blasphemy as I'm currently understanding it? Or is it impossible for true believers as defined by PaulSacramento to blaspheme? <--- That might be true.

I actually think it is the opposite if you believe a person can lose their salvation then it is you judging them and thinking in your mind you're better than them.

It can definitely be taken that way, and denominations have and have abused it. I just want to distance myself from them and affirm me thinking you can lose salvation had nothing to do with my fleshly ego :p

I don't know if person x is saved. If I ask him a few questions, and assume his answers are honest, I can tell if he's a believer.

Gotcha.

If someone trusts Christ for salvation, he is saved. He has eternal life. Nothing can change that.

Same question to you. Can a believer blaspheme the Holy Spirit? If he can, is he the exception?
Or is it that a believer cannot sin in this way? A gift given to Christians that reflects our free will but disposition to sin that awaits us after these bodies are perfected? How did Jac put it... I forget the term, but it was in explanation of how Jesus was incapable of sin. How we will be in the future...

As far as self determination, I don't know what you mean.

I mean free will, sorry.

The preacher who has his public life splashed all over the tabloids for having an affair? The women who experiences too much loss that she questions Gods existence or goodness, the man who struggles with self acceptance and drinks to numb the doubt? The youth who cannot get past childhood trauma and sticks a needle in his vein too often till he becomes a slave to it?

Do you think there are people like this who never had the opportunity to know God, to come to Him and die before they do? And if so, what do you think happens to them? Are they given the same grace as innocence?

How about the life long drunk whose been numbing his pain his whole mortal coil, then dies before knowing he could have faith?
Or someone who knows so much about so many false christian denominations and rightfully rejects it, but by throwing Christianity away because of such venom, he never comes to know God before he dies?

Ephesians.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxxfOEW-FGE

I really enjoyed this

[RickD]

1over137 wrote:
If we cannot 'gain' it then how so that somehow we can 'for-gain' it based on God's for-knowledge?
This question came to my mind when reading your sentence.

Hana,

Could you reword the question? I'm not sure what you mean.

[1over137]

1over137 wrote:
If we cannot 'gain' it then how so that somehow we can 'for-gain' it based on God's for-knowledge?
This question came to my mind when reading your sentence.

Hana,

Could you reword the question? I'm not sure what you mean.

I take it back Rick. I know where my mistake was.

[RickD]

1over137 wrote:
If we cannot 'gain' it then how so that somehow we can 'for-gain' it based on God's for-knowledge?
This question came to my mind when reading your sentence.

Hana,

Could you reword the question? I'm not sure what you mean.

I take it back Rick. I know where my mistake was.

Well don't be shy. Share your revelation with us!

[1over137]

1over137 wrote:
If we cannot 'gain' it then how so that somehow we can 'for-gain' it based on God's for-knowledge?
This question came to my mind when reading your sentence.

Hana,

Could you reword the question? I'm not sure what you mean.

I take it back Rick. I know where my mistake was.

Well don't be shy. Share your revelation with us!

The Great Revelation:

Hana, think twice before posting something. And do not be stressed if you do not manage to respond within some time to some questions.

[melanie]

1over137 wrote:
If we cannot 'gain' it then how so that somehow we can 'for-gain' it based on God's for-knowledge?
This question came to my mind when reading your sentence.

Hana,

Could you reword the question? I'm not sure what you mean.

I take it back Rick. I know where my mistake was.

Well don't be shy. Share your revelation with us!

The Great Revelation:

Hana, think twice before posting something. And do not be stressed if you do not manage to respond within some time to some questions.

The great Revelation:
I agree Hana!
Speaking for myself, think before you speak Mel has turned into think before you post. I am yet to conquer either!

[crochet1949]

Once saved always saved Because upon salvation the Holy Spirit immediately comes to indwell the person and thus secures his soul until he is safely with Jesus Christ. Sometimes there Is the question of how a person is Acting After having professed Christ as Savior. If there's No change -- no interest in God's Word -- no outward evidence Of a changed heart. Then there should be Someone concerned enough to take the person aside and privately ask. Or there Should be a class or counseling provided by the pastor or Sunday School teacher or follow-up from VBS.
There Are times when a person 'walks the aisle' simply because they're encouraged to -- then they are told to repeat a prayer and sign a card and get handed a booklet. But no one has actually Talked to them -- Why did you come forward?
Or they are told to or decide to go to church to Find God. Or they are told they Need to be in church. But there can be a false sense of 'security' in singing songs, praying and listening to a sermon. Sure - they are 'doing church' -- but they haven't accepted Jesus Christ as personal Savior / thus / the Holy Spirit has Not come to indwell and they haven't been changed on the Inside.
And when a person has grown up in church -- they've heard about salvation and could probably lead another person to Christ -- but haven't actually Accepted for themselves. that was Me for a few years -- Pastor challenged --about not being Sure of their Personal salvation. He said a person can pray to God Any time / anywhere. So I did -- and then I Knew For Certain that I Was born-again. People in church Assumed I was saved cause my parents were active in the church and so was I. But my first year at church camp, our cabin counselor challenged us and I realized I didn't have an experience to share with the others.
And some times people wander away -- for years at times -- but eventually do come back.

[melanie]

I think that there are things that can happen that can cause a person to reject Christ ( on an emotional level more than any other I think).

Like those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit? So, could we affirm that OSAS is true except with blasphemers?

Or is my definition of a blasphemer wrong?:
"A person like that KNOWS that Christ exists and knows the gospel of Grace BUT chooses to reject it" who attributes God to satan? Or would it really be anyone/thing to claim God is evil, the devil?

Yes, it IS elitist, only in the sense that although EVERYONE is give the opportunity to eternally join God's elite Family, that there also is ONLY one way into that family (through Jesus!).

I'm in agreement.

Pr-destination is not God merely His foreknowing who will accept His offer of salvation (truly available to EVERYONE), but God chooses us (Christians). And He chooses us based upon His Holy values, righteousness, love, mercy and will. God did not merely leave salvation up to our blundering, bumbling, blind, supposed ability to find Him.

And is it not inevitable for all of Gods creations to be chosen, because of self-determinate will?
Is the contrast then true that God doesn't choose people?
Is there an issue with creating beings God does not choose? I feel like there is.
Or is it simply God knows who will choose Him, so He chooses them and puts them best in their life to know Him?

I do not have a reason biblically to think a person can lose their salvation.

How about blasphemy as I'm currently understanding it? Or is it impossible for true believers as defined by PaulSacramento to blaspheme? <--- That might be true.

I actually think it is the opposite if you believe a person can lose their salvation then it is you judging them and thinking in your mind you're better than them.

It can definitely be taken that way, and denominations have and have abused it. I just want to distance myself from them and affirm me thinking you can lose salvation had nothing to do with my fleshly ego :p

I don't know if person x is saved. If I ask him a few questions, and assume his answers are honest, I can tell if he's a believer.

Gotcha.

If someone trusts Christ for salvation, he is saved. He has eternal life. Nothing can change that.

Same question to you. Can a believer blaspheme the Holy Spirit? If he can, is he the exception?
Or is it that a believer cannot sin in this way? A gift given to Christians that reflects our free will but disposition to sin that awaits us after these bodies are perfected? How did Jac put it... I forget the term, but it was in explanation of how Jesus was incapable of sin. How we will be in the future...

As far as self determination, I don't know what you mean.

I mean free will, sorry.

The preacher who has his public life splashed all over the tabloids for having an affair? The women who experiences too much loss that she questions Gods existence or goodness, the man who struggles with self acceptance and drinks to numb the doubt? The youth who cannot get past childhood trauma and sticks a needle in his vein too often till he becomes a slave to it?

Do you think there are people like this who never had the opportunity to know God, to come to Him and die before they do? And if so, what do you think happens to them? Are they given the same grace as innocence?

How about the life long drunk whose been numbing his pain his whole mortal coil, then dies before knowing he could have faith?
Or someone who knows so much about so many false christian denominations and rightfully rejects it, but by throwing Christianity away because of such venom, he never comes to know God before he dies?

Ephesians.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxxfOEW-FGE

I really enjoyed this

Great question Mallz
The truth is we don't know.
I say that because we really don't know what exchange a person has had within their heart with God. I read recently where a converted atheist who was also a surgeon was on deaths door say 'that is was easy to be an atheist in life but an entirely different situation facing death'. He felt compelled to reach out to Jesus' sincerely. He asked his only christian friend to come sit with him, and he accepted Jesus and was spared of a disorder that he had seen take the life of many being a surgeon.
An addict or drunk in moments of clarity could have reached out to God.

12For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

God sees into the deep recesses of a persons heart, a place that none of us can see or really judge another upon. That I think goes for people who fall into churches preaching false doctrine.

The question of people who have never heard the gospel is a tricky one. We live in a world where the explosion of information has reached far and wide but there are still people in other countries who have not heard the Good News and in centuries past there have been many.
That leaves us with reconciling the unmovable truth that the only way to the Father is through Jesus with a loving, kind and compassionate God.
I have heard this answered in differing ways;
They are in hell,
God places those in geographic locations depending on His choosing and His calling,
God knows our hearts and will judge a person on Him knowing what decision they would have made had they have had the chance.
I was recently reading of a man from China who was being ministered too, he asked what of my family? My mother who has long passed, my ancestors, they did not hear of Jesus. He was told 'they are in hell'. He told the ministering christian that he did not want to be without his family and that it wasn't fair to which he was told that it wasn't up to us what's fair and he would be so happy and at peace in heaven he wouldn't worry about his family. At that point in his life he walked away.

It is often rightly said that those who don't make it into the Kingdom of Heaven have rejected God. They do not want to be in His presence and Heaven can only be for those whom have the desire to be perfected by God otherwise it would cease to be in perfection.

Can ignorance be classed as rejection?
I don't think so.
Can it be argued that all those millions of people who lived in cultures where they weren't exposed to Christianity are in hell, again I don't think so.
Now I could be wrong, I do not want to question Gods wisdom, in either respect.
I just trust God. I trust His mercy and compassion. Damning whole factions of people to hell is not a road I am comfortable walking down.

[Philip]

Melanie wrote: Can ignorance be classed as rejection? I don't think so. Can it be argued that all those millions of people who lived in cultures where they weren't exposed to Christianity are in hell, again I don't think so. Now I could be wrong, I do not want to question Gods wisdom, in either respect.
I just trust God. I trust His mercy and compassion. Damning whole factions of people to hell is not a road I am comfortable walking down.

One CAN reject Jesus by rejecting God as He has ALREADY revealed Himself - even though that initial revealing may not have included knowledge of the Gospel and knowledge about Jesus (see Romans 1). It is interesting that God reveals the reason for the doomed fate of the heathen, in Romans 1, and yet the specific rejection Jesus is never even mentioned - in fact, addressing the issue of what those without the Gospel have rejected about God (Whom necessarily includes Jesus), Paul says what they have already rejected, that they already knew about God, is enough to seal their fate.

Melanie, please read this G&S thread I started on this very important topic: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 38#p101538