Evidence for God from Science

Funny thing, this whole "hearing God's VOICE" conjecture. Some insist God NEVER speaks audibly. While I've never heard Him audibly, I can't say that He doesn't still sometimes speak in such a way. Scripture tells us that He has spoke in such a way many times in the past. And God is unchanging - so can He not still speak when and if He so desires to? But, for whatever reason, I do believe this to be exceptionally rare. And, except for some key individuals in Scripture, even in the Bible His speaking so would appear to be rare. Remember, there was essentially "radio silence" from God to Israel before Jesus' time. The other thing is we often read through Scripture and forget that a few pages can cover immense periods of time. But reading through the Bible one could falsely get the impression that in Biblical times God constantly audibly spoke with people. But it would appear that was not the case. And, even when He DID speak audibly, it appears that He only did so to select people/prophets, etc. Of course, Jesus did a LOT of audible speaking. But does God need to AUDIBLY communicate with us? Is He limited in HOW He communicates with us?

In my current leading of a book study (Geisler's "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist"), he speculates as to why God doesn't just peel back the clouds with a big cosmic "peek-a-boo" - so that everyone would know of His existence, that it would be unmistakeable. Geisler thinks that God may find such an overt showing of Himself to be coercive and invasive of one's free will to deny Him. Also, He believes God's overt presence would be overwhelming to the point that no one could resist Him. Geisler believes God will not force but only woo us, that He will not violate our free will to believe or disbelieve. And it's certainly not that He will not reveal Himself to those who truly seek him. Of course, Jesus temporarily gave up some of His Glory and humbled Himself in human form - as without doing so, no mere mortal could stand in His presence.

Philip wrote:Funny thing, this whole "hearing God's VOICE" conjecture. Some insist God NEVER speaks audibly. While I've never heard Him audibly, I can't say that He doesn't still sometimes speak in such a way. Scripture tells us that He has spoke in such a way many times in the past. And God is unchanging - so can He not still speak when and if He so desires to? But, for whatever reason, I do believe this to be exceptionally rare. And, except for some key individuals in Scripture, even in the Bible His speaking so would appear to be rare. Remember, there was essentially "radio silence" from God to Israel before Jesus' time. The other thing is we often read through Scripture and forget that a few pages can cover immense periods of time. But reading through the Bible one could falsely get the impression that in Biblical times God constantly audibly spoke with people. But it would appear that was not the case. And, even when He DID speak audibly, it appears that He only did so to select people/prophets, etc. Of course, Jesus did a LOT of audible speaking. But does God need to AUDIBLY communicate with us? Is He limited in HOW He communicates with us?

In my current leading of a book study (Geisler's "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist"), he speculates as to why God doesn't just peel back the clouds with a big cosmic "peek-a-boo" - so that everyone would know of His existence, that it would be unmistakeable. Geisler thinks that God may find such an overt showing of Himself to be coercive and invasive of one's free will to deny Him. Also, He believes God's overt presence would be overwhelming to the point that no one could resist Him. Geisler believes God will not force but only woo us, that He will not violate our free will to believe or disbelieve. And it's certainly not that He will not reveal Himself to those who truly seek him. Of course, Jesus temporarily gave up some of His Glory and humbled Himself in human form - as without doing so, no mere mortal could stand in His presence.

IMO, I don't think that God speaks to us UNTIL we already have faith in Him because He knows it will "unduly" influence us to believe in Him when He wants us to come to Him of our own free will and out of love.
His "whispers" of love are always there, He is always there BUT He will never "violate" our free will by "imposing" Himself on anyone and that is what speaking to them directly would be.

So, yes, I agree Philip.

IMO, I don't think that God speaks to us UNTIL we already have faith in Him because He knows it will "unduly" influence us to believe in Him

Merely speaking to us is NOT coercive. God spoke to Paul before he believed. He sent a message to Cornelius, He spoke to Moses in a burning bush before he believed in the one, true God. Jesus spoke to many whom refused to believe.

when He wants us to come to Him of our own free will and out of love.

This is true - He wants us to come to Him freely and in love. HOWEVER, Scripture teaches that we cannot come to Him without Him FIRST reaching to us or without His help. All we can do is to BE WILLING to obey and positively RESPOND as He enlightens and woos us. And He will woo and further enlighten ALL He foreknows will be benefit by His enlightening and wooing actions (that they WILL respond, will be receptive, will not reject - and will do so ALL THE WAY TO THEIR SALVATION). But He Himself does not MAKE us respond - He merely gives us all of the understanding, tools and ability to do so. He also gives ALL those who eternally reject Him ENOUGH to know 1) He exists and provides; 2) That their consciences accuse them of transgressing His basic moral laws written upon their hearts; 3) To be aware that they are rejecting at least the basics about Himself God has provided ALL (no, they do not need to know of Jesus or the Resurrection to reject God - if you permanently reject God, ANY part of Him, you have also rejected Christ). God will give ALL whatever they need to know what they need to be saved IF they want to know more - that is, instead of running from the light they DO have, they move closer to it, seeking to understand what light they have ALREADY been provided. To turn away, to run away, to pretend that at least the light one does have doesn't really exist - these are all forms and behaviors of those who reject God. Remember, God foreknows and can see ALL future decisions and the ultimate/permanent decisions (whether to reject/avoid or to accept/embrace God) of everyone's final lifetime decisions (concerning God).

Merely speaking to us is NOT coercive. God spoke to Paul before he believed. He sent a message to Cornelius, He spoke to Moses in a burning bush before he believed in the one, true God. Jesus spoke to many whom refused to believe.

I didn't sat it was coercive, that is a very strong word with negative implications.
That said, note that Paul and Moses most certainly didn't have a "choice" after God spoke to them directly.
Besides, Paul believed in God ( though he most certainly did not understand what was going with Christ) and Moses was LOOKING for God.

Paul: I didn't sat it was coercive, that is a very strong word with negative implications.

That said, note that Paul and Moses most certainly didn't have a "choice" after God spoke to them directly.

So are we to believe that God FORCED Paul and Moses to believe, to obey? That's coercive! And "merely" God speaking does not force belief. Ever stop to think that God knows that specific people He enlightens, will then obey that enlightenment?

Besides, Paul believed in God ( though he most certainly did not understand what was going with Christ)

The devil believes in God - and Paul was previously doing the devil's bidding. Also, Paul FIRST had a period to reflect and decide to obey the Voice on the Damascus road: "And for three days he was without sight, and neither ate nor drank." During these three days, Ananias was given a vision to go to Paul - who was not YET saved, as he had not YET received the Holy Spirit: "Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said (while first further explaining to Paul God's purposes for him), “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized." So, Paul was not immediately saved on the Road to Damascus. During his three days of fasting, blindness and reflection, and upon further understanding given by Ananias, and THEN Paul received the Holy Spirit. He had three days to reflect upon what God had made Him aware of, and as to whether he was willing to obey. Paul was no different than all, as ALL saved people must decide to OBEY God's voice (whether audible or only spiritual prompting and enlightening). Now, did God, before He called Paul, Moses, etc., not know that these were people who would OBEY His voice if He called them with it? Of course!




and Moses was LOOKING for God.

So are we to believe that God FORCED Paul and Moses to believe, to obey? That's coercive! And "merely" God speaking does not force belief. Ever stop to think that God knows that specific people He enlightens, will then obey that enlightenment?

Paul and Moses already believed ( Paul more so and Moses was looking to believe).
God didn't force them but revealed Himself to those already looking for His truth ( even if in a misguided way).
Of course God knows who He to enlighten, that is what we have agreed on already, repeatedly.
The question is why God doesn't reveal Himself to those that don't believe so that they do believe.

Truth is that I think most, if not all, would NOT believe even if God did reveal Himself.
I am sure most, if not all, would rather believe they are suffering from mental problems than believe that God is speaking to them.

During these three days, Ananias was given a vision to go to Paul - who was not YET saved, as he had not YET received the Holy Spirit:

Surely Paul was already saved, I mean, God had known that Paul would receive Christ even before Paul was born.

Paul and Moses already believed (Paul more so and Moses was looking to believe).

How could either "already" believe before God had so enlightened them? God's effective enlightening happened with the burning bush and on the Damascus Road. But what is effective for one is not necessarily effective for another.

Paul: The question is why God doesn't reveal Himself to those that don't believe so that they do believe.

He DOES reveal Himself to all, at least on some level, but He will not coerce, as for most, that is what it would take. EVERY person has to believe of their own heart and mind, else it would be God's faith and not our own. Of course, He initiates, woos and has already (at the Cross) made belief and faith POSSIBLE but not mandated. Yes, He has always known the entirety of The Eternal Church's membership, but allows it to play out in real-time on earth.

Philip: During these three days, Ananias was given a vision to go to Paul - who was not YET saved, as he had not YET received the Holy Spirit:

Paul: Surely Paul was already saved, I mean, God had known that Paul would receive Christ even before Paul was born.

Scripture teaches there is a moment of salvation, which is simultaneous with the moment of belief and faith. And that is the moment in which one receives the Holy Spirit. Moses lived before the time of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit - at least as it has been manifested ever since Pentecost. Paul did not receive the Holy Spirit until three days after being blinded on the road, and THEN/afterward is when he received the Holy Spirit. Calvinists always love to point to Paul's being "regenerated" out on the road, but they conveniently "forget" his three days of blindness, in which he had time to ponder what he had been enlightened to.

Philip wrote:Moses lived before the time of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit - at least as it has been manifested ever since Pentecost.

Slightly jaded statement.

The Holy Spirit comes in Jesus' Name since Pentecost - the proceeding from the Father has never varied, though.

Such manifestation beyond a single generation is the basis for Tradition.

God speaks to us in the way He created you to be , He speaks to me one way and you another. Do you ever get an unction for something or someone? Feel the need to bear someones burden and get involved and help them out? A overwhelming feeling of compassion accompanied with tears, Thats one way He talks with us . I know i wish i got the audio voice of God and a news paper of Him everyday but i dont. I just have to take what i feel He says to me in my mind on faith. Is it Him or is it me , i dont know , but what i do hear i take on faith and see where it goes. However i did ask to see Him once and He told me blessed are those who havent seen and still believe . I told Him i didnt wanna hear that. lol Also in dreams He can talk with us , those dreams are not the ones you forget 45 seconds after waking up but you can remeber every detail.

PaulSacramento wrote:

During these three days, Ananias was given a vision to go to Paul - who was not YET saved, as he had not YET received the Holy Spirit:

Surely Paul was already saved, I mean, God had known that Paul would receive Christ even before Paul was born.

Depends what you mean by already saved. In one sense we can say that all are already saved, since Christ's finished work is all that is necessary to save someone from their sins. But obviously all don't inherit eternal life do they? So, is it determined who will and won't inherit eternal life? In one sense yes. Those who believe will inherit eternal life. That is determined.
But is salvation actualized in such a way that one isn't free to entrust oneself to the Gospel? And, does God's omniscience of what someone will do, mean that God is making make them do said thing? God has created us as willful beings. This is an area where we confuse God's knowledge and how things are actualized by created beings with free will.

Now, I really don't have a problem saying that God forced Paul to believe. In a sense, he did. But not against his will. If I put a gun to your head and force you to say that Islam is the correct religion, I may be able to coerce you to state that this is true, but I haven't actually convinced you that it's true. In other words, I haven't forced you to believe it. Now, if I built a time machine, took you back in time where you witnessed the crucifixion, saw Jesus die, be buried and then you actually saw and spoke with the risen Jesus, I would have essentially forced you to believe, although not against your will. Of course we could go on and say that this still doesn't mean you have entrusted your salvation to this Jesus.

I suppose one of the most difficult things to understand is why did Paul receive such a clear and overwhelming confirmation of Jesus, and yet most of us do not. I would guess that Paul's mission is part of the reason. Same with Moses.

jlay: I suppose one of the most difficult things to understand is why did Paul receive such a clear and overwhelming confirmation of Jesus, and yet most of us do not. I would guess that Paul's mission is part of the reason. Same with Moses.

Certainly, with Paul, short of coercion, so at to get his undivided attention, to powerfully convince him, that's probably what it took to make Paul realize the Truth and His Identity, to make him do a 180. With others, it takes various things to draw and convince them. We're all different in what we might respond to. But make no mistake, Ananias event prompted Paul to do what he needed to do: "And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name." Paul did not have to call on the Lord, He didn't have to accept the Baptism symbolic of what had changed in his heart and mind.

jlay wrote:But obviously all don't inherit eternal life do they?

Why shouldn't they?

And what is so obvious about it that they don't?

thesign wrote:

jlay wrote:But obviously all don't inherit eternal life do they?

Why shouldn't they?

And what is so obvious about it that they don't?

How does one receive eternal life?
By believing on Jesus.
Not everyone believes on Jesus.
Therefore, it is obvious that all don't inherit eternal life.

Jlay: But obviously all don't inherit eternal life do they?

TheSign: Why shouldn't they?

And what is so obvious about it that they don't?

Hopefully, this isn't a serious question. Very simple: One dies before placing their faith in Jesus, they are not saved. Is it obvious to US that someone will not inherit eternal life? Course not - we'd don't see how one's permanent response to God will play out. We can't see people's hearts and minds. All we can do (as Christians) is gauge what fruit we do or don't see at any given moment in someone's life, to assess whether or not someone is truly saved - and even then we might be mistaken. Only God sees the heart, only God sees all future decisions to follow or reject His graciously outstretched hands. He stands at the door and knocks, but He won't break that door down. You can respond to His knocks by putting on earplugs and not looking out the window to see He's still there, but that won't mean He's not there.