Support Gay Marriage Cakes

[RickD]

dan wrote:

We all are on the Autism spectrum, I am just in a different area to you, I am more towards the Asperger range, so don't feel bad unless you are going to feel bad for yourself also.

It is not a disease or a disorder, it is just a personality type and it runs in the family, my Dad and my eldest son are the same, the younger two we don't know yet, but we suspect the youngest may be and the middle is probably not.

Did someone really tell you that?

It almost sounds like you're saying that we all have autism, just different degrees. You really believe that?

[Danieltwotwenty]

dan wrote:

We all are on the Autism spectrum, I am just in a different area to you, I am more towards the Asperger range, so don't feel bad unless you are going to feel bad for yourself also.

It is not a disease or a disorder, it is just a personality type and it runs in the family, my Dad and my eldest son are the same, the younger two we don't know yet, but we suspect the youngest may be and the middle is probably not.

Did someone really tell you that?

It almost sounds like you're saying that we all have autism, just different degrees. You really believe that?

The is how both my sons psychologist and paediatrician explained it, and everything I have read to date has supported this idea.

[RickD]

dan wrote:

We all are on the Autism spectrum, I am just in a different area to you, I am more towards the Asperger range, so don't feel bad unless you are going to feel bad for yourself also.

It is not a disease or a disorder, it is just a personality type and it runs in the family, my Dad and my eldest son are the same, the younger two we don't know yet, but we suspect the youngest may be and the middle is probably not.

Did someone really tell you that?

It almost sounds like you're saying that we all have autism, just different degrees. You really believe that?

The is how both my sons psychologist and paediatrician explained it, and everything I have read to date has supported this idea.

Wow. I don't know what to say. Let's just leave it at that.

[neo-x]

Question D220. If a "legalistic" Christian went into a cake shop, and ordered a cake with the message "Say NO to Gay Marriage". The baker just attended her daughter's ceremony where she vowed her love for another woman, and so the baker is really passionate about having laws passed that allow for and recognise "gay marriage". Should the baker make the cake for this Christian fellow?

If it was me, yes I would make it, but I would let them know that I don't support their idea and offer them a different perspective.

So I'm clear though, you would reject making a cake that supported ISIS killing gay people?

Making such a cake would be illegal, as it is hate speech.

Only is some countries. Honour killings are also allowed in Pakistan.
But, be honest with me. Law or no law, you'd not make it would you?

They are not allowed by Pakistani law and constitution, just so this is clear.

[Kurieuo]

If it was me, yes I would make it, but I would let them know that I don't support their idea and offer them a different perspective.

So I'm clear though, you would reject making a cake that supported ISIS killing gay people?

Making such a cake would be illegal, as it is hate speech.

Only is some countries. Honour killings are also allowed in Pakistan.
But, be honest with me. Law or no law, you'd not make it would you?

They are not allowed by Pakistani law and constitution, just so this is clear.

Thanks Neo-X, my mistake. I'd assumed as I recently heard 1000s of women are still killed each year. Rather, there is often a failure of the authorities to prevent these killings by investigating and punishing the perpetrators. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honour_ki ... n_Pakistan)

[Danieltwotwenty]

I have a question for K and Rick which I thought of last night, I know it was me who ceased the conversation, but I didn't feel I had anything new to add, but now I do.

Say I am a paramedic, but I hold deeply religious convictions that all people of colour are the spawn of Satan and don't deserve life. In your view would I be right in refusing life saving treatment at the scene of an accident to a person of colour because it goes against my conscience and religious convictions?

You could even use the same scenario for a person who is gay, I think the laws were changed recently in some states in the US that actually could allow this to happen.

[Kurieuo]

What I see in these words is kind of what I was getting with my own questions with supporting ISIS with a pro-death message of gays, or honour killings. I was purposefully trying to pick example you thought were morally bad.

I believe you would not want to sell yourself into making such cakes. But why? Because you believe such messages are morally wrong, and you'd not want any part in supporting them. At least, I hope you wouldn't.

Clearly I do not believe such is right to let another die, when you can help. Some people disagree that we have a responsibility to help another person if they're in trouble and we can help them. What I see is the foundational thing we're really disagreeing over here, is that homosexuality is wrong. As I reasoned from both nature and Christianity, it is morally wrong and is even presenting in Scripture as an affront to God (Romans 1).

The issue as I see it, isn't that the person is refusing to make the cake, which they refuse on the basis of their good conscience to God (and no one's life is at stake if they don't write the message on top of the cake). Rather, the true issue between us is that that Neo-X and yourself do not see homosexuality as morally wrong, or harmful to anyone, or an affront to God.

If people are gay by design, biologically, or what-have-you, then the person making the cake is just being stupid not writing the damn message on top. Right? They're a bigot, because they're somehow imposing their morality onto others, and they're clearly wrong because there is nothing wrong with being gay. And that, is what society when it hauls a Christian cake maker before court is being taught a lesson on when they don't comply with writing a message they strongly disagree with.

[Kurieuo]

Btw, I found this video quite interesting. I fully support Muslims' right to refuse, what about you? To make them comply, is to force them to do something clearly against their beliefs. IS, to force your morality upon them.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgWIhYAtan4

[RickD]

Dan wrote:

Say I am a paramedic, but I hold deeply religious convictions that all people of colour are the spawn of Satan and don't deserve life. In your view would I be right in refusing life saving treatment at the scene of an accident to a person of colour because it goes against my conscience and religious convictions?

No. Here's an example of an oath that paramedics must recite, and hold to:

I SOLEMNLY PLEDGE to consecrate my life to the service of humanity;
I WILL GIVE to my teachers the respect and gratitude that is their due;
I WILL PRACTICE my profession with conscience and dignity;
THE HEALTH OF MY PATIENT will be my first consideration;
I WILL RESPECT the secrets that are confided in me, even after the patient has died;
I WILL MAINTAIN by all the means in my power, the honour and the noble traditions of the medical profession;
MY COLLEAGUES will be my sisters and brothers;
I WILL NOT PERMIT considerations of age, disease or disability, creed, ethnic origin, gender, nationality, political affiliation, race, sexual orientation, social standing or any other factor to intervene between my duty and my patient;
I WILL MAINTAIN the utmost respect for human life;
I WILL NOT USE my medical knowledge to violate human rights and civil liberties, even under threat;
I MAKE THESE PROMISES solemnly, freely and upon my honour.

And again, for the umpteenth time, nobody is saying it's ok to refuse to provide service to a gay person, just because he is gay.

I hope you understand the situation that occurred.

[Danieltwotwenty]

You are wrong K, I see homosexuality as a product of a fallen world, just as I see divorce a product of a fallen world, even killing, greed and dare I say eating meat (I am not vegetarian). Where we differ is that I think allowances should be made, and grace and mercy should be shown. There have been plenty of things that God has allowed all through the Bible, even divorce, even killing other people, even slavery and even the consumption of the animals he created. God shows grace and mercy towards us because we now live in a world where sin is prevalent, and we in turn should show grace and mercy towards others and make allowances.

Homosexuality and homosexual relationships may not be an ideal, but sometimes we have to work with what we have been given. Homosexuality is not a choice and neither is seeking a close bond relationship, both are inbuilt desires that we are born with, to deny these desires can have disastrous effects on the individual and usually results in things like suicide, depression and anxiety. It is a cruel joke to be born in such a way and then to be denied what is so intrinsic to being a human being.

I believe that this is not a problem of what we view as sin or not, I believe it is a problem of grace and mercy. Supplying a cake with a message is no more or no less supportive of a person lifestyle as it is supplying a cake to an obese person or supply a cake with no message at all. It is plain and simple discrimination against a people who are just trying to live their lives as best they can with what they were given, they are not violating anyone else's basic human rights or trying to impose their beliefs on anyone else.

To me it seems you want to pick and choose when, how, who to and who can apply their religious beliefs in any given situation. It seems to be a very inconsistent and hypocritical application of religious law.

[Philip]

K: What I see is the foundational thing we're really disagreeing over here, is that homosexuality is wrong.

Boom! That's it!

Dan: Homosexuality is not a choice...

It's either a choice OR God created people with inner desires that A) He says are an abomination when practiced, and B) holds them up with unrepentant adulterers, etc., as those who will not be saved. Does God give a desire He says is a terrible sin? Do you not believe what God warns about in Scripture concerning the unrepentant practice of homosexuality?

Dan: ... and neither is seeking a close bond relationship, both are inbuilt desires that we are born with...

We are BORN with a sin nature - why would you be surprised that what comes natural to man (desire to sin), is any different when it comes to the sin of practicing homosexuality?

Dan: To deny these desires can have disastrous effects on the individual and usually results in things like suicide, depression and anxiety. It is a cruel joke to be born in such a way and then to be denied what is so intrinsic to being a human being.

The behaviors inherit in homosexuality lead to many negative consequences that are FAR beyond the percentages for heterosexuals. Of course, many heterosexuals are not living out their sexuality as God instructed either. But the high margin of damage should tell you something.

Dan: I believe that this is not a problem of what we view as sin or not, I believe it is a problem of grace and mercy. Supplying a cake with a message is no more or no less supportive of a person lifestyle as it is supplying a cake to an obese person or supply a cake with no message at all. It is plain and simple discrimination against a people who are just trying to live their lives as best they can with what they were given, they are not violating anyone else's basic human rights or trying to impose their beliefs on anyone else.

Bullcrap! Then force the gay baker to decorate cakes a wedding cake so that it reads: "Marriage as God ordained it: Adam & Eve - one man and one woman!" Is that okay? AND, why, if I wanted a cake decorated like that, must I ONLY choose a GAY baker's shop? If they refuse me, has that really damaged my ability to get such a cake? Are we to think people can't take their business where someone will accommodate them? What hogwash that statement is! Make the atheist baker celebrate Christ on a cake. Etc!

[Danieltwotwenty]

It is a shame you cannot block mod posts, sigh!

Especially when they are not commenting in an official capacity, it's discrimination.

[Danieltwotwenty]

Dan wrote:

Say I am a paramedic, but I hold deeply religious convictions that all people of colour are the spawn of Satan and don't deserve life. In your view would I be right in refusing life saving treatment at the scene of an accident to a person of colour because it goes against my conscience and religious convictions?

No. Here's an example of an oath that paramedics must recite, and hold to:

I SOLEMNLY PLEDGE to consecrate my life to the service of humanity;
I WILL GIVE to my teachers the respect and gratitude that is their due;
I WILL PRACTICE my profession with conscience and dignity;
THE HEALTH OF MY PATIENT will be my first consideration;
I WILL RESPECT the secrets that are confided in me, even after the patient has died;
I WILL MAINTAIN by all the means in my power, the honour and the noble traditions of the medical profession;
MY COLLEAGUES will be my sisters and brothers;
I WILL NOT PERMIT considerations of age, disease or disability, creed, ethnic origin, gender, nationality, political affiliation, race, sexual orientation, social standing or any other factor to intervene between my duty and my patient;
I WILL MAINTAIN the utmost respect for human life;
I WILL NOT USE my medical knowledge to violate human rights and civil liberties, even under threat;
I MAKE THESE PROMISES solemnly, freely and upon my honour.

And again, for the umpteenth time, nobody is saying it's ok to refuse to provide service to a gay person, just because he is gay.

I hope you understand the situation that occurred.

So what I am hearing here is that you want to pick and choose when you will and will not apply your religious beliefs.

[Kurieuo]

Here are some actual cases that are going on, I can't believe that you and Neo-X would support such cases being brought against Christians??

• An article by about a Lesbian supporting business' right to choose not to participate in gay weddings: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/11 ... ide-event/
• Baker sued for not wanting to participate in gay wedding, though would serve as a customer -- clear case that discriminating against the theme not the customer, but he lost case. Currently appealing.
  http://www.adflegal.org/detailspages/ca ... p-v.-craig
• Florist sued by Washington State Attorney, then later the couple for declining to make flowers for a long time customer's wedding. She had served this customer for over 9 years so she was not discriminating the customer, she did not want to be involved in the gay wedding. http://www.adflegal.org/detailspages/ca ... e-stutzman

More cases:

• http://www.adflegal.org/detailspages/ca ... v.-willock
• http://www.adflegal.org/detailspages/ca ... commission

Other discriminatory cases where Christians/people are being taken to court over their beliefs:

• http://www.adflegal.org/for-attorneys/cases/

I encourage you to read over these, for I really can't fathom that if you truly knew what is going on, that you'd support such. Otherwise, welcome to an Orwellian society where people can be happy and live in harmony without bigoted Christians like myself and non-Christians who stand up for libertarian values, a world in individuals aren't forced to sacrifice his or her values.

[Danieltwotwenty]

I don't need to read them as I am not supporting forcing people to do anything, all I said was that I personally would supply the goods for the reasons I listed. People should be able to act how they please (within reason), but I can also not agree with it in principle, such is a free and democratic society.

Hey!! Stop picking on the glorious Ministry Of Love, next you will be hanging out to dry our glorious leader Kim Yong Un.