Evidence for God from Science

abelcainsbrother wrote:

Audie wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

Audie wrote:In the dept of derailed threads, this one is about Noah's Ark.

The story is nonsense if taken as a world wide flood. This should be stone obvious.

Then there is the whole spectrum of beliefs about big floods and lesser floods and the Black Sea filling up or maybe the Euphrates topped its banks and well maybe its all allegorical anyway.

What else is there to say?

Audie,I've explained a world wide climate change that produced dust in the ice sheets,in the oceans,etc and this climate change dates to Noah's flood.I even showed how certian civilization collapsed because of this climate change.Well let me perhaps give a little more evidence that shows the effect of Noah's flood from a different perspective.

If you want to?look at this link and see if you see the bottle necks that scientists have detected but just don't consider the bible and Noah's flood,and so it seems they are overlooking Noah's flood.Because Adam and Noah are better explanations for these bottle necks and it shows the effects of Noah's flood.First you had Adam then a flood came and then it was Noah.

http://phys.org/news/2015-04-decline-ma ... lture.html

Now ABC, I made two simple requests that I'd like you to honour, for the sake
of worthwhile conversation.

Stay on topic.
No editorializing.

The op ed about what scientists overlook is editorializing.
The topic I asked about, and you've not addressed is your layer of dust in the ice.
Lets keep this super simple.

Just yes/no, please!
1. There was a lot of dust after a world wide flood?
2. Some of it ended up trapped in between layers of ice in Antarctica?

Just give me a simple answer, then we can look at some of the implications.

Yes,however I have not even got into a world wide flood yet.All I've been doing so far is showing that secular science detects world wide climate change that dates to the time of Noah's flood.It needs to be established first that secular science detects something catastrophic happened yet do not see any correlation with Noah's flood.I do believe in a global flood that covered the tops of the mountains but not every Christian agrees with a world wide flood.

1) I'm assuming that's a yes to both questions.
2) As I've been trying to stress, this climate change idea that you've adopted is about 3,000 years away from the biblical date of Noah's flood.

Yeah, I agree with HFD, I researched the world wide dust and all I could find was that it happened in the 500's A.D, not during Noah's time. ABC, can you give a reference to where you found the information saying that a world wide dust occurred in the 2000's B.C and how exactly you are supposed to prove that is a result of the flood (Though I think it was localized). Otherwise your just saying "correlation is causation", which is a fallacy.

HappyFlappyDeist wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

Audie wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

Audie wrote:In the dept of derailed threads, this one is about Noah's Ark.

The story is nonsense if taken as a world wide flood. This should be stone obvious.

Then there is the whole spectrum of beliefs about big floods and lesser floods and the Black Sea filling up or maybe the Euphrates topped its banks and well maybe its all allegorical anyway.

What else is there to say?

Audie,I've explained a world wide climate change that produced dust in the ice sheets,in the oceans,etc and this climate change dates to Noah's flood.I even showed how certian civilization collapsed because of this climate change.Well let me perhaps give a little more evidence that shows the effect of Noah's flood from a different perspective.

If you want to?look at this link and see if you see the bottle necks that scientists have detected but just don't consider the bible and Noah's flood,and so it seems they are overlooking Noah's flood.Because Adam and Noah are better explanations for these bottle necks and it shows the effects of Noah's flood.First you had Adam then a flood came and then it was Noah.

http://phys.org/news/2015-04-decline-ma ... lture.html

Now ABC, I made two simple requests that I'd like you to honour, for the sake
of worthwhile conversation.

Stay on topic.
No editorializing.

The op ed about what scientists overlook is editorializing.
The topic I asked about, and you've not addressed is your layer of dust in the ice.
Lets keep this super simple.

Just yes/no, please!
1. There was a lot of dust after a world wide flood?
2. Some of it ended up trapped in between layers of ice in Antarctica?

Just give me a simple answer, then we can look at some of the implications.

Yes,however I have not even got into a world wide flood yet.All I've been doing so far is showing that secular science detects world wide climate change that dates to the time of Noah's flood.It needs to be established first that secular science detects something catastrophic happened yet do not see any correlation with Noah's flood.I do believe in a global flood that covered the tops of the mountains but not every Christian agrees with a world wide flood.

1) I'm assuming that's a yes to both questions.
2) As I've been trying to stress, this climate change idea that you've adopted is about 3,000 years away from the biblical date of Noah's flood.

How can you say this? I'm a old earth gap theorist and we believe there was a former world full of life that perished then there was a gap of time when God restored the heavens and earth about 6-10,000 years ago and created this world we live in now,we believe in a global world wide flood in Noah's flood.

The science I've brought up dates to the time of Noah's flood,also this climate change effected the climate for a long time after the flood.It is within the margin of error.The last post I posted reflects the science concerning the climate change,like I told Audie there is a lot more science behind this climate change and look at the dates and bottle necks I brought up.This would make sense if God created Adam about 10,000 years ago and then Noah' s flood happened about 8,000 years ago.I do not see how you can say it is off.

ConfusedMan wrote:Yeah, I agree with HFD, I researched the world wide dust and all I could find was that it happened in the 500's A.D, not during Noah's time. ABC, can you give a reference to where you found the information saying that a world wide dust occurred in the 2000's B.C and how exactly you are supposed to prove that is a result of the flood (Though I think it was localized). Otherwise your just saying "correlation is causation", which is a fallacy.

First off you can't seem to grasp that a global flood would be a cause for climate change?Why? Also keep in mind in Noah's flood the fountains of the deep were opened up.Did you see the link I posted that shows that because there are oceans of water inside the earth that this could change the majority perception that comets brought the water to the earth?This means that it is possible the water that makes up the oceans on the earth came from inside the earth.What would this mean to you? Would it make sense to you and make sense in light of Noah's flood in which the fountains of the deep were opened up?

Here is the link again.
http://www.geologypage.com/2014/08/scie ... z3WdC2Xxcq
I'll have to see if I can find the links again if you need more.

abelcainsbrother wrote:

Audie wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

Audie wrote:In the dept of derailed threads, this one is about Noah's Ark.

The story is nonsense if taken as a world wide flood. This should be stone obvious.

Then there is the whole spectrum of beliefs about big floods and lesser floods and the Black Sea filling up or maybe the Euphrates topped its banks and well maybe its all allegorical anyway.

What else is there to say?

Audie,I've explained a world wide climate change that produced dust in the ice sheets,in the oceans,etc and this climate change dates to Noah's flood.I even showed how certian civilization collapsed because of this climate change.Well let me perhaps give a little more evidence that shows the effect of Noah's flood from a different perspective.

If you want to?look at this link and see if you see the bottle necks that scientists have detected but just don't consider the bible and Noah's flood,and so it seems they are overlooking Noah's flood.Because Adam and Noah are better explanations for these bottle necks and it shows the effects of Noah's flood.First you had Adam then a flood came and then it was Noah.

http://phys.org/news/2015-04-decline-ma ... lture.html

Now ABC, I made two simple requests that I'd like you to honour, for the sake
of worthwhile conversation.

Stay on topic.
No editorializing.

The op ed about what scientists overlook is editorializing.
The topic I asked about, and you've not addressed is your layer of dust in the ice.
Lets keep this super simple.

Just yes/no, please!
1. There was a lot of dust after a world wide flood?
2. Some of it ended up trapped in between layers of ice in Antarctica?

Just give me a simple answer, then we can look at some of the implications.

Yes,however I have not even got into a world wide flood yet.All I've been doing so far is showing that secular science detects world wide climate change that dates to the time of Noah's flood.It needs to be established first that secular science detects something catastrophic happened yet do not see any correlation with Noah's flood.I do believe in a global flood that covered the tops of the mountains but not every Christian agrees with a world wide flood.

i asked two questions, and got one "yes".

Does that mean yes to both?

I will try assuming that. Ok, did the dust get onto the ice by being air blown, or water deposited?

In your flood fantasy, how high was the water level compared to sea level today?

Short answer to the questions, and no editorializing svp.

abelcainsbrother wrote:[quote="

How can you say this? I'm a old earth gap theorist and we believe there was a former world full of life that perished then there was a gap of time when God restored the heavens and earth about 6-10,000 years ago and created this world we live in now,we believe in a global world wide flood in Noah's flood.

The science I've brought up dates to the time of Noah's flood,also this climate change effected the climate for a long time after the flood.It is within the margin of error.The last post I posted reflects the science concerning the climate change,like I told Audie there is a lot more science behind this climate change and look at the dates and bottle necks I brought up.This would make sense if God created Adam about 10,000 years ago and then Noah' s flood happened about 8,000 years ago.I do not see how you can say it is off.

What is real and makes sense because it is real is that there was a series of glacial advances and retreats over a period of many tens of thousands of years. Ie, extreme climate changes. Climate is constantly changing.

The last glacial advance ended about 12K years ago, and the ice is still retreating.

Ice core data shows that the last 400,000 years have consisted of short interglacials (10,000 to 30,000 years) about as warm as the present alternated with much longer (70,000 to 90,000 years) glacials substantially colder than present. The new EPICA Antarctic ice core has revealed that between 400,000 and 780,000 years ago, interglacials occupied a considerably larger proportion of each glacial/interglacial cycle, but were not as warm as subsequent interglacials.


Your "flood" date is not just off, there was no flood.

abelcainsbrother wrote:

ConfusedMan wrote:Yeah, I agree with HFD, I researched the world wide dust and all I could find was that it happened in the 500's A.D, not during Noah's time. ABC, can you give a reference to where you found the information saying that a world wide dust occurred in the 2000's B.C and how exactly you are supposed to prove that is a result of the flood (Though I think it was localized). Otherwise your just saying "correlation is causation", which is a fallacy.

First off you can't seem to grasp that a global flood would be a cause for climate change?Why? Also keep in mind in Noah's flood the fountains of the deep were opened up.Did you see the link I posted that shows that because there are oceans of water inside the earth that this could change the majority perception that comets brought the water to the earth?This means that it is possible the water that makes up the oceans on the earth came from inside the earth.What would this mean to you? Would it make sense to you and make sense in light of Noah's flood in which the fountains of the deep were opened up?

Here is the link again.
http://www.geologypage.com/2014/08/scie ... z3WdC2Xxcq
I'll have to see if I can find the links again if you need more.

Yes, I can understand how that would cause a climate change, and I do believe in the flood, but like I said, you still haven't given us the source of information from which you claim that a world wide dust happened shortly after Noah's time. I looked it up and found that it happened in 526 A.D. Also, even if there was a wold wide dust, you must understand that the flood didn't necessarily cause the dust...that is correlation, not causation. Yes, it might be a likely explanation, maybe even the best explanation, but not the only one. And besides, the dates don't even match up at all so I think it is a moot point anyways.

ConfusedMan wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

ConfusedMan wrote:Yeah, I agree with HFD, I researched the world wide dust and all I could find was that it happened in the 500's A.D, not during Noah's time. ABC, can you give a reference to where you found the information saying that a world wide dust occurred in the 2000's B.C and how exactly you are supposed to prove that is a result of the flood (Though I think it was localized). Otherwise your just saying "correlation is causation", which is a fallacy.

First off you can't seem to grasp that a global flood would be a cause for climate change?Why? Also keep in mind in Noah's flood the fountains of the deep were opened up.Did you see the link I posted that shows that because there are oceans of water inside the earth that this could change the majority perception that comets brought the water to the earth?This means that it is possible the water that makes up the oceans on the earth came from inside the earth.What would this mean to you? Would it make sense to you and make sense in light of Noah's flood in which the fountains of the deep were opened up?

Here is the link again.
http://www.geologypage.com/2014/08/scie ... z3WdC2Xxcq
I'll have to see if I can find the links again if you need more.

Yes, I can understand how that would cause a climate change, and I do believe in the flood, but like I said, you still haven't given us the source of information from which you claim that a world wide dust happened shortly after Noah's time. I looked it up and found that it happened in 526 A.D. Also, even if there was a wold wide dust, you must understand that the flood didn't necessarily cause the dust...that is correlation, not causation. Yes, it might be a likely explanation, maybe even the best explanation, but not the only one. And besides, the dates don't even match up at all so I think it is a moot point anyways.

We have a lot of flood believers, who range from allegorical, local, to world wide to hydroplate theory.

What sort of flood do you mean? World wide, 30,000 ft deep to cover Mt Everest?

Audie wrote:

ConfusedMan wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

ConfusedMan wrote:Yeah, I agree with HFD, I researched the world wide dust and all I could find was that it happened in the 500's A.D, not during Noah's time. ABC, can you give a reference to where you found the information saying that a world wide dust occurred in the 2000's B.C and how exactly you are supposed to prove that is a result of the flood (Though I think it was localized). Otherwise your just saying "correlation is causation", which is a fallacy.

First off you can't seem to grasp that a global flood would be a cause for climate change?Why? Also keep in mind in Noah's flood the fountains of the deep were opened up.Did you see the link I posted that shows that because there are oceans of water inside the earth that this could change the majority perception that comets brought the water to the earth?This means that it is possible the water that makes up the oceans on the earth came from inside the earth.What would this mean to you? Would it make sense to you and make sense in light of Noah's flood in which the fountains of the deep were opened up?

Here is the link again.
http://www.geologypage.com/2014/08/scie ... z3WdC2Xxcq
I'll have to see if I can find the links again if you need more.

Yes, I can understand how that would cause a climate change, and I do believe in the flood, but like I said, you still haven't given us the source of information from which you claim that a world wide dust happened shortly after Noah's time. I looked it up and found that it happened in 526 A.D. Also, even if there was a wold wide dust, you must understand that the flood didn't necessarily cause the dust...that is correlation, not causation. Yes, it might be a likely explanation, maybe even the best explanation, but not the only one. And besides, the dates don't even match up at all so I think it is a moot point anyways.

We have a lot of flood believers, who range from allegorical, local, to world wide to hydroplate theory.

What sort of flood do you mean? World wide, 30,000 ft deep to cover Mt Everest?

No, I feel it is more sensible to assume that it was a localized flood. If it was a worldwide flood, then there would be more geological and fossil evidence of such a massive event. Also, hydroplate theory seems pretty dubious if not silly, and I definitely don't agree with ABC's self-made calculations about the water in the earth and how it could cover Mt.Everest. So, yes I believe the original Hebrew indicates a localized flood. I know you don't believe in the flood at all, but hopefully that answers your question.

I think there is a perfectly good chance that the story is a highly embellished version of one or more actual events. There are big floods, and the Tigris-Euphrates is a big flood plain.

As for evidence, yes, there would be massive overwhelming evidence of a world wide flood.

Hydroplate and other flood "theories' are to geology as buck rogers and the space cadets are to NASA

ConfusedMan wrote:

Audie wrote:

ConfusedMan wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

ConfusedMan wrote:Yeah, I agree with HFD, I researched the world wide dust and all I could find was that it happened in the 500's A.D, not during Noah's time. ABC, can you give a reference to where you found the information saying that a world wide dust occurred in the 2000's B.C and how exactly you are supposed to prove that is a result of the flood (Though I think it was localized). Otherwise your just saying "correlation is causation", which is a fallacy.

First off you can't seem to grasp that a global flood would be a cause for climate change?Why? Also keep in mind in Noah's flood the fountains of the deep were opened up.Did you see the link I posted that shows that because there are oceans of water inside the earth that this could change the majority perception that comets brought the water to the earth?This means that it is possible the water that makes up the oceans on the earth came from inside the earth.What would this mean to you? Would it make sense to you and make sense in light of Noah's flood in which the fountains of the deep were opened up?

Here is the link again.
http://www.geologypage.com/2014/08/scie ... z3WdC2Xxcq
I'll have to see if I can find the links again if you need more.

Yes, I can understand how that would cause a climate change, and I do believe in the flood, but like I said, you still haven't given us the source of information from which you claim that a world wide dust happened shortly after Noah's time. I looked it up and found that it happened in 526 A.D. Also, even if there was a wold wide dust, you must understand that the flood didn't necessarily cause the dust...that is correlation, not causation. Yes, it might be a likely explanation, maybe even the best explanation, but not the only one. And besides, the dates don't even match up at all so I think it is a moot point anyways.

We have a lot of flood believers, who range from allegorical, local, to world wide to hydroplate theory.

What sort of flood do you mean? World wide, 30,000 ft deep to cover Mt Everest?

No, I feel it is more sensible to assume that it was a localized flood. If it was a worldwide flood, then there would be more geological and fossil evidence of such a massive event. Also, hydroplate theory seems pretty dubious if not silly, and I definitely don't agree with ABC's self-made calculations about the water in the earth and how it could cover Mt.Everest. So, yes I believe the original Hebrew indicates a localized flood. I know you don't believe in the flood at all, but hopefully that answers your question.

I don't think Audie's mind could be changed no matter what kind of evidence I presented but let me ask you this.You say you believe in a localized flood,and my question is when do you believe it happened? Also you brought up my calculations? My calculations came from NOAA,it is NOAA that says the average depth of the oceans are 14,000 feet but go down over 36,000 feet.The only thing I did was a little research to find out how tall the tallest mountains on land were and Mt Everest is 29,000 feet tall,this means the oceans are deeper than the tallest mountains on land are tall.

I believe the oceans were much shallower before Noah's flood when the fountains of the deep were opened up and the oceans are so deep now because of Noah's flood.When do you believe Noah's flood happened?

How deep are the oceans NOAA?
http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/oceandepth.html

I read the first few chapters of a book on the discovery of the flood account in cuniform of Atrahasis whilst in the library a few days ago, from what I gather the book is the account of an attempt to rebuild the ark described in the cuniform, a good deal smaller than Noah's Ark. Alongside Gilgamesh, Genesis and the other one I've forgotten, they do seem to point towards the ancient near east being very wet indeed at some point in the distant past and there being a theme of divine action and few seafaring survivors.

The argument presented on the main site is rather barren with an odd conclusion:

There are a couple possible explanations for the existence of multiple ancient flood accounts. One - that Genesis was a copy of Gilgamesh - has already been discussed and does not seem to fit the available data. The other possible explanation is that the flood was a real event in the history of mankind that was passed down through the generations of different cultures. If so, the Gilgamesh account seems to have undergone some rather radical transformations. The story is a rather silly myth that bears little resemblance to reality. In contrast, the Genesis account is a logical, seemingly factual account of a historical event. It lacks the obvious mythological aspects of the Gilgamesh epic.

There doesn't seem to be an acknowledgment of the middle ground; that it was once very wet and all accounts of this very wet period have undergone transformation. This would explain the 7 parallels in the opening of the articles and that pretty much all of the differences listed in the table are cultural/contexual in the manner of character names, numbers involved, behaviour/mood of God(s) and local landmarks.

From the article:

1. Flood occurs in the Mesopotamian plain.
2. Main character is warned to build a boat to escape the flood
3. Main character is told to save himself, his family, and a sampling of animals
4. The boats were sealed with tar
5. The boats came to rest on a mountain
6. Birds were released to determine if the waters receded
7. Main character sacrificed an offering

With a slight rewording we have what I would conjecture a few people may well have done in the ancient near east when it was very wet:

1. Flood occurs in the Mesopotamian plain.
2. Character builds a boat to escape the flood
3. Character saves himself, his family, and a sampling of animals
4. The boat was sealed with tar
5. The boat came to rest on a mountain
6. Birds were released to determine if the waters receded
7. Character sacrificed an offering

A common, more ancient, root would perhaps explain the wealth of deluge accounts in almost all cultures but it becomes difficult to distinguish the mythological and the historical.....a distinction which was not always high on the list on the ancients, perhaps for good reason.

Audie wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

Audie wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

Audie wrote:In the dept of derailed threads, this one is about Noah's Ark.

The story is nonsense if taken as a world wide flood. This should be stone obvious.

Then there is the whole spectrum of beliefs about big floods and lesser floods and the Black Sea filling up or maybe the Euphrates topped its banks and well maybe its all allegorical anyway.

What else is there to say?

Audie,I've explained a world wide climate change that produced dust in the ice sheets,in the oceans,etc and this climate change dates to Noah's flood.I even showed how certian civilization collapsed because of this climate change.Well let me perhaps give a little more evidence that shows the effect of Noah's flood from a different perspective.

If you want to?look at this link and see if you see the bottle necks that scientists have detected but just don't consider the bible and Noah's flood,and so it seems they are overlooking Noah's flood.Because Adam and Noah are better explanations for these bottle necks and it shows the effects of Noah's flood.First you had Adam then a flood came and then it was Noah.

http://phys.org/news/2015-04-decline-ma ... lture.html

Now ABC, I made two simple requests that I'd like you to honour, for the sake
of worthwhile conversation.

Stay on topic.
No editorializing.

The op ed about what scientists overlook is editorializing.
The topic I asked about, and you've not addressed is your layer of dust in the ice.
Lets keep this super simple.

Just yes/no, please!
1. There was a lot of dust after a world wide flood?
2. Some of it ended up trapped in between layers of ice in Antarctica?

Just give me a simple answer, then we can look at some of the implications.

Yes,however I have not even got into a world wide flood yet.All I've been doing so far is showing that secular science detects world wide climate change that dates to the time of Noah's flood.It needs to be established first that secular science detects something catastrophic happened yet do not see any correlation with Noah's flood.I do believe in a global flood that covered the tops of the mountains but not every Christian agrees with a world wide flood.

i asked two questions, and got one "yes".

Does that mean yes to both?

I will try assuming that. Ok, did the dust get onto the ice by being air blown, or water deposited?

In your flood fantasy, how high was the water level compared to sea level today?

Short answer to the questions, and no editorializing svp.

Yes! No the world wide drought happened after Noah's flood and the dust produced by the drought got trapped in the ice sheets but before the drought at the time of the flood the fountains of the deep were opened up,the water that is now on the earth spewed out of the earth,filling the surface of the earth with water,the water level rose up until every mountain on land on the earth world wide was covered,then the water that came out of the earth settled pushing the parts of the earth's crust down from which the water had came out of,for every action there is a reaction.

You must understand that it was not because of the rain the earth was flooded but the fountains of the deep,the rain was produced as the water spewed out of the earth,the fountains of the deep into the atmosphere causing it to rain as the water condensed to rain. There is no hydroplate at all,just a sound scientific theory. Backed up by science that shows the water on the earth came from inside the earth which I gave a link.

Genesis 7:19-20"And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth,and all the high hills,that were under the whole heaven were covered,fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail,and the mountains were covered."

Genesis 7:11-12" In the six hundredth year of Noah's life,in the second month,the seventh day of the month,the same day were all the great fountains of the deep broken up,and the windows of heaven were opened up.And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights."

Genesis 8:2" The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped,and the rain from heaven was restrained."