Extremely confused!Kenny wrote:So what would you call a person who doesn't believe in God, but realizes what a person chooses to call God may exist?RickD wrote:By definition, atheism is a belief that God doesn't exist.B. W. wrote:Edwardmurphy, after reading your responses to Phillip I was struck by how much faith you have in your intellect, reasoning abilities, and self.
Amazing thing faith is, isn't it?
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Talk about blind faith!
Ken
The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics
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Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics
Confused? Let me explain. I don't believe in God, but I realize what someone may choose to call God may exist. Not everyone worships the God of the Bible, Koran, or Torah. Some people worship Nature. Does Nature exist? I believe in your bible there is a story of people worshiping a golden calf. A golden calf is just a hunk of metal. I heard someone claimed he worshipped his money! Does money exist? Does Gold exist? Does nature exist? What these people choose to call God does exist; I recognize that; but I don't call them God, so what would you call me? I call myself Atheist even though I don't fit into that little category you try to fit all Atheists into in order to claim we have faith.RickD wrote:Extremely confused!Kenny wrote:So what would you call a person who doesn't believe in God, but realizes what a person chooses to call God may exist?RickD wrote:By definition, atheism is a belief that God doesn't exist.B. W. wrote:Edwardmurphy, after reading your responses to Phillip I was struck by how much faith you have in your intellect, reasoning abilities, and self.
Amazing thing faith is, isn't it?
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Talk about blind faith!
Ken
Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics
I'd say your in a general category of Agnostic, Kenny. That's just what I see though.
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Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics
I do agree with some of what you say Ken, it is futile and quite wrong in my opinion to say that atheists have faith in atheism, as implied by Christians generally, there is no such thing as having faith to have non-faith, just a play on words I guess.Kenny wrote:Confused? Let me explain. I don't believe in God, but I realize what someone may choose to call God may exist. Not everyone worships the God of the Bible, Koran, or Torah. Some people worship Nature. Does Nature exist? I believe in your bible there is a story of people worshiping a golden calf. A golden calf is just a hunk of metal. I heard someone claimed he worshiped his money! Does money exist? Does Gold exist? Does nature exist? What these people choose to call God does exist; I recognize that; but I don't call them God, so what would you call me? I call myself Atheist even though I don't fit into that little category you try to fit all Atheists into in order to claim we have faith.RickD wrote:Extremely confused!Kenny wrote:So what would you call a person who doesn't believe in God, but realizes what a person chooses to call God may exist?RickD wrote:By definition, atheism is a belief that God doesn't exist.B. W. wrote:Edwardmurphy, after reading your responses to Phillip I was struck by how much faith you have in your intellect, reasoning abilities, and self.
Amazing thing faith is, isn't it?
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Talk about blind faith!
Ken
Ken
Some atheists have faith, like I know some who don't believe in God but do believe in ghosts or some believe aliens exist etc. Having faith comes naturally to all humans, well almost all humans. Some don't have faith in a God/Gods. And its important to realize it and not irritate the other person.
This should go both ways.
I mean do we like when people say we worship a zombie? or we worship a mass murdering-genocide loving-tyrant? I think not.
Its always best, not to misrepresent the people you are talking to. Doing that will never yield the result you desire.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.
I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.
//johnadavid.wordpress.com
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.
I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.
//johnadavid.wordpress.com
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Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics
As for the underlined, if you are open to the possibility that God may exist, then you're not an atheist.Ken wrote:
Confused? Let me explain. I don't believe in God, but I realize what someone may choose to call God may exist. Not everyone worships the God of the Bible, Koran, or Torah. Some people worship Nature. Does Nature exist? I believe in your bible there is a story of people worshiping a golden calf. A golden calf is just a hunk of metal. I heard someone claimed he worshipped his money! Does money exist? Does Gold exist? Does nature exist? What these people choose to call God does exist; I recognize that; but I don't call them God, so what would you call me? I call myself Atheist even though I don't fit into that little category you try to fit all Atheists into in order to claim we have faith.
Ken
Somewhere along the line, someone changed the definition of an atheist. It has meant someone who believes God(or gods) doesn't exist. Atheism, contrary to what many avowed atheists say, IS a belief. It's a belief that God does not exist.
Now if you believe God may exist, you just haven't found enough proof that He does, then you're not an atheist. You're just someone who is trying to be open to the possibility that He exists. At least that's the impression I'm getting.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics
So, if you are reading this, are you a SINCERE agnostic or an INSINSERE one?Now if you believe God may exist, you just haven't found enough proof that He does, then you're not an atheist. You're just someone who is trying to be open to the possibility that He exists. At least that's the impression I'm getting.
And so, if one is at least OPEN to the possibility God exists - and sincerely WANTS TO KNOW the truth of the matter - then they should be diligently searching, studying and PRAYING. Praying? Yes, PRAYING - as IF one is TRULY open to the mere possibility that God may exist, and "if" He actually does, why not do a DIRECT search for Him? Why not, unbeknownst to anyone else, simply ask God TO REVEAL HIMSELF to you? That is, IF you are a SINCERE agnostic. Because there is also such a thing as what I'll call the INSINCERE agnostic - that is, an agnostic who doesn't know whether God exists, but He also doesn't really want to know or actually care. OR, he figures, instead, that if He exists, God should come to him - looking at personally and diligently searching as something that's only for religious folks - which he knows he's clearly not. EVERY sincere agnostic (and atheist) should self-effacingly know the repercussions for his ending/next world-results, if he happens to be wrong. UNLESS, of course, there's NO possibility that there is a God. Which is a belief that, believed with certainty, makes one, instead, an atheist.
Make no mistake about it: an agnostic who doesn't search for God is also a person who is deliberately AVOIDING Him. You certainly don't search for something you don't particularly care about or don't want to find. But the Bible says, "seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you." Or if you build an intellectual/mental/emotional barrier wall, self-designed so as to not let any potentially affirming evidences of God getting through, then... THEY WON'T get through. You get what you seek - as well as what you DON'T seek!
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Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics
I think you are misunderstanding me again. I said I am open to the possibility what a person CHOOSES to call God may exist. Using the example I gave, if a person chooses to call a Golden Calf God, it would be foolish for me to look at this chunk of metal and say it doesn't exist, it would be just as foolish for me to claim he has no right to call it his God. Again; if I recognize what someone might choose to call God may exist, but I don't call it God, what would you call me?RickD wrote:As for the underlined, if you are open to the possibility that God may exist, then you're not an atheist.Ken wrote:
Confused? Let me explain. I don't believe in God, but I realize what someone may choose to call God may exist. Not everyone worships the God of the Bible, Koran, or Torah. Some people worship Nature. Does Nature exist? I believe in your bible there is a story of people worshiping a golden calf. A golden calf is just a hunk of metal. I heard someone claimed he worshipped his money! Does money exist? Does Gold exist? Does nature exist? What these people choose to call God does exist; I recognize that; but I don't call them God, so what would you call me? I call myself Atheist even though I don't fit into that little category you try to fit all Atheists into in order to claim we have faith.
Ken
Somewhere along the line, someone changed the definition of an atheist. It has meant someone who believes God(or gods) doesn't exist. Atheism, contrary to what many avowed atheists say, IS a belief. It's a belief that God does not exist.
Now if you believe God may exist, you just haven't found enough proof that He does, then you're not an atheist. You're just someone who is trying to be open to the possibility that He exists. At least that's the impression I'm getting.
Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics
Hmm..if I recognize what someone might choose to call God may exist, but I don't call it God, what would you call me?
Some people believed a golden calf was God. You obviously see the golden calf is not God, but you believe their belief.
Right?
So the question is..
Do you believe there could be anything existent such as God?
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Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics
THE question is not about golden calves or whatever other imaginary gods people might assert exist. THE question is, do you think there is at least a possibility that the God of the Bible (Father, Son & Spirit), in which Jesus came from Heaven and took on flesh, lived amongst the Jews, suffered, was crucified, was Resurrected/appeared to many, returned to Heaven/will come again exists? The rest of the mumbo-jumbo about who might believe in whatever else, and who are you to deny what OTHERS consider to be god, is irrelevant.
Kenny, DO you or DO YOU NOT believe there is at least a possibility that the God of the Bible exists? As THAT is the ONLY question relevant to the purposes of this board and discussion!
Kenny, DO you or DO YOU NOT believe there is at least a possibility that the God of the Bible exists? As THAT is the ONLY question relevant to the purposes of this board and discussion!
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Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics
Kenny,Ken wrote:
I think you are misunderstanding me again. I said I am open to the possibility what a person CHOOSES to call God may exist. Using the example I gave, if a person chooses to call a Golden Calf God, it would be foolish for me to look at this chunk of metal and say it doesn't exist, it would be just as foolish for me to claim he has no right to call it his God. Again; if I recognize what someone might choose to call God may exist, but I don't call it God, what would you call me?
Ken
Do you leave open the possibility that the God of the bible exists? Yes or no.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
- edwardmurphy
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Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics
Well, if you don't believe in gods then you're an atheist. If you're aware that your neighbor worships his BMW then you're still an atheist - his beliefs have nothing to do with yours and his BMW obviously exists. If you assume that your neighbor's BMW is a god because you've seen him worshiping it, well, I'm not really sure what that makes you, other than silly. An idolator by proxy, perhaps?Kenny wrote:I don't believe in God, but I realize what someone may choose to call God may exist. Not everyone worships the God of the Bible, Koran, or Torah. Some people worship Nature. Does Nature exist? I believe in your bible there is a story of people worshiping a golden calf. A golden calf is just a hunk of metal. I heard someone claimed he worshipped his money! Does money exist? Does Gold exist? Does nature exist? What these people choose to call God does exist; I recognize that; but I don't call them God, so what would you call me? I call myself Atheist even though I don't fit into that little category you try to fit all Atheists into in order to claim we have faith.
Ken
I'm not Ken, but I thank you. Calling atheism a leap of faith, and sticking to that position in the face of all evidence to the contrary, is disingenuous and deliberately irritating. It gets tiresome after a while.neo-x wrote:I do agree with some of what you say Ken, it is futile and quite wrong in my opinion to say that atheists have faith in atheism, as implied by Christians generally, there is no such thing as having faith to have non-faith, just a play on words I guess.
Again, thank you. I appreciate your sincerity and civility.neo-x wrote:I mean do we like when people say we worship a zombie? or we worship a mass murdering-genocide loving-tyrant? I think not.
Its always best, not to misrepresent the people you are talking to. Doing that will never yield the result you desire.
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Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics
Of course atheists have faith in atheism.
As I said before, an atheist is one who believes God does not exist. That's is a belief system, based on a belief that God doesn't exist. It's faith based on what atheists believe the evidence points to, but it's still faith. No different than theists who have faith in God because that's where they believe the evidence points.
As I said before, an atheist is one who believes God does not exist. That's is a belief system, based on a belief that God doesn't exist. It's faith based on what atheists believe the evidence points to, but it's still faith. No different than theists who have faith in God because that's where they believe the evidence points.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics
Agnostic is about knowledge; not belief.Mallz wrote:I'd say your in a general category of Agnostic, Kenny. That's just what I see though.
K
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
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Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics
Excellent points; I agree.neo-x wrote:I do agree with some of what you say Ken, it is futile and quite wrong in my opinion to say that atheists have faith in atheism, as implied by Christians generally, there is no such thing as having faith to have non-faith, just a play on words I guess.
Some atheists have faith, like I know some who don't believe in God but do believe in ghosts or some believe aliens exist etc. Having faith comes naturally to all humans, well almost all humans. Some don't have faith in a God/Gods. And its important to realize it and not irritate the other person.
This should go both ways.
I mean do we like when people say we worship a zombie? or we worship a mass murdering-genocide loving-tyrant? I think not.
Its always best, not to misrepresent the people you are talking to. Doing that will never yield the result you desire.
Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
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Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics
I know the chunk of metal they worship and call God exists.Mallz wrote:Hmm..if I recognize what someone might choose to call God may exist, but I don't call it God, what would you call me?
Some people believed a golden calf was God. You obviously see the golden calf is not God, but you believe their belief.
Right?
There is nothing in existence that I call God.Mallz wrote: So the question is..
Do you believe there could be anything existent such as God?
Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".