Evidence for God from Science

UsagiTsukino wrote:Well techically they do teach we have to keep the sabbath yet Paul did not repeat the Sabbath as a law and the simple fact that it's been stated that Sabbath law and Mosaic LAw was for the jews. Gentiles did not follow these laws. Gentiles are Christians. SO SDA are Christians too. I mean there are some churches that are sabbath but they say your going to hell.

Sure, you can find all types in any religion.

The trouble with talking about the different denominations, is that they are all a mix of believers and non believers, and the saying that the broad way leads to destruction and the narrow way to salvation, applies to the church members as well.

People can misrepresent their own church. I have become aware of several churches including the SDA church which have had splits in their congregations for various reasons. The outcome has shut many churches down, which make me wonder if they have been infiltrated by those whose mission has an agenda to destroy essential Christianity within communities.

People differ, but can we go by what the churches have written down as their beliefs, in creeds, etc. And then test those writings against the Bible. I think even here, the churches have seen divisions among the parishioners.

The SDA's teach the Sabbath of the Bible, and not Sunday, which is a Catholic declaration, and of course the most commonly accepted holy day in the world, and by Pagan religions as well, from where it was originally adopted. Friday would come in second by popularity through the Muslim world, and Saturday is third, and upheld by many of Jewish faith.

The basis for this keeping of the Sabbath is part of their recognition that the law of God is immutable/everlasting, as I find consistent with scripture, e.g, Psalms 111:8 KJV.

Some people would like to put forward arguments for the different holy days, and even for none at all.
But in the end, everyone of us has to be sure what the Bible actually says on the different doctrines.
Especially with so many conflicting religions in the world, as well as the tendency for them to all unite into one massive soup, under the spell of a Universal or Cosmic christ idea.

The dismissal of the 7th Day Sabbath, is due to a few doctrines which basically do away with the Old Testament and the ten commandments in the ark of the covenant. Another misconception is the idea that the two covenants represent the old and new testaments, when in fact both covenants existed in type from the beginning, for example with Cain and Abel.

The faith of Abraham applies to those of the new covenant, not based on the promises of the people, but on the promises of God, which unlike the word of man, are backed by creative and saving power.

The covenant God made with Israel at Sinai was based on His saving power - and its success depended on the people accepting that protection, but they forsook the Lord and went after idols,
but the Law of God remained with the words "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me." "I am the Lord your God that has delivered you from bondage."

The living or new covenant was for people who were saved by Him, but they denied this position of honor by their forgetfulness and unbelief, giving birth to the old covenant again, just like Cain did not appreciate the meaning of the sacrificial lamb.

Paul, the disciples, and the early Church right up until 400 AD kept the Sabbath, not Sunday, which became official on the pain of economic sanction, torture and death by the Catholic church. The true Christian church went underground for over a thousand years, and still kept the Sabbath. It was the survival of the true Sabbath through the entire dark ages that allowed the Methodists to pick up on it, and from there it was accepted by people from all denominations, accumulating and growing in the SDA church. Early Seventh Day Adventists were a mix of many denominations and newly converted who learned about the Sabbath.

The very last church in the Bible, keeps the commandments of God, and therefor must honor the Sabbath, which is the fourth Commandment of God. And of course they have the faith of Jesus. Rev 14:12. It is very obvious what the mark of the beast is.
During WW II there was a deliberate genocide of millions of Sabbath keepers. Now we are seeing the slaughter and breakdown of the Friday keepers, through means which appear to be of themselves.

One problem the Mosaic Law is the ten commandants and that was from Israelites (Deuteronomy 4:1,44,45 )(Exodus 31:13,16,17) and the gentiles were not under these laws we are the gentiles but I'm being judgment sorry guys. So is it wrong to church on sunday?

UsagiTsukino wrote:One problem the Mosaic Law is the ten commandants and that was from Israelites (Deuteronomy 4:1,44,45 )(Exodus 31:13,16,17) and the gentiles were not under these laws we are the gentiles but I'm being judgment sorry guys. So is it wrong to church on sunday?

No it's not wrong to go to church on Sunday. You go any day you want to go. That's between you and God.


And btw, the sabbath laws were about resting. Not about which day to worship God.

Some people make sabbath worship about worshiping the sabbath day. It goes way too far.

Paul, the disciples, and the early Church right up until 400 AD kept the Sabbath, not Sunday, which became official on the pain of economic sanction, torture and death by the Catholic church. The true Christian church went underground for over a thousand years, and still kept the Sabbath.

Starhunter, can you give me a link to this.. I never heard of it and all I can find claims exactly the opposite...

http://www.gotquestions.org/Saturday-Sunday.html

http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/ ... -to-sunday

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/ ... bbath.html

there are many more references I read available, some providing better biblical account than others, but none I could find with your historical account. Google Saturday or Sunday day of Sabbath

The reason why I find the whole Sabbath debate so silly is that Sabbath is a foreshadowing of what is supposed to be..
The Sabbath was given to ancient Hebrews to make sure they spent one day a week to rest in the Lord. To come to Him and know Him.
He didn't want His people working every day ceaselessly which was the norm in the ancient world.
Now, we know the Sabbath was given to us, for us so we may rest and come to the Lord.
'At least one day a week come to me in rest and love. At least once a week pay attention to me'.. is what He is saying..

The Sabbath should be every day. We should be praying ceaselessly in a relationship with Him. That is what we are called to be... in communion constantly.

So why do people try to limit the Sabbath to one day? Or keep making it something it's not?

Soon everyday will be Sabbath and it will just be how things are.. natural.

EssentialSacrifice wrote:

Paul, the disciples, and the early Church right up until 400 AD kept the Sabbath, not Sunday, which became official on the pain of economic sanction, torture and death by the Catholic church. The true Christian church went underground for over a thousand years, and still kept the Sabbath.

Starhunter, can you give me a link to this.. I never heard of it and all I can find claims exactly the opposite...

I've got this small quote for you, near where you were looking.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_in_Christianity

The Book "The Great Controversy" quotes many historians and other writings in regard to church history during the dark ages.
You can read it for free on line.

There are many sites which deal with this topic in favor of Sabbath keeping history, and a few sites which make opposite claims, - that the early Christian church kept Sunday, but there is no proof of that from history or the scriptures.
Sunday was kept by some pagan societies, but generally not by Christians. However, Sunday gradually became more popular, as the Christian era gave way, to the era of pagan Roman emperors and eventually the inauguration of the Bishop of Rome as the official ruler.

However there were some whole nations which kept the Sabbath, either religiously or as a day of secular rest, right through the most part of the dark ages. But these nations were not European, where the Papacy was seated.

Mallz wrote:The reason why I find the whole Sabbath debate so silly is that Sabbath is a foreshadowing of what is supposed to be..
The Sabbath was given to ancient Hebrews to make sure they spent one day a week to rest in the Lord. To come to Him and know Him.
He didn't want His people working every day ceaselessly which was the norm in the ancient world.
Now, we know the Sabbath was given to us, for us so we may rest and come to the Lord.
'At least one day a week come to me in rest and love. At least once a week pay attention to me'.. is what He is saying..

The Sabbath should be every day. We should be praying ceaselessly in a relationship with Him. That is what we are called to be... in communion constantly.

So why do people try to limit the Sabbath to one day? Or keep making it something it's not?

Soon everyday will be Sabbath and it will just be how things are.. natural.

The Sabbath cannot be claimed as being solely Jewish, or even from Moses, since it was established in the garden of Eden, as part of the creation week.
The law says "remember the Sabbath day" so it already existed before and just had to be remembered, seeing that it was trodden under in Egypt, when the Hebrews were made to work 7 days a week.

The ten commandments were not a shadow of things to come, but the ceremonies and ordinances of the temple service were a shadow of the service by Christ Himself in the heavenly sanctuary. This is explained in detail in the book of Hebrews.

The temple on earth foreshadowed the Lamb of God, and when He came, its services were over. This service began and ended each year, but the heavenly sanctuary only has one service, beginning with the sacrifice of Christ on earth, and ending with Satan as the scapegoat, when Christ returns.

Revelation 11, points to the ark in heaven, with the law of God, of which Moses received a copy on Mt Sinai.

I like the point you made about daily rest in the Lord and daily communication. The Sabbath is the sign and symbol between God and man of this daily rest. Hebrews 4.

UsagiTsukino wrote:One problem the Mosaic Law is the ten commandants and that was from Israelites (Deuteronomy 4:1,44,45 )(Exodus 31:13,16,17) and the gentiles were not under these laws we are the gentiles but I'm being judgment sorry guys. So is it wrong to church on sunday?

If the gentiles are not under the law, then they cannot be guilty of sinning, because "sin is the transgression of the law."
Also anyone who claims that the law does not apply to them, cannot claim to be under the grace of God, because grace is only given by God because the law is broken by people.

If there is no law, then there is no need for grace. You only need grace if there is a broken law.

God's grace covers all of humanity, but if and when they do not progress with the revelation of light on the truth, their names are removed from the book of life. It is the sin against the Holy Spirit to resist the truth and disobey it. It is also a sin to remain in ignorance when opportunity knocks at the door.

The picture that God has given us through the message to the church of Laodicea in Rev 3, is one of compassion and patience, of the Lord waiting at the door and knocking.

The issue of going to church on Sunday, has nothing to do with the law of God, so you can do what you want on Sunday, until it is civilly enforced, and then you will not be allowed to work or watch football on Sunday.

Hey Starhunter, thanks for the reply, but I've got to say, I think your off base here:

Paul, the disciples, and the early Church right up until 400 AD kept the Sabbath, not Sunday, which became official on the pain of economic sanction, torture and death by the Catholic church. The true Christian church went underground for over a thousand years, and still kept the Sabbath.

www.gotquestions.org
An examination of New Testament passages shows us four important points: 1) Whenever Christ appears in His resurrected form and the day is mentioned, it is always the first day of the week (Matthew 28:1, 9, 10; Mark 16:9; Luke 24:1, 13, 15; John 20:19, 26). 2) The only time the Sabbath is mentioned from Acts through Revelation it is for evangelistic purposes to the Jews and the setting is usually in a synagogue (Acts chapters 13–18). Paul wrote, “to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews” (1 Corinthians 9:20). Paul did not go to the synagogue to fellowship with and edify the saints, but to convict and save the lost. 3) Once Paul states “from now on I will go to the Gentiles” (Acts 18:6), the Sabbath is never again mentioned. And 4) instead of suggesting adherence to the Sabbath day, the remainder of the New Testament implies the opposite (including the one exception to point 3 above, found in Colossians 2:16).

Looking more closely at point 4 above will reveal that there is no obligation for the New Testament believer to keep the Sabbath, and will also show that the idea of a Sunday “Christian Sabbath” is also unscriptural. As discussed above, there is one time the Sabbath is mentioned after Paul began to focus on the Gentiles, “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.” (Colossians 2:16–17). The Jewish Sabbath was abolished at the cross where Christ “canceled the written code, with its regulations” (Colossians 2:14).

This idea is repeated more than once in the New Testament: “One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord” (Romans 14:5–6a). “But now that you know God — or rather are known by God — how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? You are observing special days and months and seasons and years” (Galatians 4:9–10).

In point of fact, here too...

that the early Christian church kept Sunday, but there is no proof of that from history or the scriptures.

catholicanswers.com
We see evidence of this in Scripture:

On the first day of the week when we gathered to break bread, Paul spoke to them because he was going to leave on the next day, and he kept on speaking until midnight (Acts 20:7).
On the first day of the week each of you should set aside and save whatever one can afford, so that collections will not be going on when I come (1 Cor. 16:2).
Let no one, then, pass judgment on you in matters of food and drink or with regard to a festival or new moon or Sabbath (Col. 2:16).

christiananswers.com
Although the moral principles expressed in the commandments are reaffirmed in the New Testament, the command to set Saturday apart as a day of rest and worship is the only commandment not repeated. There are very good reasons for this.

New Testament believers are not under the Old Testament Law (Romans 6:14; Galatians 3:24-25; 2 Corinthians 3:7, 11, 13; Hebrews 7:12).

By Christ's resurrection on the first day of the week (Matthew 28:1), His continued appearances on succeeding Sundays (John 20:26), and the descent of the Holy Spirit on Sunday (Acts 2:1), the early church was given the pattern of Sunday worship.

The early church met on Sunday regularly (Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 16:2).

Sunday worship was further hallowed by our Lord who appeared to John in that last great vision on "the Lord's day" (Revelation 1:10).

It is for these reasons that most Christians worship on Sunday, rather than on the Jewish Sabbath.

Sunday was kept by some pagan societies, but generally not by Christians.

I guess, actually,,now that i look at it... here too:

The true Christian church went underground for over a thousand years, and still kept the Sabbath. It was the survival of the true Sabbath through the entire dark ages that allowed the Methodists to pick up on it, and from there it was accepted by people from all denominations, accumulating and growing in the SDA church. Early Seventh Day Adventists were a mix of many denominations and newly converted who learned about the Sabbath.


I'm not sure what you mean by the true christian church, as at that time (from Christ's crucifixion to mid 1500's) there was only one Universal church and only one Christian denomination. The original Christian community from crucifixion until approx 300 a.d. was more of an underground affair, but certainly not the first 1000 years. These people, as far as I can tell and have read, did not keep the Jewish Sabbath at all... you'll need to find that link because I've not found it.

Your own wikileak link says:

Patristic writings attest that by the 2nd century AD, the observance of a corporate day of worship on the first day (Sunday) had become commonplace,[1] in remembrance of the Resurrection of Christ on that day. However, Sabbath worship on the seventh day also continued even into the fourth century in some places.[2][3] The developing Church eventually became uniform in observing the Resurrection together each Sunday (completing its establishment as the "Lord's Day"), and affirming it at the Council of Laodicea (AD 336)

Hardly, "official on the pain of economic sanction, torture and death by the Catholic church"

By the way [2][3] as referenced as bibliography are from a man's work who was an Arian, noted dissenter of the church. Although a church historian, his works are largely considered questionable for their lack of reference, dependent on his thoughts moreso.

I think the premise for your church statements need better conclusion and better reference material for me to go along with. There's just too much other reference materail that disputes your claims.

The Sabbath cannot be claimed as being solely Jewish, or even from Moses, since it was established in the garden of Eden, as part of the creation week.
The law says "remember the Sabbath day" so it already existed before and just had to be remembered, seeing that it was trodden under in Egypt, when the Hebrews were made to work 7 days a week.
The ten commandments were not a shadow of things to come, but the ceremonies and ordinances of the temple service were a shadow of the service by Christ Himself in the heavenly sanctuary. This is explained in detail in the book of Hebrews.

Yes, the law was already established. Even Abraham fulfilled the law through faith without knowing the letters. But the Law was given to a people at a specific time in human development when it's purpose was meant to be known (beautifying the times). But even the Law shall pass away. But the meaning behind it won't; it'll be more revealed with the uncovering of the purpose of reality. Jesus revealed that love by uncovering the purpose of the Law and disarming it by taking it's full sting for us. He freed us of all burdens and showed us it's intent was to point to the need of Christ. Now we are under grace and His command to love Him with all our heart, soul and mind and to love each other.
Mathew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled.
The law will be fulfilled in the future. Then what? Will it be jotted out? Titles passed? I think there won't be a need for a Law. Because we will be living fully which we can't right now. We don't have intimate relations with Him yet. But everything points to that. And Jesus wants us to know that. It's all about being with Him. And the only barriers to that is to not love Him and each other. That's it, nothing else.

What do you think?

I agree wholeheartedly Mallz, Love is the fulfillment of the law, Jesus fulfilled the law, and He says to us, if you love me, keep my commandments. How? we agree by love.

While we live on earth, God has given us the acceptable standard of love in the example of Jesus. And if we ever go astray, the law is our school master to bring us to Christ. The Psalmist says "Thy rod and thy staff comfort me."

The good shepherd does not hit the sheep, He taps them or places the rod as a barrier to danger. That is the office of the law, it leaves us without an excuse.

Essential Sacrifice,
By the way, I am not a member or attendee of any church, so I cannot speak directly for anyone there, but
I gather that you are talking from the standpoint of modern Protestantism, which differs from Catholicism from what I have read.
The official standing of the RC church, seems to be that Sunday is not taught in scripture, and has no scriptural basis, but rather that the church has the authority of God on earth, and it changed the times and laws. See the ten commandments in the catechism.

The nominal Christian churches say that Sunday holiness is taught in scripture, as you have outlined some of their key texts.

So there is a conflict between what people say the Bible teaches on the subject.

The Seventh Day Adventists would have the reasons for keeping the Sabbath, better than I can present.

Personally, I can't see any ground for Sunday keeping in the Bible, and that's coming from reading the scriptures according to the rules of English grammar. So I'm sorry, but I cannot relate to religious viewpoints on that subject.

If the Sabbath was changed at some point in Christian history, then you would think that it was announced in the scriptures, either by prophecy or in the early apostolic church, or especially by Christ. But there is silence on the subject of changing the Sabbath, except in the many texts which show that people have attacked the laws of God and broken the Sabbath Day.

For instance, the term "the Lord's day" - no where in the Bible does it suggest it to be the first day. Jesus said that He is Lord of the Sabbath - so by Biblical definition alone - the "Lord's Day" can only be the 7th day.
The resurrection may be something we all celebrate, but the Bible does not suggest honor for Sunday there.

The disciples gathered for fear of the Jews is not really a Sabbath. The laying aside of goods and money exchange is also not a Sabbath thing, but Sunday, and Paul preached on Saturday night, not Sunday night according to Bible reckoning of days.

The arguments in favor of Sunday, were dismissed by the RC church, which accused the protestant churches to be lame, and still joined to her by doctrine. The Sunday is the RC churches stamp of authority on all the so called protestant churches.
But this is heavily denied by the protestant churches which are in her bed.

Hey Starhunter, I'm Catholic and have my disagreements with your post because, although you have stated certain things i cannot find either in scripture or regular historical references. As i said, if you could provide them for my sake to read, i would be appreciative. Your stated below are the ones I need reference to:

The arguments in favor of Sunday, were dismissed by the RC church, which accused the protestant churches to be lame, and still joined to her by doctrine. The Sunday is the RC churches stamp of authority on all the so called protestant churches.

The true Christian church went underground for over a thousand years, and still kept the Sabbath.

It was the survival of the true Sabbath through the entire dark ages that allowed the Methodists to pick up on it

,

Paul, the disciples, and the early Church right up until 400 AD kept the Sabbath, not Sunday, which became official on the pain of economic sanction, torture and death by the Catholic church.

I have shown where, biblically the 1st day, Sunday was the day the first Christians (mostly, I'm sure not all ) worshiped. Acts 20:7... 1 Corinthians 16:2... The Jewish Sabbath was left behind, Hebrews 7:12 if you will, upon the crucifixion of Jesus, and the new order of Christ began...Mark 16:9... Luke 24:1... John 20:19
I hope these biblical references convince you the 1st day, Sunday, show the immediate cross over from Saturday (Jewish Sabbath) to Sunday worship for our earliest church.

If you can find references supporting your statements above, please show them so I can consider and pray what is being said.

Yes, that is the general consensus about the support for Sunday sacredness. Although there is another class which don't consider any day sacred, yet they still attend church on Sunday, I guess because everyone else does.

Let me take one example you have provided. Hebrews 7:12 Says that if the priesthood is changed so does the law.

Without double checking, this proves the point that the former protestants teach.

But the context - the surrounding texts, show what law this is talking about. Hebrews 7:11
It says that the law was given under the Levitical priesthood. The ten commandments were given before there was a priesthood and a sanctuary, so the law cannot be referring to the ten commandments.
Hebrews 7:5 says that the law here is talking about tithing. There is no law of tithing in the ten commandments.
Hebrews 7:28. The ten commandments have nothing on appointing a priesthood.
Hebrews 7:16,18 "a carnal commandment" the law which applied to the old priesthood was only as good as the longevity of the priest, but Jesus is under the law of an "endless" priesthood -"after the order of Melchizedek."

So it is not talking about the ten commandments at all.

If you do the same check on all the texts provided, you may find that they don't support Sunday at all...

In regards to history, there is false history, rewritten history, and eliminated history, along side true history. If the argument for Sunday sacredness cannot be found in the Bible, it is every likely that people will discover what is true history and what is not. So I would not venture to comment any further on historical claims until it is settled what the Bible says. Otherwise we may be talking in endless circles.

I agree wholeheartedly Mallz, Love is the fulfillment of the law, Jesus fulfilled the law, and He says to us, if you love me, keep my commandments. How? we agree by love.
While we live on earth, God has given us the acceptable standard of love in the example of Jesus. And if we ever go astray, the law is our school master to bring us to Christ. The Psalmist says "Thy rod and thy staff comfort me."
The good shepherd does not hit the sheep, He taps them or places the rod as a barrier to danger. That is the office of the law, it leaves us without an excuse.

I have a kind of scattered response for you SH, sorry in advance!
This is why I have an issue with SDA. I went to one of their universities for 3 years and had the opportunity to 'discuss' theology with a retired colonel who oversaw all of his ministers in the military (can't remember if it was just air force or inclusive of all) and is now teaching at university. My problem with SDA, is they divided the church based off of legalism blatantly defying Christs teachings. They traded Christ for the law. And after studying their theology and my 'discussions' the colonel was adamant of putting his churches teaches above Christ (backing up the SDA stance on theological matters). A girl who was with me who was raised in that faith and questioning her church broke down in tears hearing the stance of the SDA church. I felt bad about that, I should have stayed around for her but was questioning things myself and was during my studies of Jehovas Witnesses.

Just a few supporting verses I failed to incorporate fully into my post :p

Mark 22:32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him. 33 And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

Galatians 6:2 Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ

Matthew 22:37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

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Galatians 3:23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,

Romans 7:6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.3

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes